Judaism and Jesus - just some thoughts

[Soldier of the One]

I am just your regular Jew sans Jesus and kind of intrigued/saddened/annoyed/mystified by the contentious relationship between Jews, Messianic 'Jews' and Jesus.

 

First off: for me, theologically and culturally, believing in Jesus and claiming a Jewish identity or religious affiliation is fundamentally incompatible. The Jewish litmus test for Mashiach (messiah) is very simple and foolproof: if the messiah didn't fix the world, bring universal peace and brotherhood and establish faith in One God, he isn't it.

 

Without wanting to offend my Christian brethren, Jesus did not fulfill these criteria according to Jewish definitions of messiah. Christian theology of course would present the counter-claim that Jesus provides redemption from Original Sin and offers personal salvation through his sacrifice on the cross. Within a christological worldview, I think this is internally consistent. Original Sin = Christ to absolve us from Original Sin. But it is not a Jewish view.

 

The Jewish view is that we keep Torah (according to your denominational interpretation of what that means :)) and bring the world closer to the Messianic Age (and Mashiach, depending on your personal theology) through good deeds and 'tikkun olam' - repair of the world. In a sense, Torah is our roadmap to steer our broken world towards Redemption. And also in that sense, 'combining' Torah with Jesus makes no sense. It's an either/or option. Either, you embrace Torah's vision of the Eschaton or Christ's vision of salvation but they are mutually exclusive.

 

To put it simply: (and this is I what respectfully tell missionaries) "Jesus is the solution to a problem I don't have". We Jews do not embrace the concept of Original Sin and hence we do not 'need' Jesus to fix that for us.

Of course, fundamentalists would disagree with that perception but as we say in Hebrew, 'ain mah la'asot' - there's nothing we can do about that

 

I'm stating the obvious here, of course, but Messianic 'Judaism' fails both faith communities. It is offensive to Christianity because it somehow distrusts the central tenets of Christianity - namely that Christ is your redeemer. And it is offensive to Judaism for all the reasons stated above and more. It negates Torah and Torah's vision of Redemption. Not to mention the historical sensitivities and issues of cultural appropriation.

 

Now, I certainly can understand that Christians want to learn more about the faith of their savior. Placing the historical Jesus in a 'Jewish' context is a very healthy thing to do. God knows that Jesus' Jewish origins were whitewashed in antisemitic thought. I also understand that Christians might try to graft some Jewish practices into their own Christian practices. But that doesn't make it Judaism: neither culturally, historically or theologically.

 

What I do wonder, however, is whether Messianic 'Judaism' represents an (awkward) phase of transitioning between Christianity and Judaism. Some Messianic 'Jews' may end up changing their mind about how they feel about Christ and pursuing a 'normative' Jewish conversion - sans Jesus. I would argue, however, that finding acceptance in a Jewish community after having had a 'Messianic' past is harder, though because of fears of proselytizing Jews to bring them to Christ.

 

So... if there are Messianic 'Jews' reading this (and I am hardly the authority on Judaism, but still :)), please consider this. If you want to embrace Judaism for its own sake, go for it. We have a tradition of welcoming the stranger and convert. But if you want to hold onto your faith in Christ, please pursue other avenues. You are doing Christianity, Judaism and yourself a disservice.

 

Thanks for listening

[pomology]

Yasher koach!

[Soldier of the One]

Thank you :)

I hope this clarifies things for folks, especially for Messianic lurkers :)

[atheistjd]

Not a Jew or a Christian, so I've got no horse in this race, but I just wanted to say that this was the best, most concise, and easy-to-understand explanation of this problem (or lack thereof ;) ) that I've ever seen! Thanks!!

[Soldier of the One]

Thanks! Glad to help an atheist brother or sister out! :)

[Soldier of the One]

I guess I should have added to the original post that even in the Jewish concept of Messiah, there is no supernaturalism involved. The Jewish Messiah is *always* a human being, never divinity incarnate. A remarkable human being of course, but just that.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Not a Jew or a Christian, so I've got no horse in this race, but I just wanted to say that this was the best, most concise, and easy-to-understand explanation of this problem (or lack thereof ;) ) that I've ever seen! Thanks!!

I'll second that thought, from the same perspective.

[onlyorganic]

That was extremely insightful and well-written. I would love to see TT's response to that. I'd love if you sent it to Azariah via an email and then shared the response with all of us. While introvert Lina would simply dismiss your description as an attack on her, TT gets an intellectual hard-on over defending the more "oil and water" beliefs they hold.

[atheistjd]

Thanks! Glad to help an atheist brother or sister out! :)

Well thank you :D

I am actually curious as to the thoughts of any of our more theologically-minded Christians here regarding WHY the Christian "messiah" is so different from the Jewish messiah. Is it because the cult of Jesus (I mean by that the early years of the religion) just wanted to believe Jesus was the messiah (and hadn't seen yet that the world wasn't going to be fixed)? Is it that the modern-day Jewish beliefs about the messiah are less literature-based and more Rabbinically dictated (sorry if that sounds disrespectful - I'm not sure how to better express that)?

I guess I just don't see how two religions can have the same primary text (basically - I realize that isn't 100% accurate though) and come up with two different ideas about the messiah/afterlife/Original Sin/etc.

I know I am WAY oversimplifying these things - in a past life (before atheism & grad school) I was pretty theologically-minded but just never got a good answer to this one...

[atheistjd]

That was extremely insightful and well-written. I would love to see TT's response to that. I'd love if you sent it to Azariah via an email and then shared the response with all of us. While introvert Lina would simply dismiss your description as an attack on her, TT gets an intellectual hard-on over defending the more "oil and water" beliefs they hold.

This :geek:

[Jewess]

I guess I should have added to the original post that even in the Jewish concept of Messiah, there is no supernaturalism involved. The Jewish Messiah is *always* a human being, never divinity incarnate. A remarkable human being of course, but just that.

And that the Messiah has to be the son of the son of the son of the son of king david, going way back...

And if Jesus's father was God... then how can he be directly descendant from King David on his father's side?

[Soldier of the One]

That was extremely insightful and well-written. I would love to see TT's response to that. I'd love if you sent it to Azariah via an email and then shared the response with all of us. While introvert Lina would simply dismiss your description as an attack on her, TT gets an intellectual hard-on over defending the more "oil and water" beliefs they hold.

I am sure Azariah will find this post in due time. And I would invite him to engage with the issues in it :)

[Jewess]

Well thank you :D

I am actually curious as to the thoughts of any of our more theologically-minded Christians here regarding WHY the Christian "messiah" is so different from the Jewish messiah. Is it because the cult of Jesus (I mean by that the early years of the religion) just wanted to believe Jesus was the messiah (and hadn't seen yet that the world wasn't going to be fixed)? Is it that the modern-day Jewish beliefs about the messiah are less literature-based and more Rabbinically dictated (sorry if that sounds disrespectful - I'm not sure how to better express that)?

If anything, its Christianity that has to do more explaining away the literature in the bible about the messiah, because the Old Testament has very specific explanations in the prophets, namely Isiah and Ezekiel and Jeremiah among others about the times of the messiah, and they talk about peace in the world, "They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore", both in Isiah and Micah. Among many others.

To explain away this lack of peace on earth during the times of the messiah you have to do all sorts of sommersaults and backbends to try to rationalize it and talk about how its "within your heart" and not literally... So no, Jewish beliefs about the messiah are very textual based, at least old testament text, but its the Christian beliefs about the messiah that try to understand the messiah prophecies non literally.

[pomology]

Well thank you :D

I am actually curious as to the thoughts of any of our more theologically-minded Christians here regarding WHY the Christian "messiah" is so different from the Jewish messiah. Is it because the cult of Jesus (I mean by that the early years of the religion) just wanted to believe Jesus was the messiah (and hadn't seen yet that the world wasn't going to be fixed)? Is it that the modern-day Jewish beliefs about the messiah are less literature-based and more Rabbinically dictated (sorry if that sounds disrespectful - I'm not sure how to better express that)?

I guess I just don't see how two religions can have the same primary text (basically - I realize that isn't 100% accurate though) and come up with two different ideas about the messiah/afterlife/Original Sin/etc.

I know I am WAY oversimplifying these things - in a past life (before atheism & grad school) I was pretty theologically-minded but just never got a good answer to this one...

Yeah, I've never understood this either. Then again, I know precious little about Christianity. And about the messianic aspect of Judaism for that matter, other than that the messiah is supposed to bring world peace and that if you're planting a tree when the messiah comes you're supposed to finish planting the tree before you greet the messiah ;)

[Soldier of the One]

Well thank you :D

I am actually curious as to the thoughts of any of our more theologically-minded Christians here regarding WHY the Christian "messiah" is so different from the Jewish messiah. Is it because the cult of Jesus (I mean by that the early years of the religion) just wanted to believe Jesus was the messiah (and hadn't seen yet that the world wasn't going to be fixed)? Is it that the modern-day Jewish beliefs about the messiah are less literature-based and more Rabbinically dictated (sorry if that sounds disrespectful - I'm not sure how to better express that)?

I guess I just don't see how two religions can have the same primary text (basically - I realize that isn't 100% accurate though) and come up with two different ideas about the messiah/afterlife/Original Sin/etc.

I know I am WAY oversimplifying these things - in a past life (before atheism & grad school) I was pretty theologically-minded but just never got a good answer to this one...

This. I am a Jew, not a Christian, so I feel a certain amount of trepidation and humility about representing the Christian POV.

I'd say, however, that even though we have the same proof-text, we read it very differently because of different eschatological and theological understandings. For us Jews, getting expelled from Gan Eden (Garden of Eden) wasn't due to Original Sin. It wasn't even a bad thing. It was the start of human history and the start of a long quest to return to Edenic (Messianic) times. But without History, we wouldn't have Torah. And without Free Will, we wouldn't have a genuine, covenantal relationship with our Creator.

God never willed us to be automatons or robots. He gave us Free Will.

For the Christian (huge generalization, I know!!) however, the exile from Eden represents something other. It represents Satan's triumph over man and a demonstration of Man's 'sin nature'. Hence, Christ is seen as the atonement for that sin nature. It is Christ who represents an 'Edenic return' through being 'saved' on account of his sacrifice.

To us, our messiah doesn't have those theological undertones. He is a remarkable political leader ('from the House of David') who will help us usher in a time of peace and brotherhood for all mankind in this world, in this earthly plain. It is about collective redemption in the physical world, not about individual salvation in the spiritual world.

I guess that would be the best way I would explain it :) Hope that helps!

[pomology]

And that the Messiah has to be the son of the son of the son of the son of king david, going way back...

And if Jesus's father was God... then how can he be directly descendant from King David on his father's side?

Actually, this bring up the point, if Lina and Taliban Tony don't believe Jesus is God, then who do they think his dad is?

[atheistjd]

If anything, its Christianity that has to do more explaining away the literature in the bible about the messiah, because the Old Testament has very specific explanations in the prophets, namely Isiah and Ezekiel and Jeremiah among others about the times of the messiah, and they talk about peace in the world, "They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore", both in Isiah and Micah. Among many others.

To explain away this lack of peace on earth during the times of the messiah you have to do all sorts of sommersaults and backbends to try to rationalize it and talk about how its "within your heart" and not literally... So no, Jewish beliefs about the messiah are very textual based, at least old testament text, but its the Christian beliefs about the messiah that try to understand the messiah prophecies non literally.

That makes sense... but what about other basic theological beliefs like original sin and hell? In your opinion, are those just NT creations to explain why Jesus is/was the messiah or "fits the bill"?

[atheistjd]

This. I am a Jew, not a Christian, so I feel a certain amount of trepidation and humility about representing the Christian POV.

I'd say, however, that even though we have the same proof-text, we read it very differently because of different eschatological and theological understandings. For us Jews, getting expelled from Gan Eden (Garden of Eden) wasn't due to Original Sin. It wasn't even a bad thing. It was the start of human history and the start of a long quest to return to Edenic (Messianic) times. But without History, we wouldn't have Torah. And without Free Will, we wouldn't have a genuine, covenantal relationship with our Creator.

God never willed us to be automatons or robots. He gave us Free Will.

For the Christian (huge generalization, I know!!) however, the exile from Eden represents something other. It represents Satan's triumph over man and a demonstration of Man's 'sin nature'. Hence, Christ is seen as the atonement for that sin nature. It is Christ who represents an 'Edenic return' through being 'saved' on account of his sacrifice.

To us, our messiah doesn't have those theological undertones. He is a remarkable political leader ('from the House of David') who will help us usher in a time of peace and brotherhood for all mankind in this world, in this earthly plain. It is about collective redemption in the physical world, not about individual salvation in the spiritual world.

I guess that would be the best way I would explain it :) Hope that helps!

Very helpful... thanks :D

[Soldier of the One]

If anything, its Christianity that has to do more explaining away the literature in the bible about the messiah, because the Old Testament has very specific explanations in the prophets, namely Isiah and Ezekiel and Jeremiah among others about the times of the messiah, and they talk about peace in the world, "They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore", both in Isiah and Micah. Among many others.

To explain away this lack of peace on earth during the times of the messiah you have to do all sorts of sommersaults and backbends to try to rationalize it and talk about how its "within your heart" and not literally... So no, Jewish beliefs about the messiah are very textual based, at least old testament text, but its the Christian beliefs about the messiah that try to understand the messiah prophecies non literally.

Jewess, exactly.

Basically, it comes down to two simple principles:

1) We Jews do not accept original sin. Every morning we recite, 'elohai neshama shanatata bi, tehorah hi' - 'my God, the soul you have given me, she is pure'. Hence, to come back to my earlier quip: 'Jesus is the solution to a problem I don't have'.

2) Just look around the world we live in! Obviously, we do not live in a 'redeemed' world! There is no world peace, no universal brotherhood and - more controversially, I guess - no universal recognition of the 'One True God'. The proof, as they say, is in the pudding. Mashiach has not yet come.

Whatever our religious or political philosophy, most decent people in the world want world peace and brotherhood/sisterhood of humankind. May it be so speedily and in our days :)

As for scriptural debates. I simply refuse to engage on that level because it's pointless. People can always interpret and re-interpret Bible verses to say what they want them to say. Lord knows I do! :D (but from within the Jewish tradition, I hope :))

It's essentially a futile discussion because the New Testament is essentially a 'christological midrash' (interpretation) of our Prophetic literature. You can argue to high heaven whether Isaiah's 'suffering servant' in chapter 53 refers to the Jewish people as a whole or to Jesus. The Christian tradition will read that text in one way to 'justify' their perspective and we read it in another way to justify ours :)

[Jewess]

That makes sense... but what about other basic theological beliefs like original sin and hell? In your opinion, are those just NT creations to explain why Jesus is/was the messiah or "fits the bill"?

Judaism doesn't even have the concept of "original sin", its never mentioned anywhere in Jewish literature or the OT. Is that phrase mentioned in the NT?

I think Soldier of the One actually gave a pretty good explanation, that Adam and Eve sinning was inevitable, that it actually was the last step in the creation of the world, for man to have free choice and get the Torah, etc...

Judaism doesn't mention the world "Hell", and actually has no concept of eternal damnation, only purgatory...

[Soldier of the One]

That makes sense... but what about other basic theological beliefs like original sin and hell? In your opinion, are those just NT creations to explain why Jesus is/was the messiah or "fits the bill"?

The Bible, especially the early parts of it (The Torah/Pentateuch) don't really speak about the afterlife. There is stuff alluded to 'sleeping with one's forefathers' in Genesis and stuff about 'going down to She'ol/sleeping in the dust' in the later books of the Bible. In the later Prophetic literature, a concept (probably under influence of Zoroastrianism) of physical resurrection emerges.

The Bible is very tit-for-tat, what we call 'middah k'neged middah'. You behave properly? God will reward you in this earthly plain. Of course, this opens a huge theological can of worms in terms of theodicy ('justifying God' - i.e. 'why do bad things happen to good people') and the Bible itself is 'torn' over the issue. Hence the Book of Job was included in the canon! (Also, there's a lot of existential angst in the Psalms).

It was Pharisaic and later, Rabbinic Judaism that came up with the notion of 'Olam haBah', the afterlife. It was a big source of contention between the Tzaddokim (Sadducees) and the Perushim (Pharisees). The Sadducees, who guarded the priestly class and Temple cult, held onto the classical Biblical view represented above. The Pharisees dared to 'innovate' by suggesting reward in the afterlife as an answer to the inevitable challenge of theodicy.

From that, our current, rabbinic conceptions of the afterlife emerged. Although, it is important to note that the afterlife doesn't loom large in Jewish theology. We still are very much of a 'here and now' bunch. We are called to sanctify the mundane and live well in THIS world. Our Torah is given in and for this world. 'Lo bashamayim hi' - she [Torah] is not in Heaven... but very close to you. (Deuteronomy). And: 'I set before you blessing and curse, life and death - choose life, so that you and your children may live'. (Deuteronomy).

Hence, there are varying views in Judaism on the afterlife but none of them include eternal damnation. There are gilgulim (reincarnation), Gan Eden (returning to the Garden of Eden), olam habah (the coming world), techiyat hametim (bodily resurrection) and who knows what else. Generally, the idea is that a human neshamah (soul) will be held accountable to God. There may be an exacting of punishment in a temporary hell but for no more than 12 months. And you get Shabbat off! :D

This, by the way, is also the origin of the custom to recite Kaddish for the dead - to help their souls escape their (temporal) judgment. After 12 months, for the worst of sinners, (and every Sabbath you get to leave), you are redeemed and brought into 'Heaven'.

Mind you, this is a very conservative and Kabbalistic view and probably the most extreme view you can find in the Jewish tradition.

Of course, all of this presents a quandary for Jewish theologians when it comes to the question of Adolf Hitler (yemach shemo, may his name be erased). What happens to the soul of someone as utterly evil as Hitler? Does he 'only' suffer judgment and torment for 12 months maximum? There are suggestions that for the truly evil, their souls are 'snuffed out' and simply cease to exist.

However, I am not an expert on Jewish conceptions of the afterlife so a bit out of my depth here. If any other Jew wants to chip in, go for it! :)

[Jewess]

Of course, all of this presents a quandary for Jewish theologians when it comes to the question of Adolf Hitler (yemach shemo, may his name be erased). What happens to the soul of someone as utterly evil as Hitler? Does he 'only' suffer judgment and torment for 12 months maximum? There are suggestions that for the truly evil, their souls are 'snuffed out' and simply cease to exist.

However, I am not an expert on Jewish conceptions of the afterlife so a bit out of my depth here. If any other Jew wants to chip in, go for it! :)

In Avot DRabi Natan, it talks about "There are certain people that have no portion in the world to come" and then there's a debate about who these people that are so evil that they have no hell, they have no heaven, their souls just cease to exist... So it could be any of the following- Jeraboam, Ahab, Menashe, Absalom, Bilam, Do'eg, Ahitofel, and Gehazi...

http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/mahshevt/avot/36-2.htm

Basically, for the really evil people, they're able to actually turn their soul into something physical and non eternal, to the extent that when they die, they die, thats the complete end... and thats the biggest punishment of all. I assume that means that thats what happened to someone as bad as Hitler.

[atheistjd]

Jewess, exactly.

Basically, it comes down to two simple principles:

1) We Jews do not accept original sin. Every morning we recite, 'elohai neshama shanatata bi, tehorah hi' - 'my God, the soul you have given me, she is pure'. Hence, to come back to my earlier quip: 'Jesus is the solution to a problem I don't have'.

2) Just look around the world we live in! Obviously, we do not live in a 'redeemed' world! There is no world peace, no universal brotherhood and - more controversially, I guess - no universal recognition of the 'One True God'. The proof, as they say, is in the pudding. Mashiach has not yet come.

Whatever our religious or political philosophy, most decent people in the world want world peace and brotherhood/sisterhood of humankind. May it be so speedily and in our days :)

As for scriptural debates. I simply refuse to engage on that level because it's pointless. People can always interpret and re-interpret Bible verses to say what they want them to say. Lord knows I do! :D (but from within the Jewish tradition, I hope :))

It's essentially a futile discussion because the New Testament is essentially a 'christological midrash' (interpretation) of our Prophetic literature. You can argue to high heaven whether Isaiah's 'suffering servant' in chapter 53 refers to the Jewish people as a whole or to Jesus. The Christian tradition will read that text in one way to 'justify' their perspective and we read it in another way to justify ours :)

Bolded is why I eventually gave up - but now I'm going to be a lawyer so I guess I will forever be stuck interpreting and reinterpreting :D

I do agree though - I am so much more inclined to lean towards the Jewish "interpretation" (hesitant to call it that since y'all came first to the party, so to speak, but it is what it is) and that is why I am curious to see a Christian (neither fundy nor Messianic, preferably, since objectivity and scholarship are not exactly their strong suits) explain why they believe it is OK to disregard the Jewish interpretation in favor of the "new" pro-Jesus interpretation. If that makes any sense :think:

[Soldier of the One]

Thanks, Jewess!

That's helpful. Do you think this also gives us more insight into what 'karet'/excision means?

[Alecto]

I find it interesting that the Jewish view of Messiah and the Christian view of the Anti-Christ I was raised with are very similar...