Kelly @ GC believes that 'conversation' equals education

[Olivia]

This. This x1000.

My mom recited all the same crap that Kelly promotes in this blog post all the time - and had me as "proof." I had post-high-school on all my state tests (until 9th grade and then never took another one because she had quit schooling me and knew I would fail!) and I loved learning (still do) and she had never once traditionally schooled me in anything. It was all conversational and self-motivated. So sure, I did fine. But I had the potential to do very well at school and I regret not going to an actual school every single day of my life. Of seven younger siblings NONE of them have an education to speak of. None of them even know how to write a book report or any of the basic things along that level.

Homeschooling/conversational teaching is all fine and good as a supplement. But neither one makes your kids self-motivated or guarantees a love of learning. Some homeschoolers get lucky with kids like me and think that is proof it works and is all you need or even all you need for a time. It's not.

For the sake of her kids Kelly needs to get a grip.

So I'm not the only one. There was no actual curriculum, or attempt on my mother's part to teach me, after fourth grade. I'm fairly smart. I read constantly as a child, and I wrote essays for fun. And despite my lack of formal education or any real parental interest, I still graduated home school high school with a NYS Regent's Diploma, got a 1400 on my SATs, received a hefty academic scholarship to a state school and a full scholarship to a private university, from which I graduated summa cum laude four years later.

But I feel like an idiot because there's always something I think I *should* have learned, that normal people know. I wonder what I could have done with a real education, where I might have gone if I had been better prepared for college. I feel like I would have been spared a measure of self-doubt that I can't shake, and avoided the depression I felt from being so very out of my depth during undergrad. And I'm lucky. I'm the best case scenario.

I'm not tied to any one educational method from an ideological viewpoint, and I'll educate my children however works best for them and for our family (though public school is my first choice). But I think homeschooling requires a real commitment, and if you aren't prepared to make that commitment, if it's going to stress you out, than "talking is enough" is not a good enough educational philosophy to take the burden off your shoulders. At that point, you are simply passing the burden to your children's shoulders. Just admit that it isn't working for you, and that you need to do something different to provide the best for your kids. It isn't all about you and how you appear in your community; when you pop out a kid, some things become about them.

[LynnKaboom]

I've met several individuals who were products of Christian homeschooling, and from what they said, their parents largely took Kelly's route towards their education. Not a single one of them is competent at... really anything, to be perfectly honest. I don't want to be mean, but there's really no more polite way to say this- these people fuck everything up, and I'm not exaggerating. Kelly is doing her kids a great disservice by taking this approach to their education.

[Jewess]

I was part of a homeschooling co-op... and man, there are some people that shouldn't be homeschooling. One of the homeschooling moms was a high school drop out, but wasn't even able to do basic math skills to teach her 7 and 8 year old kids...

Fortunately she got involved in a homeschooling co-op where there were classes taught by competent teachers so that her kids were able to get a semi decent education...

But if you aren't smart, aren't educated, please don't homeschool your kids entirely on your own. At the very least, get involved in a co-op, so someone educated can be teaching your kids!

[GenerationCedarchip]

I was part of a homeschooling co-op... and man, there are some people that shouldn't be homeschooling. One of the homeschooling moms was a high school drop out, but wasn't even able to do basic math skills to teach her 7 and 8 year old kids...

Fortunately she got involved in a homeschooling co-op where there were classes taught by competent teachers so that her kids were able to get a semi decent education...

But if you aren't smart, aren't educated, please don't homeschool your kids entirely on your own. At the very least, get involved in a co-op, so someone educated can be teaching your kids!

From talking to the homeschoolers I know as adults, it seems like the most well-educated ones were in co-ops or had access to things like community college for additional instruction. Even smart, educated parents won't know everything and being able to share skills with others just sounds like a good idea.

Kelly's attitude makes me crazy. The homeschool almost seems more important to her than her kids and their needs, which makes her "homeschooling" kind of an idol in my eyes. I have seen that "character counts more than academics" line on several blogs and it just makes me grit my teeth.

[treemom]

From personal experience, my children entered the public school system years ahead of their peers after homeschooling.

I don't think that homeschooling is the only way, or private school, or public school. I have done all three.

In my opinion, my children's education is my responsibility regardless of where they are learning. I need to make sure they know all of the things required to be a successful adult. I mean, I am lucky that they have decent schools, but I approach the schools as a partner.

The thing about these fundies is that if their children are getting a sorry-ass education at home, they likely would get the same at public school. Let's say they were forced to go to school. Kelly is not going to be the mom who checks the backpack for homework and offers supplemental learning opportunities. She is not going to be the mom who says, I'll do your chores because you need to work on that science project. Education is not a priority in that house.

The single greatest indicator of a child's academic success is parent involvement. My 2nd grader reads at a 7th grade level; there are illiterate children in his class who are still learning basic phonics even though they are otherwise bright children, and then everything in between.

I'm glad she talks to them (like all parents don't talk to their kids) but I think she is academically failing them with her goddamn attitude that school is just not that important.

+1

[treemom]

I was part of a homeschooling co-op... and man, there are some people that shouldn't be homeschooling. One of the homeschooling moms was a high school drop out, but wasn't even able to do basic math skills to teach her 7 and 8 year old kids...

Fortunately she got involved in a homeschooling co-op where there were classes taught by competent teachers so that her kids were able to get a semi decent education...

But if you aren't smart, aren't educated, please don't homeschool your kids entirely on your own. At the very least, get involved in a co-op, so someone educated can be teaching your kids!

I think this applies to a really small amount of human beings. Most people are fine to teach their own kids.

It isn't the lack of intelligence that is causing the problem with Kelly and others it is the hyperfocus on religion in lieu of the three R's and science.

[treemom]

While I would only homeschool in a very small amount of situations in the case of elementary school the teachers teach all the subjects and while I can assure you I liked the education my kid got the public school teachers were not smarter or better than any other average adult. Including adults who went to college. The training they get really helps with classroom management which isn't much of an issue for the average homeschooler.

I am a big supporter of public education because it is available to everyone and I want to keep it free and good. But I can't say that I think the average teacher possess magical abilities to educate 1:1 that the average parent who can educate 1:1 does.

Yes the Duggars education sucks. And Kelly's and lots of others. But by and large they don't represent the whole of homeschooling. And while I believe in strong homeschooling regulation and reporting (just like i do for private and public schools) I don't think educating your child, even through grade 12 is beyond the average adult.

[emmyfair]

While I would only homeschool in a very small amount of situations in the case of elementary school the teachers teach all the subjects and while I can assure you I liked the education my kid got the public school teachers were not smarter or better than any other average adult. Including adults who went to college. The training they get really helps with classroom management which isn't much of an issue for the average homeschooler.

I am a big supporter of public education because it is available to everyone and I want to keep it free and good. But I can't say that I think the average teacher possess magical abilities to educate 1:1 that the average parent who can educate 1:1 does.

Yes the Duggars education sucks. And Kelly's and lots of others. But by and large they don't represent the whole of homeschooling. And while I believe in strong homeschooling regulation and reporting (just like i do for private and public schools) I don't think educating your child, even through grade 12 is beyond the average adult.

Co-sign

[clarinetpower]

It bothers me that some homeschoolers' education is lacking, but it bothers me more that they think it is far superior to what students in a public school setting receive.

Because, you know, no one ever got me questioning anything or thinking for myself in public school--it was all rote learning and regurgitation: "When I grow to adulthood, I will abort my child and give all the government's money to the poor lazy bastards who never contribute to society, while shitting on good, proper Christians."

Didn't you?

[Austin]

I don't doubt that many parents could educate their children properly. But teachers do actually study more than their chosen subject matter and classroom management. As in pedagogy and child development and all sorts of important things that I was not exposed to during the quest for my business administration degree. It's not like anybody off the street can do the job well (although that's what many Americans seem to think).

I don't know if anyone is trying to say that or not. I could just be sensitive because I constantly hear teachers and the profession in general being dismissed. Everybody thinks they can be their own doctor, lawyer, accountant, and teacher these days, as if specialized knowledge and supervised practice doesn't matter one bit.

And while Emmie's children entered school miles ahead of their peers, many homeschoolers are way behind when their parents finally figure out this task is a full-time one and too much for them and put them in public school. Seems like we seldom hear about those situations.

This is not directed at anyone in particular, and I don't think you have to be a rocket scientist to educate your own child. I do think you need to be prepared for it to be a full-time job, for which you do not get paid (so only the relatively financially stable can afford such a luxury anyway).

[treemom]

I don't doubt that many parents could educate their children properly. But teachers do actually study more than their chosen subject matter and classroom management. As in pedagogy and child development and all sorts of important things that I was not exposed to during the quest for my business administration degree. It's not like anybody off the street can do the job well (although that's what many Americans seem to think).

I don't know if anyone is trying to say that or not. I could just be sensitive because I constantly hear teachers and the profession in general being dismissed. Everybody thinks they can be their own doctor, lawyer, accountant, and teacher these days, as if specialized knowledge and supervised practice doesn't matter one bit.

And while Emmie's children entered school miles ahead of their peers, many homeschoolers are way behind when their parents finally figure out this task is a full-time one and too much for them and put them in public school. Seems like we seldom hear about those situations.

This is not directed at anyone in particular, and I don't think you have to be a rocket scientist to educate your own child. I do think you need to be prepared for it to be a full-time job, for which you do not get paid (so only the relatively financially stable can afford such a luxury anyway).

I actually don't disagree with you. But I don't think knowing the stuff teachers know is beyond me or any adult of average intelligence. I don't think that what lawyers or doctors or accountants know is beyond me or the adult of average intelligence.

I wouldn't be good at those jobs, but that is personality and preference not the ability to understand the subject matter. And sometimes, actually a lot of times, my experience with grade school teachers is they also want to counsel parents on the parenting part of the job. Even when they don't have experience in parenting. It is a balance, good classroom teachers require different skills and different education than good homeschool teachers do.

If I thought anyone off the street could educate my child I probably would have gone that route :)

[clibbyjo]

Maybe I should start the "Ask a Homeschooling Goddess" post in the new forum? :)

[emmiedahl]

DO IT!!!!!!

[clibbyjo]

DO IT!!!!!!

:lol: I did... :whistle:

[clarinetpower]

:clap:

Thank you. Yes, I did actually study those things, and if you came and watched me in action in a classroom, frankly, I think you would be impressed. I have heard it from enough parents who have to know I am not tooting my own horn here (though I can teach you to toot yours!)

I have had homeschooled students in my class (who came to the schools I taught in to be involved in music) who were very well educated. I have had others who were homeschooled so poorly, they were far behind their peers, and others who were homeschooled because mom and dad didn't want to admit their kid was not a perfect being and had challenges they didn't want to face. That happens often, and the catch up after years of instruction from parents who were not trained to handle children with learning disabilities was nightmarish, but of course, it was then those teachers' faults the child didn't measure up, not the parents' fault. :roll:

Treemom, I am sorry you had a bad experience with teachers who weren't parents. I taught before I was a parent, and I think I'm a better teacher for now having children of my own. But I must say, the majority of teachers want to work WITH parents, not tell them what to do. You are a conscientious parent; there are many out there that would shock you with the things they do with their children, and then they come in to your classroom and tell you it's your job to fix all the problems that they have let build up over the years.

I admit, I love teaching in Catholic school, as I have off and on over the years. Not for religious reasons, but because I do know the parents really care, or they wouldn't be paying for it. Public school has many who do, but many who don't as well, and the teachers are fighting an uphill battle against those challenges coupled with all of the laymen who assume we're just lazy idiots sucking the teat of the government.

[aggythenostic]

One of the things that teachers get in teaching programs is practice. As in, student teaching. As in, with lots of children under supervision. I can appreciate that some people feel that the public school system isn't the place for certain kids, on the other hand, using your own kid as the practice subject doesn't strike me as always a great thing. The bottom line is that it's like any job - some people do better than others with it. But popping out a kid is no reason to believe that you're somehow a 'better' candidate to teach academic subjects. This is where they lose me.

[liltwinstar]

I want to know when the powers-that-be decided that the "school" part of "homeschool" didn't really matter any more?? Back when I was still religious, the local homeschooling expert in our church recommended that parents give their children math books that were two or three grades lower than where the kid should be, so the kid didn't get "frustrated." Further, when her daughter was in 5th grade, this mother decided that the swing-dancing and Spanish classes the daughter was taking was "enough for the academic year." Another boy (different family) didn't learn to read until he was 14 becuase his mom didn't really think it was necessary, and he eventually taught himself because he was embarrassed that he couldn't read. At the same time, the same mom was throwing Calculas books at her older daughter and expecting the daughter to just pick it up on her own without any help.

I'm the product of the first generation of homeschoolers - my parents started homeschooling in 1985, and I'll be 31 soon. I probably know of 40-50 homeschooled kids who are now adults, and it's a really mixed bag in terms of results. I know that 7 of us have graduated from college with BA/BS/BM degrees. One girl is still in college (she is significantly younger than me). Several people went into healthcare. Two went on to PhD programs. One is a policeman. Several women do freelance art stuff, and there are several stay at home moms. There are, interestingly, a *lot* of divorces amongst that crowd (at least 6 people, by my count - which just seems like a lot out of 45 or so people, when most of us have just hit 30 years old). Seems a lot of people got married between 20-22 , only to get divorced around 25-26, and then get re-married later.

While I don't think any of the 40-50 people I knew are in jail or anything like that (although I'm thinking of one person in particular who may have a criminal record), I wouldn't say that as a whole, the people I knew are doing *better* than the general population, the way that the experts promised we would. There are no wanna-be lawyers, politicians, or giant businesmen in the crowd that I know of. Most of us seem to live fairly ordinary lives (thank you facebook!). I'm sure that we've all had our struggles in becoming adults - I can think of some kids who lost a parent, others who dealt with an alcoholic family member, others who had to fight super controlling parents, some who dealt with undiagnosed learning disabilities, etc - but as far as I can tell, there's nothing really remarkable about any one of us (except possibly the PhD people - one of whom is my sister, so I'm biased). Granted, we're still young, but the early homeschooling experts promised our parents that if they did the homeschooling thing "right", we'd turn out to be these great influencers of society, changers of the culture, doing all sorts of big powerful things...and in my experience/observation, that hasn't happened.

I should say that I'm one of the lucky ones. My parents only had two kids, and they took the "school" part really seriously. I was able to go to college and graduate without any trouble, and I'm able to support myself and be a functioning member of society and all that. But, I do still feel like there are big gaps in my education - I can get my scientifically-minded, Jesuit-educated husband in stitches in seconds by asking about science (I have a lot of questions about physics, astronomy, and dinosaurs, to name a few, and he's had to clear up a lot of misconceptions - "no, liltwinstar, dinosaurs were not the size of sheep, no matter what Ken Hamm said"), my math knowledge is pretty minimal, and I suspect that my knowledge of early US History is tainted by Reconstructionist/Dominionist propaganda. Eventually, I hope to teach myself science and math and history to make up form my gaps in knowledge, but then I get angry that I have to do that, you know?

[clibbyjo]

I want to know when the powers-that-be decided that the "school" part of "homeschool" didn't really matter any more?? Back when I was still religious, the local homeschooling expert in our church recommended that parents give their children math books that were two or three grades lower than where the kid should be, so the kid didn't get "frustrated." Further, when her daughter was in 5th grade, this mother decided that the swing-dancing and Spanish classes the daughter was taking was "enough for the academic year." Another boy (different family) didn't learn to read until he was 14 becuase his mom didn't really think it was necessary, and he eventually taught himself because he was embarrassed that he couldn't read. At the same time, the same mom was throwing Calculas books at her older daughter and expecting the daughter to just pick it up on her own without any help.

I'm the product of the first generation of homeschoolers - my parents started homeschooling in 1985, and I'll be 31 soon. I probably know of 40-50 homeschooled kids who are now adults, and it's a really mixed bag in terms of results. I know that 7 of us have graduated from college with BA/BS/BM degrees. One girl is still in college (she is significantly younger than me). Several people went into healthcare. Two went on to PhD programs. One is a policeman. Several women do freelance art stuff, and there are several stay at home moms. There are, interestingly, a *lot* of divorces amongst that crowd (at least 6 people, by my count - which just seems like a lot out of 45 or so people, when most of us have just hit 30 years old). Seems a lot of people got married between 20-22 , only to get divorced around 25-26, and then get re-married later.

While I don't think any of the 40-50 people I knew are in jail or anything like that (although I'm thinking of one person in particular who may have a criminal record), I wouldn't say that as a whole, the people I knew are doing *better* than the general population, the way that the experts promised we would. There are no wanna-be lawyers, politicians, or giant businesmen in the crowd that I know of. Most of us seem to live fairly ordinary lives (thank you facebook!). I'm sure that we've all had our struggles in becoming adults - I can think of some kids who lost a parent, others who dealt with an alcoholic family member, others who had to fight super controlling parents, some who dealt with undiagnosed learning disabilities, etc - but as far as I can tell, there's nothing really remarkable about any one of us (except possibly the PhD people - one of whom is my sister, so I'm biased). Granted, we're still young, but the early homeschooling experts promised our parents that if they did the homeschooling thing "right", we'd turn out to be these great influencers of society, changers of the culture, doing all sorts of big powerful things...and in my experience/observation, that hasn't happened.

I should say that I'm one of the lucky ones. My parents only had two kids, and they took the "school" part really seriously. I was able to go to college and graduate without any trouble, and I'm able to support myself and be a functioning member of society and all that. But, I do still feel like there are big gaps in my education - I can get my scientifically-minded, Jesuit-educated husband in stitches in seconds by asking about science (I have a lot of questions about physics, astronomy, and dinosaurs, to name a few, and he's had to clear up a lot of misconceptions - "no, liltwinstar, dinosaurs were not the size of sheep, no matter what Ken Hamm said"), my math knowledge is pretty minimal, and I suspect that my knowledge of early US History is tainted by Reconstructionist/Dominionist propaganda. Eventually, I hope to teach myself science and math and history to make up form my gaps in knowledge, but then I get angry that I have to do that, you know?

Yeah, not everyone is a Colfax. :) (All the kids went to Harvard except one who is a chef. Its a good unschooling read http://www.amazon.com/Homeschooling-Exc ... 0446389862 )

I guess we are the second or 3rd wave,my oldest is 15. In my secular community, I only know a couple kids of college age and they are all in college and doing well. The secular homeschoolers assume their kids are going to college and I would say 90% of the parents have a college background.

[liltwinstar]

Heh - I remember watching the Colfaxes on Donahue, that's how old I am :)

I don't necessarily think that homeschooling is a bad thing - it's just not a guarantee of greatness. It also has the potential to go really, really badly when you mix it up with religiosity and isolation, and when you use it as a vehicle for religious indoctrination, rather than for, you know, education.

I am of the belief that homeschooling should be regulated (at the very least) to make sure that kids are up to grade level (or making progress if they have learning disabilities, etc) and that the kids are not isolated.

[treemom]

:clap:

Thank you. Yes, I did actually study those things, and if you came and watched me in action in a classroom, frankly, I think you would be impressed. I have heard it from enough parents who have to know I am not tooting my own horn here (though I can teach you to toot yours!)

I have had homeschooled students in my class (who came to the schools I taught in to be involved in music) who were very well educated. I have had others who were homeschooled so poorly, they were far behind their peers, and others who were homeschooled because mom and dad didn't want to admit their kid was not a perfect being and had challenges they didn't want to face. That happens often, and the catch up after years of instruction from parents who were not trained to handle children with learning disabilities was nightmarish, but of course, it was then those teachers' faults the child didn't measure up, not the parents' fault. :roll:

Treemom, I am sorry you had a bad experience with teachers who weren't parents. I taught before I was a parent, and I think I'm a better teacher for now having children of my own. But I must say, the majority of teachers want to work WITH parents, not tell them what to do. You are a conscientious parent; there are many out there that would shock you with the things they do with their children, and then they come in to your classroom and tell you it's your job to fix all the problems that they have let build up over the years.

I admit, I love teaching in Catholic school, as I have off and on over the years. Not for religious reasons, but because I do know the parents really care, or they wouldn't be paying for it. Public school has many who do, but many who don't as well, and the teachers are fighting an uphill battle against those challenges coupled with all of the laymen who assume we're just lazy idiots sucking the teat of the government.

I wouldn't call it a bad experience rather an annoying one.

I guess my point was that the bad parents often prevent their children from being as successful in learning as they could be no matter how they are schooled. A parent who is bad at homeschooling but persists at it is probably not going to be a very good parent in any way.

I also think the experience in private school is highly different depending on where you are. Most of the (very expensive compared to our rather cheap cost of living) private schools here are popular because our school districts are seen as bad and criticized. Those parents don't care more for their kids because they send them to private school, they are mostly scared of poor people or black people.

In other areas, where private school is more in with the other costs it is simply seen as a different way to school their kids.

[treemom]

One of the things that teachers get in teaching programs is practice. As in, student teaching. As in, with lots of children under supervision. I can appreciate that some people feel that the public school system isn't the place for certain kids, on the other hand, using your own kid as the practice subject doesn't strike me as always a great thing. The bottom line is that it's like any job - some people do better than others with it. But popping out a kid is no reason to believe that you're somehow a 'better' candidate to teach academic subjects. This is where they lose me.

But they are practicing on students no matter what (says parent of a student who has had two first year teachers one who was absolutely appalling and one who was absolutely wonderful.

[Brainsample]

Heh - I remember watching the Colfaxes on Donahue, that's how old I am :)

I first learned about homeschooling on Donahue, and I was fascinated. I remember that Colfax episode vividly, too.

[Brainsample]

I want to know when the powers-that-be decided that the "school" part of "homeschool" didn't really matter any more??

To the best of my ability to tell, I believe that it started early with Bill Gothard and his "Character First" type of initiative, selling the idea not as a way of fostering academic excellence because of the personal attention given to each child by their attentive mother, but as a means of keeping them from being indoctrinated and to protect them from drugs, sex, and that evil rock and roll.

Those who came behind him in his wake seem to me to mimic the selling of the lifestyle as opposed to the idea that it was an excellent educational opportunity for your children and likely the best way to educate them, especially when they were young.

Then, as it grew, we had the influx of those who were looking to make names for themselves, looking to make a buck, and they just saw the opportunity to sell the ideals of homeschooling as a lifestyle. It turned out to be a nice little money maker for them. Then, there were always the anti-establishment contingent that followed the Rushdoony vein of things who saw it as a way to push the agrarian lifestyle initiative, too.

[starfish]

It bothers me that some homeschoolers' education is lacking, but it bothers me more that they think it is far superior to what students in a public school setting receive.

Because, you know, no one ever got me questioning anything or thinking for myself in public school--it was all rote learning and regurgitation: "When I grow to adulthood, I will abort my child and give all the government's money to the poor lazy bastards who never contribute to society, while shitting on good, proper Christians."

Didn't you?

It's that attitude that any homeschooling or no schooling is better than the evil public schools that gets me. We even saw that with the Knight guy who came around here. It's completely unwarranted but they believe it with all sincerity.