"Fertility Stewardship"

[apple1]

But this amount of money seems like a lot to you because you actually care about your children and want to give them a full life. It's much cheaper to raise a fundie QF kid because you don't have to pay for frivolous things like sports, hobbies, clubs, nutritious food, or adequate clothing. Fundies don't care how much it costs to raise a typical child..

all true

[longskirtlotsakids]

Laughing sooooo hard right now... looked up the maker of the film on Vimeo. They have a website!!!! And it's HILARIOUS. Their concept about gravity alone should scare anyone away from the SOTDRT.

familygravity dot com

Their "media" page is actually making me a little sad. They have a movie box cover with a little fake award logo in the corner. Have these dolts ever even studied the major and minor film awards? That is NOT a Palm D'Ores award bucko, no way. It's like the sad little Chinese knockoffs of popular toys you see in ChinaTown stores. Even a 5 year old is going to know that is NOT a My Little Pony, and even a 13 year old is going to know that "Hearing God" isn't BrokeBack Mountain.

They need to expand their prop inventory. That same vase of brown eyed susans appears on the dining room table in two different movies. They also need to teach the concept of setting and how it influences the storyline. In the "hearing God" trailer it was painfully obvious the "doctors office" is someone's bedroom.

The thought of youngsters attending this "filmakers camp" and thinking they are going to come away with anything relevant to filmmaking is frustrating and sad.

[Visionoyahweh]

Well, you become fertile at age 14. So... at what point do they change out the film from a young 20's couple to a couple of 13 year olds? I mean, it's the same premise- if women are just babypoppers anyway, why bother with such trifles like high school? If it's a shame to not have babies when you are 25, why wait ten years from age 15 on? After all, everything else... like being able to drive a car, rent a home, etc.. that's selfish desires!

You beat me to it. A girl can be fertile at 11. If she gets married at 20 that's at least 10 blessings that will never be.

Won't SOMEONE think of the holocaust of middle school fetuses? :cry:

[atheistjd]

You beat me to it. A girl can be fertile at 11. If she gets married at 20 that's at least 10 blessings that will never be.

Won't SOMEONE think of the holocaust of middle school fetuses? :cry:

All those dying eggs :eusa-violin:

ETA: My best friend never misses an opportunity to remind me that my eggs are dying while I waste time in grad school :think:

[liltwinstar]

You know, I've been thinking how out-of-touch this whole fertility cult/have-as-many-"blessings"-as-possible mindset is with historical Christiainity, and even, from what I can tell, with some aspects of Orthodox Judiasm.

I guess I'm thinking that in Catholic church, Eastern Orthodox Church, and Orthodox Judiasm, there is a lot of expectation of chastity/abstinance, either for life for certain individuals in the community (monastics who take vows of chastity, priests), or during certain times within marriage itself (as for Orthodox Jews who do the no-touch thing, or Orthodox Christians who are expected to abstain from sex even if married on all the "fasting days" of the year, which if you count them up, is about half the time).

It seems that in these more historical expressions of faith, there is the understanding that God bestows the blessings of food, family, happiness, etc etc upon people - but it is also the responsibility of people to use those blessings appropriately. Thus, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox Christians, and Jews have specific fasting days, for example, where they either abstain from all food or from certain categories of food as a way of humbling oneself in the face of God's goodness. Further, at least in Catholic and Eastern Orthodox belief, one must be willing to sacrifice one's (adult) child or children to the church/God through the monastic or priestly path (when an adult becomes a monastic, he/she gives up the family name, rights to inherit, etc - plus of course, he/she does not have children).

Anyway, I guess my point is that the older versions of Christianity do not worship fertility/sex within marriage the way that these modern Dominionists do. In fact, when I was in Orthodox church, we were taught that sex was a "consolation" for the difficulties of earthly life - sort of a necessary evil, albeit a pleasant one. It seems to me that in the historical branches of Christianity and within Orthodox Judiasm, there is the expectation that sex and fertility are to be controlled by the Church or by tradition - just because you are married doesn't mean that you have a license to have all kinds of sex and all kinds of babies. In contrast, the Patrio/Dominionist view seems to suggest that sex/babies are a right of Christian couples, and that there should be no checks on either sex or fertility as long as sex occurrs within a "covenant" marriage.

BTW, I'm not trying to say that the Catholics/Eastern Orthodox/Orthodox Jews have it all right in terms of teachings on sex and fertility. I mean, if they work for you, great - although personally, I don't like anyone telling me what to do in my bedroom. My only point is that these new Dominionists are way out of step with the some of the traditional practices regarding sexuality (and fertility) within marriage, and I think that's both interesting and disturbing.

[GeoBQn]

In Orthodox Judaism, there is the commandment to "be fruitful and multiply." However, the various rabbinical commentaries determined that all you need to fulfill the commandment is to have two children, a boy and a girl. (If your first two children are the same sex, having a third child will fulfill the commandment.) To quote a play I directed about orthodox women:

Woman #1: But Hashem said to "be fruitful and multiply!"

Woman #2: I don't think He meant singlehandedly.

[Bozoette]

I love (in the most snarky way possible) that the word "Blessings" is misspelled on the family gravity site. It's right above the trailer for the Blessings Missed movie. Hee!

[Katiebug]

We're one of those awful couples who postponed childbearing until our late 20s/early 30s. I was 29 and my husband was 31 when our daughter was born, and we had been married for more than 5 years at that time. In those 5 years he finished his bachelor's degree, I finished a master's, we bought a house, and we struggled with the economy causing him to be laid off three freaking times between 2008 and 2010 (the last was when I was 20 weeks pregnant).

We DO wish that we could have started our family a few years earlier than we did, but Little Bug came along at the right time for us. We're only going to have one or two more, and while daycare is insanely expensive it's not like helping to pay for college for 2-3 kids is going to be much cheaper. We can space our kids out in a comfortable manner. Once they're in school I'll be able to make a career change while I'm still young enough to spend 20+ years in the new one.

Our church would view "fertility stewardship" as couples discerning together what the appropriate family size and child spacing would be for them. I kind of prefer that to the idea of "OMG, have babies young and often for Jesus!" mentality of the QFers.

[dairyfreelife]

"By that time their fertility isn't what it once was."

Ugh, this just repulsed me. As a person who has struggled with reproductive issues since high school, these people can stfu. What do these morons say to young women in their late teens and early 20s who can't have chlidren? It's not always an issue about delaying until you are ready then. What about their so-called "blessings missed"? My fertility was fine when I was 14, should I have had a baby then? How stupid can you be? There is no way to know when someone's fertility will start to have problems. Some people have no trouble conceiving well into their 40s.

Also, it is wrong to say that those who wait to have children are missing out. Some people make better parents young. My parents had my sister and I in their 20s. They had my brother in their 30s and I think they were better parents when they were younger. They got quite grumpy and impatient as they aged. ;) Some people are the opposite and have much more patience and tolerance and are just all around better as older parents. Why should anyone care what someone chooses? People do what is best for them sometimes. Sometimes people are unable to do so. Sometimes people do not find their significant other until they are older. What would they say to those who never found anyone until they were in their late 20s/early 30s and obviously had to delay childbearing? I wonder if this poor quality film even addresses these issues? For some reason, I doubt.

Why are these people so obsessed about others having babies and how many they have or even when they chose to have them? It's not normal to worry so much about such unimportant things? Tell you what, so called filmmakers, why don't you lose this film and spend that money on children who are actually living instead of those who never came to exist in the womb in the first place? Just a thought.

[Paisy]

I often joke that if I had my life to do over again I would get knocked up at 16 and then not have to be childless at almost 38. I'm probably a prime example of what they're trying to warn their world against. I was 30 when I got married, 35 when we started trying for kids and now up to my eyeballs in fertility treatments. But I can't say if I really did have to do it all over again that I would do anything a whole lot different. My husband and I dated for five years and had a two year engagement after that and we needed that time to figure each other out. I taught for eight years and loved it, my husband makes a whole lot more money than did when we got married, and we're both emotionally in a better place to be parents than we were in our early thirties.

I'm not sure that gives the impression they mean it to give. "If you delay having children, you'll be able to have nice holidays, you'll be popular and respected at work, and you'll have leisure time to spend with your wife." Where do I sign up?

Haha, yes I got the exact same impression.

As far as the fertility issue, it's horseshit unless you are talking about sheer numbers. Most women want a pair, not a litter. They also leave out the convenient fact that all the infertility treatments have led to an increase in multiple births in older couples.

This.

[Dev83]

Looks like there's a movie in the works on "fertility stewardship" that examines (in a neutral and scholarly way, I'm sure) the phenomenon of couples putting off childbearing to accomplish worldly goals first.

Watch the trailer here: http://www.blessingsmissed.com/

As someone that is suffering from infertility, this pisses me off beyond belief. How dare I try to actually have the means to provide for my future children before I started popping them out.

[liltwinstar]

I don't get it either.

I'm 31 and recently married, and we're sort of figuring that we need to decide when we want to have children. I'm aware that, given my age, it make take more time and/or be more difficult to conceive depending on how long we wait (we're not ready now).

Even if my 35 year old self finds out that conceiving is going to be difficult or impossible for me, does that mean that my 20 year old self should have popped out a bunch of babies? No. And there's no guarantee that I would have been able to have babies at 20 if I can't have them at 35. I wasn't ready for them in any way at all.

Plus, it seems that infertility is painful enough for women without blaming them for not having babies "sooner" and scaring other women into having babies that they don't necessarily want or can care for just becuase another woman is having trouble conceiving.

[Wolfie]

And as others have said- how do we know that somebody who has fertility problems in their 30's wouldn't have had the same issues at 18. We don't.

[atheistjd]

And as others have said- how do we know that somebody who has fertility problems in their 30's wouldn't have had the same issues at 18. We don't.

This. Plus, with some careful preparation (and a lot of luck!) you might have more money, experience and resources to handle them/get fertility treatments/see the right docs in your thirties or (GASP) forties if you spend your younger years getting edumacated and building a career. You might not, because such is life. But still.

[darkplumaged]

And as others have said- how do we know that somebody who has fertility problems in their 30's wouldn't have had the same issues at 18. We don't.

I have no idea if my fertility is normal or not, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't when I was 18; I didn't even have regular cycles until I was in my 20s. I might be more fertile now at 34 than I was at 20. What do you think of that, fundies?

[2xx1xy1JD]

Wow, I absolutely HATE that video! Aside from all the points everyone else has made - NEVER EVER EVER is it appropriate to ask someone else about their childbearing status. This includes all versions of:

- when are you planning on having children?

- what are you waiting for?

- when are you going to have another?

- why don't you have kids already?

- why did you wait so long between kids?

- why didn't you have more kids?

I've been asked questions like this, and heard others ask questions like this, and had it feel like a knife in the heart because I was dealing with pregnancy loss. Idiotic comments were made when my oldest was 2 and people wanted to know when the next kid was coming. They didn't realize that it had taken many months for me to get pregnant, only to deal with 2 miscarriages back to back.

You have no idea if the person you are asking is struggling with infertility or pregnancy loss, or G-d-forbid loss of a child. It's an emotional minefield. You would think that the makers of a video that supposedly focuses on the risk of these things would understand that.

The guilt trip sucks too. Yes, age is a factor in fertility - but it is one factor out of many. Crap like this is part of the reason that I couldn't understand why I lost my first pregnancy at age 26 and had tons of irrational guilt fueling depression - because the message out there was that if there's a problem, it's YOUR fault.

Waiting until your mid-late 20s doesn't have a severe impact on fertility. Yes, there is a significant difference between fertility at 30 and at 40, but at 30 I was told by my specialist that he could pretty much guarantee that I'd be able to have another child (and I ended up with 2 more).

The line about children being the only blessing that we delay was also pure BS. Guess what? Rain is also a blessing, but we don't pray for it when we don't want it. I feel the same way about children. Yes, they are blessings from above - so they deserve to be treated as such, which would include having parents who can provide for their physical and emotional needs. Dh and I spent our early 20s in school and slaving away in positions that paid very little but were necessary to become the professionals that we are today. I have no idea how we would have balanced dh's 80+ hours/week with the demands of a baby who wouldn't sleep. By finishing our training, we do have the time and resources now to devote to the kids.

[darkplumaged]

The other idiotic thing about all this, which some people have pointed out, is that many people don't meet their spouse/life partner--I mean, godly headship or helpmeet--until they're older. I would have liked to have met the "perfect" guy in college, but that's not how it worked out. Even fundies don't always pair off by 22! (See, again, Sarah Maxwell.)

[atheistjd]

Wow, I absolutely HATE that video! Aside from all the points everyone else has made - NEVER EVER EVER is it appropriate to ask someone else about their childbearing status. This includes all versions of:

- when are you planning on having children?

- what are you waiting for?

- when are you going to have another?

- why don't you have kids already?

- why did you wait so long between kids?

- why didn't you have more kids?

I've been asked questions like this, and heard others ask questions like this, and had it feel like a knife in the heart because I was dealing with pregnancy loss. Idiotic comments were made when my oldest was 2 and people wanted to know when the next kid was coming. They didn't realize that it had taken many months for me to get pregnant, only to deal with 2 miscarriages back to back.

You have no idea if the person you are asking is struggling with infertility or pregnancy loss, or G-d-forbid loss of a child. It's an emotional minefield. You would think that the makers of a video that supposedly focuses on the risk of these things would understand that.

The guilt trip sucks too. Yes, age is a factor in fertility - but it is one factor out of many. Crap like this is part of the reason that I couldn't understand why I lost my first pregnancy at age 26 and had tons of irrational guilt fueling depression - because the message out there was that if there's a problem, it's YOUR fault.

Waiting until your mid-late 20s doesn't have a severe impact on fertility. Yes, there is a significant difference between fertility at 30 and at 40, but at 30 I was told by my specialist that he could pretty much guarantee that I'd be able to have another child (and I ended up with 2 more).

The line about children being the only blessing that we delay was also pure BS. Guess what? Rain is also a blessing, but we don't pray for it when we don't want it. I feel the same way about children. Yes, they are blessings from above - so they deserve to be treated as such, which would include having parents who can provide for their physical and emotional needs. Dh and I spent our early 20s in school and slaving away in positions that paid very little but were necessary to become the professionals that we are today. I have no idea how we would have balanced dh's 80+ hours/week with the demands of a baby who wouldn't sleep. By finishing our training, we do have the time and resources now to devote to the kids.

Wow, what a dumb line. We don't stuff our face all day every day, but food is certainly a blessing. We don't get married when we pop out of the womb - even fundies wait for some period of time (especially our favorite SAHDs) - although they say marriage is a blessing. Death, if you think you will go to heaven, is a blessing - yet (most) fundies would take medication or visit a doctor to stave it off. These people really are BAD at logic, huh?

[GenerationCedarchip]

I don't get it either.

I'm 31 and recently married, and we're sort of figuring that we need to decide when we want to have children. I'm aware that, given my age, it make take more time and/or be more difficult to conceive depending on how long we wait (we're not ready now).

Even if my 35 year old self finds out that conceiving is going to be difficult or impossible for me, does that mean that my 20 year old self should have popped out a bunch of babies? No. And there's no guarantee that I would have been able to have babies at 20 if I can't have them at 35. I wasn't ready for them in any way at all.

Plus, it seems that infertility is painful enough for women without blaming them for not having babies "sooner" and scaring other women into having babies that they don't necessarily want or can care for just becuase another woman is having trouble conceiving.

This. I have a friend who married at 23 and started in on having babies right away because she'd grown up hearing umpteen lectures about how she would have so much trouble if she waited. So, she ended up becoming a parent way before she was ready for it and now that the kids are in school, she's having a hellish time finding a job because she went straight from school to SAHM-hood and has no work history at 34.

[alphaeta08]

Well, I'd love to have children earlier than my late twenties. Hell, I'd have a child tomorrow if I were married and financially stable. But, my hypothetical kids would be raised in an atheist home, so would they count as blessings, or would it be better for me to use my obviously unlimited income on shoes and international vacations? Seriously, I'd like an answer from these people: would my children be blessings? :roll:

ETA: that video was hilarious. Why was she shopping for Super Expensive Clothes in her closet?

[browngrl]

You beat me to it. A girl can be fertile at 11. If she gets married at 20 that's at least 10 blessings that will never be.

Won't SOMEONE think of the holocaust of middle school fetuses? :cry:

And of course every sperm is sacred!

[emmiedahl]

They should hire a kid from a middle school video production course to clean that up a little; my teenager could do better than that.

The thing about children is that they do fuck up your life a bit. Fertility will decline as you age, but so will your opportunities. Couples do have to choose: children now, goals later or goals now, children later. It's a difficult choice with no correct answers. Some people have children early and still accomplish their goals, while many others work on career/education first and then have successful childbearing later. Some decide never to have kids, that is fine too.

There's no absolute right or wrong answer. Christians have to be all up in other people's business and I don't get why they care so much.

There are many things that are a blessing and yet we limit ourselves. Gluttony can be broadly defined as taking an unhealthy amount of a good thing. It is a deadly sin.

[kayray]

One advantage I see to having children younger is that you are usually still naive to all the work they can be ;)

I am 32, and my husband is 37. We did not meet until I was 29, or marry until I was 30. Quite frankly, while I probably am more ready to have kids now than I was a few years ago, I still am not there, and we are honestly enjoying it just being us for a while longer. We both recognize that children are a lot of work, and have plenty of time to see how they have greatly affected the dynamics of others we know. Many negative, but some very positive examples too - mostly amongst our older peers. We both firmly believe in the value of a strong relationship foundation before bringing children into it. We do have a very strong, egalitarian, close and emotionally honest and intimate relationship, but we still are enjoying our time alone together. We are both very healthy and active people, and while it is possible there may be some issues with my fertility due to some past health issues, that to me is not a reason to pop out babies before we are ready. In addition, I am the main breadwinner and establishing my second career, and also want to be in a position where we can afford for my husband to take time off work to care for young children, as well as for daycare/nanny care later on.

One of the arguments that bothers me most about having kids younger is the ones along the lines of "you will have more time to enjoy them or have them in your old age/be healthier and more active/live to see grandchildren/have more time when they are grown up to be together alone". That is utopian thinking. Not all your children will be close to you, I know some very unhealthy 20-somethings and very healthy 60-somethings, there is no guarantee your kids will have kids, and if kids are so awesome why is everyone in a rush to get them grown and out of the house - I can enjoy my time NOW, and enjoy my time with my husband NOW. My mum had me at 21, got a divorce a few years later, and she almost died at 47 anyway, and still has no grandchildren from her three children at 54! We are spread all over the country, and my brother who is gay will be adopting his children with his partner when it comes time. My mother has often told me that having kids at the age she did was harder than she ever imagined it would be (and not what she expected!).

If it turns out we can't have kids naturally, so be it. I cannot imagine I will regret waiting, as that is just not the way I work personally (I make choices that are right for me, and thus cannot regret them!), we feel quite "complete" in our lives as is, and there are other options available if we still want children, such as adoption.

Oh, and I thank my younger self daily for not having children with some of the men I was in a relationship with in my teens/twenties. I see some of these young pregnant woman/young mothers whose partners I know personally and I just cringe at the idea they are now tied to them forever due to those kids. They don't even know yet how much better they could have in a partner/relationship, and I find it rather saddening they are limiting themselves to finding out. There is a LOT to be said for taking some time to mature (even if you think you are mature in your early 20's, you are not!) and ensuring your more mature and self-aware self is in charge of selecting the life partner you will have children with.

[FemaleScientist]

The acting is atrocious. And there are so many other blessings out there than children. Sure, a child can be a blessing for quite a few people out there, but so is an education, a job, financial stability, vacations, going out with friends, the rain, the sunshine... I could go on and on.

Personally, I want to make sure that if I have a kid, I can actually take care of it. I have a bit of debt I need paid off. Plus, there are so many kids in foster homes who could really use a permanent loving family. I'd rather adopt a couple kids before I think about having my own children. This may sound terrible, but in light of our population reaching 7 billion (and it's an exponential curve), I'm all about conservation.

[AnnieC 305]

And what about those of us who were diagnosed with infertility at 13? Should I have started trying right after the worst of puberty finished, when I was ten?

Oh. all the eggs I let die in grade school..... :(

I think this whole emphasis is to make them feel better about this.

http://xkcd.com/946/