What maketh a fundy?

[JesusFightClub]

I know we have regarded this question before, but today I was trying to come up with the definition of a fundie. I thought "It's someone who holds a particular belief very strongly. They dress and live in accordance with that belief. Very importantly, they try to push the belief on others. They think the world should be ordered to their standards and are willing to do and advocate some very strange things for their cause. They surround themselves with likeminded people. They hold views that many would find distasteful or undermining to society." I'd just described myself.

It can't be the case that a fundie has to be a theist, because you get fundie atheists. So not off the hook that easily.

What say ye, FJ? I have long spotted parallels between devout religious belief and devout political belief, which is how I approach and make sense of the fundy mindset. Like passing out tracts is like leafletting. Going so often to church, well, that's just like when you have a meeting every evening of the week. And so on.

But could there be fundies in many different ways? What if, for example, someone was like the fundies we usually snark on but also a really full on Tea Party enthusiast, would they be a double fundie? Could somebody be a fundie, for example, planespotter? Or

nudist?

Thoughts?

[JesusFightClub]

Oh, something else occurred to me as a big marker of fundydom. RULES RULES RULES.

What Kelya said in the UU thread got me thinking. A fundy is also someone who places great importance on rules and ritual. That is me, too. We call it different things, but commies of my stripe like our rules and we cannot lie ;) It confuses us when we see other political groupings doing things differently...why don't they have a proper party line? why can't they write competent motions? why don't they caucus? Where is the *discipline*???

Another way to understand the fundie mindset? Although this may rule out fundie nudists ;)

[Dinorah]

I've asked myself the same question and I think indeed wanting to push your beliefs on others and strongly looking down on anyone who's even slightly different from you are the key elements of fundie-ism. A deeply religious person, even one with legalistic tendencies isn't automatically a fundie.

And of course you can have fundies, or fanatics, with other issues than religion.

[debrand]

This is an excellent question. I do think that it is possible to be a nonreligious fundie. Perhaps the same type of personality that leads one person into religious fundamentalism might lead another person into a different kind of extremism. Could it is be the tendency to see everything as black or white that defines a true fundy?

By the way, I like rituals also.

[Jewess]

Personally, I think the definition of fundie is this:

There is only one right way to do things, and its the way I do things. Everyone else should do things exactly as I do, and if they won't do it on their own, I'll try to make them, either via harassment or legislation.

And I know, that goes for many things. Not just religious.

[fundies_like_zombies]

I think it is interesting that fundie bloggers and the ones that came here don't seee themselves as fundies.

[JesusFightClub]

This is an excellent question. I do think that it is possible to be a nonreligious fundie. Perhaps the same type of personality that leads one person into religious fundamentalism might lead another person into a different kind of extremism. Could it is be the tendency to see everything as black or white that defines a true fundy?

By the way, I like rituals also.

:) Great point!

Two new things to add to fundie definition?

I am an incredibly black and white thinker (but I try not to be). It just looks to me often that people are wrong politically and I can't get why they are wrong and still behave/believe that way. Don't they *know*? Is it not obvious?

And dinorah added looking down on others. I do not do this, I am more confused. But your average fundie really speaks of other people with contempt. Where does this contempt come from? Is it an attempt to reassure themselves?

[Dinorah]

I think the contempt is related to the sense of being better than others, and being unable to accept different opinions. However, if you're aware you might think in black and white and so forth, then you aren't fundie-inclined.

I've become more tollerant towards people I don't agree with since discovering fundies, because I don't want to be like they are. My stance is that there are people whose lifestyles and values might clash and disagree) violently with my own, but they can do what they want as long as they don't force their opinions on others and hurt no one (and unfortunately many fundies do both of these things).

[Kaylee]

I think the things mentioned are all true of a fundie type mindset - believing they have the "one true way" and everyone else is wrong and/or must either be converted to their way of thinking or banned from or punished for dissenting. I see the same mindset in a lot of religious movements & political movements, and some other ideological causes/groups.

As far as looking down on others, it is pretty common, in part because if someone believes they follow or possess the only "truth", then others who reject that are going to be seen as either evil/bad or ignorant/deluded. Part of it probably does come from low self esteem and trying to reassure themselves of their own worth, but not in a way they'd admit or even realize.

There's a book from the 50s called "The True Believer" that deals with the psychology and personalities behind mass movements. The author theorizes that certain people/personalities are more drawn to certain types of movements because they are seeking a promise of a great cause or glorious future (usually because of insecurity, guilt, or personal failings). I'm not sure how most sociologists view it, but it rang pretty true to me, especially the parts on how people will "flip flop" from one movement to another (neo-nazi to militant anti-racist, nationalist or political extremist to religious extremist, etc).

It's easier for some people to cling onto anything that gives them a goal, certainty, and some sort of misplaced pride than to square up with themselves and develop real pride and self-esteem and understanding of other viewpoints and "shades of grey". Even coming out of one fundie belief, it's easier to latch onto one of another sort than to think for yourself once your used to rigid beliefs and a clear sense of "us", "them", and who you should be allied with so you might end up with someone who is no longer a religious fundie but turns into a hardcore political fundie, Tea Partier, etc.

[deelaem]

I suspect that there is a significant difference between your political party and fundieism, JFC. That being that if you decide to leave your group, there is no real or perceived threat of retaliation, harm, or eternal damnation. Also, I expect you arrived at your political alliance as the result of critical thought, rather than coercion.

I consider fundamentalism to be a cult, they just make it more palatable by hooking it onto already socially acceptable theologies. If you look at the psychological profile of cult members, it's easy to see why fundies happen. Here's an article I found that discusses that.

http://www.bates.edu/x221617.xml

Some highlights from the article are -

Unethically manipulative techniques of persuasion and control include, but are not limited to, deception regarding the group's identity and true goals, isolation from family and former friends, "love-bombing" by new "friends," use of special methods to heighten compliance, peer pressure, encouraging the suspension of critical judgment and autonomy, promotion of total dependency on the group.

Destructive cults, then are likely to exhibit 3 elements to varying degrees:

members' excessively zealous, unquestioning commitment to the identity, ideology, and leadership of the group;

exploitative manipulation of members; and

harm or the danger of harm (psychological, emotional, intellectual, spiritual, and/or physical) to members, their families, and/or society

And here's a list of who becomes involved in cults:

great dependence on others

lack of assertiveness

uncritical trust of other people and groups

low tolerance for ambiguity (wants simple "right" or "wrong" answers to complex questions)

unfulfilled desire for spiritual meaning,

cultural and religious disillusionment

I think that "low tolerance for ambiguity" to be one of the key factors of religious fanaticism.

ETA: And I simply have to quote keeperrox's immortal words of another thread, "these people are not readers". :lol:

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Personally, I think the definition of fundie is this:

There is only one right way to do things, and its the way I do things. Everyone else should do things exactly as I do, and if they won't do it on their own, I'll try to make them, either via harassment or legislation.

And I know, that goes for many things. Not just religious.

I'd say that's a big part of it, plus an additional attitude of "we have the source, it has been decreed, truth is known and set out from the beginning, and so all future observations must be bent to fit our previously known truth, NOT the other way around."

Depending on the religion, that then leads to a need for hyper-sheltering in certain areas, depending on just where the "received truth" conflicts with modern knowledge or custom. Young earth creationism is the obvious religious example in the US, but various religions that insist their people were created or emerged from the ground in the United States have issues with migration theory, that sort of thing, and of course outside of religion there's the homeopathy stuff...

So you can often identify fundies by the hypersheltering, but that's really a symptom, I think.

[Brainsample]

I think the things mentioned are all true of a fundie type mindset - believing they have the "one true way" and everyone else is wrong and/or must either be converted to their way of thinking or banned from or punished for dissenting. I see the same mindset in a lot of religious movements & political movements, and some other ideological causes/groups.

As far as looking down on others, it is pretty common, in part because if someone believes they follow or possess the only "truth", then others who reject that are going to be seen as either evil/bad or ignorant/deluded. Part of it probably does come from low self esteem and trying to reassure themselves of their own worth, but not in a way they'd admit or even realize.

There's a book from the 50s called "The True Believer" that deals with the psychology and personalities behind mass movements. The author theorizes that certain people/personalities are more drawn to certain types of movements because they are seeking a promise of a great cause or glorious future (usually because of insecurity, guilt, or personal failings). I'm not sure how most sociologists view it, but it rang pretty true to me, especially the parts on how people will "flip flop" from one movement to another (neo-nazi to militant anti-racist, nationalist or political extremist to religious extremist, etc).

It's easier for some people to cling onto anything that gives them a goal, certainty, and some sort of misplaced pride than to square up with themselves and develop real pride and self-esteem and understanding of other viewpoints and "shades of grey". Even coming out of one fundie belief, it's easier to latch onto one of another sort than to think for yourself once your used to rigid beliefs and a clear sense of "us", "them", and who you should be allied with so you might end up with someone who is no longer a religious fundie but turns into a hardcore political fundie, Tea Partier, etc.

Great book. But not all fundamentalists are cultic in the way that Eric Hoffer describes. (I tend to defer to Robert Lifton's criteria, too.) But not all fundies are spiritually abusive and may just be rigid and legalistic with followers, however acerbic they may seem if you don't measure up to their requirements and beliefs.

Florence Henderson talked about the Authoritarians book last weekend, and I think that Chip Berlet's Right Wing Populism defines how fundamentalists approach and perceive life because of how they're trained. Everything is a conspiracy that is preventing whatever great thing God is trying to do, and there is always some evil villain out there who is trying thwart every good plan of the church and what God wants (as if He can't do what He wants and when). People who approach life as a conspiracy and with that fearful element of something between insecurity and outright paranoia aren't necessarily abusers.

They're just a bit extreme. And that extremism may be the hallmark element, too. That's where the flip flop stuff comes in. People never get over or train themselves out of the Right wing approach to viewing life, so they leave one addictive situation that provides them constant emotional arousal (fear, paranoia, conspiracy), and when they leave, they are empty. To fill the void, they look for a new group, and they end up right back in another group that is just as much out of balance and controlling as the one that they left. The problem is not the group, its the mindset and outlook on life. Some people are also using these things to distract them from their own pain and trauma that they never resolved.

I've been relatively happy attending a mainline denomination, just because I've not been around anyone trying to sell me Amway or jewelry or cosmetics. No one gives pompous lectures about how drinking Diet Coke is poison (though it may well be, but it's not something you need to hear someone harangue about at church). I've had ten years away from people trying to sell me Shakley vitamins! I haven't been around anyone who goes for colonics. No one wants to sell me a burial plot or a funeral plan. But at the old fundie places, I felt like I was constantly running from people who were trying to sell either a product or some other ideologicial thing that was going to cure everything that ailed me. Someone's new book. Weigh down workshop. That was another thing. Oh please. Who else wants to save me from myself. I think these were all alternate addictive systems and beliefs that were fostered by the whole right wing outlook.

[Brainsample]

Technically, I am a fundie lite, but Doggie said that since I have a sense of humor, I'm atypical or something and qualify as an FJer. Per that other thread, the core qualifier that makes you a Christian is summed up by the Nicean Creed, and that is about as fundie as it gets.

The other thing that occurs to me, however, is that most "fundies" in the fullest fundy sense feel threatened when others disagree with them, and it creates a great deal of anxiety for them. I generally don't feel that way, and people are diverse and believe a host of different things which in no way should diminish what I believe. I would like to think that I am not threatened in this same way which makes me quite different -- I don't feel the need to be paternalistic and actually think it's quite wrong and unChristian. So that fear factor of feeling threatend is something that I see as a distinguishing factor, more so than specific beliefs about doctrine.

[Brainsample]

I'd say that's a big part of it, plus an additional attitude of "we have the source, it has been decreed, truth is known and set out from the beginning, and so all future observations must be bent to fit our previously known truth, NOT the other way around."

Depending on the religion, that then leads to a need for hyper-sheltering in certain areas, depending on just where the "received truth" conflicts with modern knowledge or custom. Young earth creationism is the obvious religious example in the US, but various religions that insist their people were created or emerged from the ground in the United States have issues with migration theory, that sort of thing, and of course outside of religion there's the homeopathy stuff...

So you can often identify fundies by the hypersheltering, but that's really a symptom, I think.

Could you say that this is also a function of an "external locus of control" as opposed to believing that a certain way is right?

The stereotypical fundie in the pejorative sense seems to gauge and benchmark themselves off of other people, and they try desperately to control the environment to adjust it to their comfort level. That involves a huge amount of intolerance.

Look at a group of people who believe passionately about a certain way and approach to doing things. Politics, for example. I remember when Reagan was running as a presidential candidate, and George Bush said of "trickle down" economics that it was "Voodoo economics." They ended up being running mates and had a long political career together that worked quite well. I'm sure George the Senior didn't throw out his well thought beliefs on economics but used self control to do what he needed to do to hold the office. He changed some things when his day came during his own administration, changing things to accommodate his own outlook and letting others ride because it wasn't worth changing. Two strongly opinionated guys that worked it out. Most fundies can't do that, and it isn't because of their beliefs necessarily. I see it as a function of intolerance and a rigid need to control others around them to provide for their own comfort level. My way or the highway.

In its own way, it shows disrespect to others, and it is a way of using people like tools or objects. It's easy to do because of the moralizing that goes on in these groups. Christianity is supposed to be about the idea that no one merits God's favor, but you get the opportunity to receive that which you could never earn. That should make you humble and grateful, but for many, it becomes a source of pride and "survival of the fittest." This is a primitive ego function and children do it all the time. "He's a bad man." "She's a good person." It creates a sense of safety for those who don't see things with the proper degree of complexity, necessary for survival when you are under duress or limited like a child. But it's not good as a 24/7 way of life for all seasons.

Pia Melody calls this "One upping" yourself against the competition and "one downing" the competition to give yourself the illusion of feeling better about yourself. It is nothing more than an illusion. The real Christian response is that we are all a mess, we all have our bad days, but we are capable of goodness, and we should offer that goodness to others because it was offered to us when we didn't deserve it. When we shift into that benchmarking mentality, however, we go back into the way that a child responds. And what of having faith in God to care for us? That gets thrown away in favor of fear and a desire to control.

[Soldier of the One]

I think all of the above are fine variables that define a certain mindset as fundamentalist.

I'd add to that the rejection of empiricism and the scientific method. Fundamentalist beliefs often want to eschew 'science'/the scientific method and do not want their paradigm challenged.

I believe in God and live my life accordingly. Yet, I am also fully capable of acknowledging that, ultimately, there is no scientific proof for God (or lack of God). It doesn't offend my religious sensibilities to embrace rationalism or to face the limitations of my own belief-system, no matter how spiritually and emotionally vested I am in it.

I love my God and I love my faith. But technically, I could be wrong. And I can live with that :) I think many fundies cannot face this tension.