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Judaism and Jesus - just some thoughts


Soldier of the One

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The Bible, especially the early parts of it (The Torah/Pentateuch) don't really speak about the afterlife. There is stuff alluded to 'sleeping with one's forefathers' in Genesis and stuff about 'going down to She'ol/sleeping in the dust' in the later books of the Bible. In the later Prophetic literature, a concept (probably under influence of Zoroastrianism) of physical resurrection emerges.

The Bible is very tit-for-tat, what we call 'middah k'neged middah'. You behave properly? God will reward you in this earthly plain. Of course, this opens a huge theological can of worms in terms of theodicy ('justifying God' - i.e. 'why do bad things happen to good people') and the Bible itself is 'torn' over the issue. Hence the Book of Job was included in the canon! (Also, there's a lot of existential angst in the Psalms).

It was Pharisaic and later, Rabbinic Judaism that came up with the notion of 'Olam haBah', the afterlife. It was a big source of contention between the Tzaddokim (Sadducees) and the Perushim (Pharisees). The Sadducees, who guarded the priestly class and Temple cult, held onto the classical Biblical view represented above. The Pharisees dared to 'innovate' by suggesting reward in the afterlife as an answer to the inevitable challenge of theodicy.

From that, our current, rabbinic conceptions of the afterlife emerged. Although, it is important to note that the afterlife doesn't loom large in Jewish theology. We still are very much of a 'here and now' bunch. We are called to sanctify the mundane and live well in THIS world. Our Torah is given in and for this world. 'Lo bashamayim hi' - she [Torah] is not in Heaven... but very close to you. (Deuteronomy). And: 'I set before you blessing and curse, life and death - choose life, so that you and your children may live'. (Deuteronomy).

Hence, there are varying views in Judaism on the afterlife but none of them include eternal damnation. There are gilgulim (reincarnation), Gan Eden (returning to the Garden of Eden), olam habah (the coming world), techiyat hametim (bodily resurrection) and who knows what else. Generally, the idea is that a human neshamah (soul) will be held accountable to God. There may be an exacting of punishment in a temporary hell but for no more than 12 months. And you get Shabbat off! :D

This, by the way, is also the origin of the custom to recite Kaddish for the dead - to help their souls escape their (temporal) judgment. After 12 months, for the worst of sinners, (and every Sabbath you get to leave), you are redeemed and brought into 'Heaven'.

Mind you, this is a very conservative and Kabbalistic view and probably the most extreme view you can find in the Jewish tradition.

Of course, all of this presents a quandary for Jewish theologians when it comes to the question of Adolf Hitler (yemach shemo, may his name be erased). What happens to the soul of someone as utterly evil as Hitler? Does he 'only' suffer judgment and torment for 12 months maximum? There are suggestions that for the truly evil, their souls are 'snuffed out' and simply cease to exist.

However, I am not an expert on Jewish conceptions of the afterlife so a bit out of my depth here. If any other Jew wants to chip in, go for it! :)

The more time I spend on FJ with the smart Jew crowd, the more impressed I am with the theology, especially the here and now aspect of it... One of the main reasons I gave up on the last vestiges of my religiosity was the realization that now matters so much more than then. As always, thanks for sharing!

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I find it interesting that the Jewish view of Messiah and the Christian view of the Anti-Christ I was raised with are very similar...

That thought actually occurred to me as well. I remain thoroughly creeped out by how AGAINST world peace most Christians are...

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Thanks, Jewess!

That's helpful. Do you think this also gives us more insight into what 'karet'/excision means?

Definitely. Karet is a debatable term, theres no universal explanation.

The soul just ceasing to exist is one possible explanation of karet.

Not having any kids is another possible explanation (because no continuance of yourself after you die).

Dying young is another explanation...

And I seem to remember that there was a 4th explanation, but I don't remember what that was.

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Really Alecto? Woah...

How so? I know nothing about the Anti-Christ. Thank God for that :P

Pretty much that the Anti-Christ will bring about world peace.

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Pretty much that the Anti-Christ will bring about world peace.

And that he is a messenger of Satan, to get you to believe that the Antichrist is the salvation, and to lead you away from believing in Jesus...

At least according to wikipedia. ;)

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This thread has been incredibly educational... I didn't learn this much theology in five years of religious school. Thank you, Jewish FJers who are infinitely more knowledgeable than I.

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Wow... that's some bizarre theology. But then again, I am not sold on the 'God vs. Satan' dichotomy either.

The whole notion of the Anti-Christ sounds Gnostic to me... like the Demiurge.

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This thread has been incredibly educational... I didn't learn this much theology in five years of religious school. Thank you, Jewish FJers who are infinitely more knowledgeable than I.

You're welcome, darkplumaged :) Thanks!

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Thank you, for explaining the issue so eloquently. I think you put into words exactly the way a lot of Jews feel about Christianity.

I think the Heaven/Hell issue and original sin were invented post-Christ. The Christian Bible certainly supports this, when you look at when and where certain ideas were introduced (ie, pre or post Jesus). His followers clearly believed he was the Messiah; they were willing to die for this belief even. When generations passed without the peace and all that, they had to either acknowledge they were wrong, or reinvent the Messiah. The early Christian church had already distanced themselves from Judaism, so it was easy to make a leap that was not consistent with Jewish thought.

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Thank you, for explaining the issue so eloquently. I think you put into words exactly the way a lot of Jews feel about Christianity.

I think the Heaven/Hell issue and original sin were invented post-Christ. The Christian Bible certainly supports this, when you look at when and where certain ideas were introduced (ie, pre or post Jesus). His followers clearly believed he was the Messiah; they were willing to die for this belief even. When generations passed without the peace and all that, they had to either acknowledge they were wrong, or reinvent the Messiah. The early Christian church had already distanced themselves from Judaism, so it was easy to make a leap that was not consistent with Jewish thought.

Thank you emmiedahl. I just wanted to give it a shot to summarize the issues succinctly, also to help our Christian FJians (and lurkers) understand. Me not accepting Christ is not a 'rejection' of God or faith or anyone else. It is a 'rejection' done on solid foundations and I think it is important to explain and illustrate what those foundations are.

I don't know enough about the Early Christian Church to be able to comment on that. I do know that until the Nicene Creed, the Early Christian concept of Messiah was not yet set in stone. There were quite a few different interpretations, including Arianism, which saw Christ as a human Messiah rather than as divine. Eventually, Trinitarianism won out but I actually seem to remember that it was a minority position. I am not writing this to delegitimize what contemporary Christians believe, God forbid, but just to provide some context about how Christology developed.

Just my two cents :)

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First--great thread!

Second, and this is only my opinion, based on what I have read over the years, but I think the followers of Jesus were a more diverse bunch than indicated in the New Testament (keeping in mind that the documents in question were written years, if not decades after the events depicted). I believe there were some people who followed Jesus as a moral teacher, but did not see him as the Messiah, and I suspect most of those followers were Jews of various stripes.

However, I also believe that the guy known as Saul/Paul latched on to Jesus for some reason (maybe even that "road to Damascus" experience) and began pushing the envelope, as it were, on who Jesus "really was." A careful reading of the early documents indicates some very serious disagreements between Paul and the Jerusalem church (e.g., the Jerusalem council in Acts, Paul's conflict with Peter in Galatians, and the statement in the letter of James that indicates James thought Paul was writing things that were hard to understand). When the Jewish War occurred, and Jerusalem was basically destroyed, that also unmoored the nascent Christian movement from its roots--and a lot of people who would have otherwise objected to the reformulation of Jesus as the Messiah were not in a position to object.

What I find interesting is what may be happening in the Chabad movement, with some followers apparently thinking their late rebbe is still alive and is the Messiah. I surely do hope there is some anthropologist or sociologist on scene taking careful notes, because we may be seeing a Jewish offshoot in the making and that could give us some insight into how early Christianity started and grew.

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First--great thread!

However, I also believe that the guy known as Saul/Paul latched on to Jesus for some reason (maybe even that "road to Damascus" experience) and began pushing the envelope, as it were, on who Jesus "really was." A careful reading of the early documents indicates some very serious disagreements between Paul and the Jerusalem church (e.g., the Jerusalem council in Acts, Paul's conflict with Peter in Galatians, and the statement in the letter of James that indicates James thought Paul was writing things that were hard to understand)..

According to the Talmud, Saul/Paul was actually a messenger of the Jewish Courts (the Sanhedrin) who was sent to make changes in Christianity so that it would appear to be different enough from Judaism so that more Jews wouldn't be swayed into believing that believing in Jesus was compatible with Judaism... which could be why he was "pushing the envelope as to who Jesus was", and that Saul/Paul actually wasn't a believer in Jesus whatsoever, but someone on the Pharisee side...

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'I set before you blessing and curse, life and death - choose life, so that you and your children may live'. (Deuteronomy)

I've seen Christians interpret that passage as some sort of anti-abortion message. My very Catholic SIL has a pro-life sweatshirt with that verse on it. But I thought that misses the original point of the verse entirely, am I right? It's about the covenant between God and his people.

In regards to the Messiah, I feel like there are mixed messages coming from the Christians. They make a big deal of how Jesus fulfilled all the prophecies, but then they mock the Jews for being totally wrong about what the Messiah would be like. They want Jesus to be totally expected and totally unexpected at the same time.

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Nice OP!

Mirele: I agree about the messianic wing of Chabad. I personally see it as the closest that we can get to a laboratory experiment showing what happens when a group of Jews fully invested in the idea that there leader is Messiah is suddenly faced with his death. Back in 1994, I remember hearing rumblings just after the Rebbe's (late leader of the Chabad Lubavitch movement) death than "maybe he would somehow come back and finish his work". My immediate thought was "dude, that sounds like the Second Coming argument, and that's been one of the key arguments that we've had with Christianity for almost 2,000 years".

In terms of Jewish hostility to Messianic Judaism, there's another aspect to it as well: concerns about deliberate misrepresentation.

I can't speak for others here, but I personally have no problem at all with someone who clearly identifies as Christian wanting to know more about the Jewish roots of Christianity.

I do, however, have an issue with false advertisement via full-page ads in retirement village newspapers in Florida aimed squarely at Jewish seniors, promoting synagogue services and assistance with transportation to get there, using tons of Hebrew terminology. I remember seeing an ad like this and showing it to my parents and grandfather, who read it over and had no idea that it was anything other than a regular Jewish group. Basically, they were using Hebrew words as a code for Christian terms. IIRC, they were calling themselves, in fine print, a congregation of Jews who believed that Yeshua was moshiach, and in the Brit Hadasha. The average Jew who has not been to a Jews for Judaism seminar or otherwise specifically warned would have no idea that what they are saying means in English "We believe in Jesus as messiah and in the New Testament." The language and rituals and other window dressing look Jewish, but if you look at the theology, it's clearly Christian. If you believe that Jesus was the Messiah and Son of G-d who died for humanity's sins and rose from the grave, and that salvation occurs only through faith in Jesus - that's 100% Christian. Be honest about it.

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Nice OP!

Thanks! :)

I do, however, have an issue with false advertisement via full-page ads in retirement village newspapers in Florida aimed squarely at Jewish seniors, promoting synagogue services and assistance with transportation to get there, using tons of Hebrew terminology. I remember seeing an ad like this and showing it to my parents and grandfather, who read it over and had no idea that it was anything other than a regular Jewish group. Basically, they were using Hebrew words as a code for Christian terms. IIRC, they were calling themselves, in fine print, a congregation of Jews who believed that Yeshua was moshiach, and in the Brit Hadasha. The average Jew who has not been to a Jews for Judaism seminar or otherwise specifically warned would have no idea that what they are saying means in English "We believe in Jesus as messiah and in the New Testament." The language and rituals and other window dressing look Jewish, but if you look at the theology, it's clearly Christian. If you believe that Jesus was the Messiah and Son of G-d who died for humanity's sins and rose from the grave, and that salvation occurs only through faith in Jesus - that's 100% Christian. Be honest about it.

This is... :shock:

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