Anyone else read, "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" by Josh Harris?

[acheronbeach]

I just got it from the secondhand bookstore.

The book is less fundie than I expected - it encourages young men and women to go out and do fun things in groups (unchaperoned!) and blatantly says that the only difference between courtship and dating is that Harris wanted a different word to convey "dating with the single intent to marry." It's got lots of the fundie taglines in it like "giving away pieces of your heart."

It's also full of horribly awkward metaphors, such as comparing courtship to marshmallows, or comparing lust to nausea caused by overeating sugar.

[dawbs]

I wonder if anyone will ever get away with doing an expose/follow up to all the happy couples who are 'real life examples' in it...ya know, the ones who aren't happily married anymore.

[let-them-eat-cake]

I wonder if anyone will ever get away with doing an expose/follow up to all the happy couples who are 'real life examples' in it...ya know, the ones who aren't happily married anymore.

A documentary exploring if courtships really spare you from heartbreak (which is no)??? Sounds fun! :D

[maybeizfundie]

I read it in my teens, and oddly did not take away the kind of super-fundy-betrothal message that a lot of people seemed too. It is kind of weird to me. Like, was there another IKDGB book that I didn't read, or something?

What I got out of it was an emphasis on the sexual ethic involving no sex before marriage, and Harris' own beliefs about what was a wise course for reaching marriage with that ethic intact. He felt that it was not a great idea to get involved in deeply romantic, everything-but-sex physically involved relationships before one is ready for marriage, based on his own experiences and percieved failures in that regard. And that deeply romantic relationships should be begun only with the goal of marriage in mind, not flippantly or just for fun. It seemed to me that the details of how and when and with what method were largely left up to the opinion of the reader.

[buddingmedievalist]

I remember in high school we had a mandatory thing where we had to go to school with our parents a couple of evenings and discuss this book. My dad went with me and my brother (one parent was sufficient for more than one kid) and the three of us talked about other things because my dad thought a) the book was strange and b) the fact that we were required to go for school was weird. I had read Harris' book in maybe 9th grade and thought it was good, but by the time I got to 11th grade and had a boyfriend, I didn't buy it anymore

[bananacat]

One of my friends read it in high school, and totally bought into it. She wasn't fundie in any other ways though. She was shy and awkward and afraid of dating, so this was her way to just avoid the entire thing with an excuse that made her feel superior. Suddenly she changed from the awkward girl who was too shy to approach a boy and too quiet for a boy to ever notice her, to a holy warrior who was just too good for all that stuff anyway. I didn't stay close with her after high school, but from what I understand, when she got to college she started dating normally and eventually got married.

[acheronbeach]

I wonder if anyone will ever get away with doing an expose/follow up to all the happy couples who are 'real life examples' in it...ya know, the ones who aren't happily married anymore.

For those who don't know, the foreword on my edition (2nd ed.) is written by Sam Torode, of the Sam Torode/Bethany Patchin marriage implosion.

[mystweaver]

And the Megan/Kerrin couple in the book was the subject of much discussion over on SGM Survivors a few months ago. 2 out of how many happy couples in the book are no longer couples?

[Austin]

Josh Harris is such a

[acheronbeach]

And the Megan/Kerrin couple in the book was the subject of much discussion over on SGM Survivors a few months ago. 2 out of how many happy couples in the book are no longer couples?

That said, I find it weird that so many "courtship couples" seem to focus on the role of the parents.

In the book, Harris basically says that your parents should know what's going on in your life and that they - or your pastor or another person you turn to for guidance - may be a better judge of character than you are, and you should probably ask their opinion about the person you're considering for marriage.

But he definitely tells young, single Christians to get out, get jobs, get mission trips, join clubs, and become good friends with fellow Christian women or men in groups - he suggests bible studies, going to movies, going for coffee, etcetera. After you're friends with them, and spend lots of time together, you'll get to know whether they'll be good marriage material. Not this "daddy will approve and find me a man" stuff.

[Guest Anonymous]

Two basic questions, did Josh ever date? Has he ever kissed a woman?

[acheronbeach]

Two basic questions, did Josh ever date? Has he ever kissed a woman?

He apparently made out with several young ladies and dated quite a few.

And if you see the back cover of the book, you'll know why. He was quite defrauding as a 21-year-old. :D

[liltwinstar]

He got married several years ago and has 3 kids (I think). If I recall correctly, his wife had dated and had relationships before she was "saved" and before she met Josh, and he admitted that she was *not* the kind of girl he thought he'd fall for. I had hopes that he was becoming more moderate and more open minded, but then he started pastoring the SGM church and I lost hope.

I never read I Kissed Dating Goodbye - I think he wrote it when he was 16 or 17 or something like that. Later, he wrote Boy Meets Girl, which was more focused on adult relationships. I do remember that in Boy Meets Girl, he said that if you didn't like or want to marry the person you were considering, you shouldn't marry that person...which is, you know, good advice.

He did also write something called The Dream (I think) where a woman is getting married and standing with her at the altar are all the other women her soon-to-be husband has "shared pieces of his heart" with. It was disturbing. That said, Josh did have more of a sense of humor than other homeschoolers - he had a comic strip that ran in his New Attitude Magazine and it regularly mocked the oddness of homeschool culture. Can't remember if Josh himself wrote it or if it was written by someone else, but Jost published it so he must have liked it. In that strip they created a fake "perfect" homeschooler named Trevor who got up at 3am to milk the cows before memorizing all of the Gospel of Luke and then helping out with his 30 siblings. This "Trevor" person was also so committed to courtship that he was going to have his Grandparents pick his wife, because he figured that if his parents were wiser than him, his Grandparents were wiser still and would pick a better wife. It made me crack up at the time.

[formergothardite]

He apparently made out with several young ladies and dated quite a few.

And if you see the back cover of the book, you'll know why. He was quite defrauding as a 21-year-old. :D

I remember being quite defrauded by him when his book first came out. I never read it, though, just looked at his picture.

[Guest Anonymous]

I went to his ministry page. I much prefer to include Tullian Tchividjian in some non consensual fantasy action.

[acheronbeach]

I went to his ministry page. I much prefer to include Tullian Tchividjian in some non consensual fantasy action.

He hasn't aged so well.

Trust me when I say he was truly beautiful as a younger man.

Then again, I looked up that Tullian gentleman, and he did nothing for me (he reminds me of The Situation on Jersey Shore). Maybe it's just different tastes. :)

[Guest Anonymous]

He hasn't aged so well.

Trust me when I say he was truly beautiful as a younger man.

Then again, I looked up that Tullian gentleman, and he did nothing for me (he reminds me of The Situation on Jersey Shore). Maybe it's just different tastes. :)

Yea I think its just taste. And Tullian is a grandson of Billy G. so it would be ever so defrauding, esp since I'm about thirty years older than he :dance:

[Black Aliss]

That said, I find it weird that so many "courtship couples" seem to focus on the role of the parents.

In the book, Harris basically says that your parents should know what's going on in your life and that they - or your pastor or another person you turn to for guidance - may be a better judge of character than you are, and you should probably ask their opinion about the person you're considering for marriage.

Riiight, and we saw how well that worked out for Autumn. Fortunately she had parents who were also willing to listen to what their daughter was saying, instead of trusting that God's perfect plan for her life would work out.

[Shirley MacLaine]

One book I thought was a bit worse than I Kissed Dating Goodbye that was popular with youth group kids in my high school was Dateable: Are You? Are They? by Justin Lookadoo. What a douche almighty.

[acheronbeach]

Riiight, and we saw how well that worked out for Autumn. Fortunately she had parents who were also willing to listen to what their daughter was saying, instead of trusting that God's perfect plan for her life would work out.

What I was trying to get across was that it's a very, very small part of the book - most of Harris's book is about how YOU need to make friends with the opposite sex. You need to go out and meet them, have fun with them. The small part about parents is more focusing on how your parents are your allies and you should confide and trust in them.

And yet, that's what fundies seem to focus on. Parents, parental control, parental choice... it's bizarre.

[Lainey]

There was a book I read that I can't remember the name of. I'll try to describe it and maybe someone will know what I'm talking about, because now you've all got me wondering if that couple is still together.

Okay, so it was written by a couple where the guy was not a virgin when he married, but his wife was. He said he regretted that, because he felt it made his wife insecure about his feelings for her. He was older than her, and at first he was concerned that it was Satan telling him that he liked her. There was some part about how they needed money for something (the wedding, maybe?), and "God provided" because they found the money they needed in a coat pocket. I also think there was something about a train, but I have no idea what that was about. Maybe they had to take a train together--alone--but didn't have sex? I can't remember.

[GenerationCedarchip]

I read it in my teens, and oddly did not take away the kind of super-fundy-betrothal message that a lot of people seemed too. It is kind of weird to me. Like, was there another IKDGB book that I didn't read, or something?

What I got out of it was an emphasis on the sexual ethic involving no sex before marriage, and Harris' own beliefs about what was a wise course for reaching marriage with that ethic intact. He felt that it was not a great idea to get involved in deeply romantic, everything-but-sex physically involved relationships before one is ready for marriage, based on his own experiences and percieved failures in that regard. And that deeply romantic relationships should be begun only with the goal of marriage in mind, not flippantly or just for fun. It seemed to me that the details of how and when and with what method were largely left up to the opinion of the reader.

This is my impression of the book, too. I read it when it first came out and this was really what courtship was like when I was still fundie. The stuff I see on fundie blogs now is much newer and it's another aspect of life that seems to be getting more and more restrictive as folks outdo themselves to see who can be the fundiest. You see it in many parts of life - in the fundie world, modesty rules are getting more well-defined and stricter, ditto for courtship and education (private Christian school not good enough anymore, etc...). That's one big part of fundie life that scares me. I could see the legalism increasing as I got older and eventually it started to overtake the faith, imho.

[Lainey]

Anybody know what book I'm talking about up there^?

ETA: I realize I'm talking to myself at this point, but I think it may have been "When God Writes Your Love Story" by Eric and Leslie Ludy. But I'm not sure.

[Trynn]

I read the book as a freshman in high school. This was a while back, so parts of it are a bit fuzzy, but from what I remember it wasn't really all that extreme. His definition of courtship doesn't, from what I remember, sound anything like what fundies are doing today.

[AnnoDomini]

His Perfect Faithfullness, by the Ludys, yes. I read that too. Bought into it too, all that purity and pieces of the heart and all. I'm not sure if I regret those years but I no longer am a courtship-only person.

When my parents first encouraged me to read HPF, I got kind of angry and didn't. I thought, hah, there's no such thing as a godly biblical romance--if one does things the way the Bible supposedly says, the romance is entirely removed.