A question for the younger Feminists

[JesusFightClub]

But pissing off other antifascists is not going to help the cause.

Hell, we piss each other off all the time. I am a fan of direct confrontation, and if fascists assemble, I will attempt to, um, put this into practice. Some people strongly disagree with that approach. Well, we can have the debate, I make my point, they make theirs.

But if they *actually got put off their opposition to fascists* because of the fact people like me exist, you'd really question their antifascism in the first place.

[Lychee]

Delurks to post this:

http://youtu.be/85HT4Om6JT4

[Shirley MacLaine]

Delurks to post this:

http://youtu.be/85HT4Om6JT4

So on point!

[JesusFightClub]

This? Should win a best delurking prize. :)

[Katiebug]

ikr? I am not saying this to criticize my husband. He is as liberated as a man can be in this very misogynist world. But I get a little tired of seeing him petted and praised by everyone for helping out. We are both full-time students and I am the main source of income. Why is it so amazing that I cook and he does the dishes? Why is he a saint for taking the baby for a walk in the evening when I care for the baby all day while doing school work and a job? It bugs me because it makes those things seem optional. It is not optional for me and it should not be optional for him.

A-fucking-men.

Mr. Bug does what he's supposed to do as a spouse and a parent and a co-owner of our home. We both work full time, I go to grad school at night, and we have a toddler. We believe in equally shared parenting and strive to actually live it out as best we can given the constraints we have to work with. I don't get told how wonderful I am for emptying the dishwasher or doing the laundry. In fact, I've been criticized for using clean clothes out of laundry baskets because I didn't put the damned things away! I guess I "should" do those things according to those folks. Yet when he does anything, he's supposed to be thanked and praised. He's been fawned over for taking the kid to the park, for walking her to the front of the church for the children's sermon, or for mowing the freaking lawn. Seriously - when the hell do I get accolades for doing what I'm supposed to do? :lol: It would be nice to get some appreciation from a complete stranger.

Ironically my SIL has a degree in women's studies and her thesis was on third wave feminism, yet at family gatherings she goes right along with the routine of "men sitting in the living room watching football, or occasionally grilling or frying a turkey outside, while the women prepare everything, wrangle the children, and clean up." She and her husband both work full time but SIL does much of the housework and child care (to be fair BIL does do some things but it's not equally shared).

My mom told me once that her MIL criticized her when my dad (MIL's son!) came into the kitchen to help wash dishes, or if he changed a diaper. My parents have always had a pretty egalitarian marriage (both of them work outside the home, with the exception of my mom staying home for my first year). Grandma was pretty progressive for a 1950s housewife in that she went to work part time by choice once the kids were all in school, but she still did almost everything related to cooking, cleaning, and children. She had the same expectation of her daughter and daughter-in-law, that IF they worked outside the home they still had responsibilities in the home and that the men should be allowed to relax. My aunt has been a homemaker since she got married (to a doctor) but my mom has always worked outside the home, and Grandma let my mom know that she was ostensibly shirking her wifely duties by "making" my dad do things.

Anyways, it seems like this is an attitude shared by many - whether or not they'll admit it. I suspect this view is the origin of many women today having two "jobs" - one for pay and the other being much of the work around the house and the hands-on child care.

[fundies_like_zombies]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/ ... g/22/women

[Eponine]

We all saw the Miss Representation trailer, right? If you haven't please watch it now. (I can't find the extended one on YouTube, sorry.)

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=2349117563337

It really is pointless to pretend that women and men face the same body image pressure. Do men have pressure? Yes of course. But women learn very early on that their looks in many ways determine their worth - much more than any other single aspect of their identity - and men do not get that same message. This is pretty evident in statistics.

According to the American Society for Aesthetic Plastic Surgery, women had 92% of plastic surgery procedures in the US in 2010. This includes: 91% of surgical procedures, 92% of injections, 92% of skin rejuvenations. There were 37,193 cases of liposuction for men - the top procedure for men - and 251,834 cases for women - and that wasn't the top procedure for women, which was breast augmentation at 319,123. http://www.surgery.org/sites/default/fi ... 2010_1.pdf

This article says that men comprise 5-15% of those with anorexia or bulimia, and 35% of those with binge eating disorder. http://eating-disorders.emedtv.com/eati ... stics.html

This one says women are 20 times more likely to develop anorexia and 10 times more likely to develop bulimia. http://www.womenshealthdata.ca/category.aspx?catid=80

The South Carolina Department of Mental Health says seven times more American women have eating disorders than men, and again that at most 15% of anorexia and bulimia sufferers are men. Also 95% of eating disorders appear in those aged 12-25 - definitely an age group where women would be more concerned with personal issues than their representation in government or equal pay, things like that. http://www.state.sc.us/dmh/anorexia/statistics.htm

Even if you take into account that it's undoubtedly harder for men to admit to having an eating disorder or seek treatment for it, or that it is less socially acceptable for men to have cosmetic procedures, these statistics show a radical difference in how body image affects women and men.

So no, it's not helpful to say that men don't face body image pressure or that they are not affected by ideal bodies in advertising and such. But it's clear that it effects women on a much wider level.

[formergothardite]

Things must be way different where CH lives because a couple of years ago I took a class at a local community college, the stuff I overheard guys say about women's bodies was vomit inducing. And yes, stretch marks and sagging boobs were considered gross. Guys would say stuff like "Man, did you hear that that hot girl from history is pregnant? Her body is ruined now." or "She has a pretty face, too bad she is so fat. I'd date her if she would lose weight." Granted these were college guys, but the young college women were overhearing all this too.

[deelaem]

I think women have embraced their sexuality as a part of women's liberation, but that this has been turned on us. Our sexuality is not ours, but rather a public commodity.

Ok, for this thought alone, you get a batch of my very best brownies and brand-new Sharpie with which to commit minor subversive acts. :twisted:

[Olivia]

I just want to know how we fix the body image issues. Talking about it really does help, I think -- just having the acknowledgment that yeah, this standard is bogus. It would help if the media were more responsive.

Personally, I try to stay far, far away from 'women's magazines'. I made the mistake recently of reading a so-called women's fitness mag that told me REMEMBER YOU CAN'T EAT THE SAME THINGS YOUR HUSBAND DOES, HE CAN INDULGE BUT IF YOU DO YOU'LL BE A FATTIE FOREVER, FATTIE (Ok, it didn't actually say fattie, but it came close). As well as an article about Jessica Alba's post-pregnancy exercise regimen. JESSICA ALBA HAS HER BABY AND THEN WORKS OUT FOR 3 HOURS A DAY AND ONLY EATS 1200 CALORIES A DAY AND GETS HER BODY BACK IN A FEW MONTHS, WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM?

There's this fake message of female empowerment espoused in the editorial sections of these mags, but it doesn't jive at all with the content of 90% of the pages.

I have above-average body image and confidence without having an above-average appearance, and I've been trying to figure out where that comes from. It seems to me like happiness in one's appearance has nothing to do with how one actually looks, given some of the gorgeous women I know who are chronically insecure. And I wonder if, on some level, my confidence comes from always having been in male-dominated activities and career fields. In my experience, I've had more 'girlfriends' suggest I should go on a diet or exercise more or get a new wardrobe; my guy friends were the ones who told me I looked sexy, or that guys were always staring at me and I just didn't notice, or that I had a body type men love. I don't know if that's just my own special situation, though. (And I've certainly had guys suggest that I wasn't attractive enough one way or another, or overheard them talking crap about another women, too, but luckily, it's been a rarity).

The idea of raising a girl in this world is a little bit scary.

[Olivia]

And yes, stretch marks and sagging boobs were considered gross.

Yeah, I'd have to disagree with CH that most people think stretch marks and sagging boobs are acceptable, even if they are the natural legacy of childbirth. I really want to believe, as a feminist, that my body is perfectly fine and sexy and beautiful if post-pregnancy I have the sag and the stretch marks and the whatnot. But. I'm not sure even I can believe that. I think it takes a strong woman in this society to feel good about herself when her body is so far from the ideal of the seventeen-year-old model.

[deelaem]

Yeah, I'd have to disagree with CH that most people think stretch marks and sagging boobs are acceptable, even if they are the natural legacy of childbirth. I really want to believe, as a feminist, that my body is perfectly fine and sexy and beautiful if post-pregnancy I have the sag and the stretch marks and the whatnot. But. I'm not sure even I can believe that. I think it takes a strong woman in this society to feel good about herself when her body is so far from the ideal of the seventeen-year-old model.

You're probably never going to totally believe your body is fine. That's just the reality of how we women were programmed by the patriarchy. But it's something you can work on and become more rebellious about. And you can learn to place the blame for your not "measuring up" to the ideal squarely where it belongs, on the back of our patriarchal society. If you can't always feel good about yourself, it is not because you're not a strong woman. It's because of the constant bombardment from society of dangerous and mixed messages. We women really need to let ourselves off the hook for so many things.

[Guest Anonymous]

Everyone is talking about what women deserve, when an issue affects men why can we not talk about what they also deserve?

Because there are zero men who have identified themselves as such and posted in this thread. Because you are talking over and dismissing real women posters with real concerns and feelings because of your martyr-like concern for hypothetical men, whom you know do not struggle with this issue on anything near the scale that women do.

To the third: Sorry, but no one is forcing that poster to spend so much time on her looks. She is capable of making the choice to eliminate the things she doesn't like or doesn't think she needs to do. I learned that lesson a long time ago when I realized that claiming I have to do something to please society is letting those who do hold oppressive and unrealistic ideals about women and their bodies win.

What I don't like is when women complain about all they do to look perfect and then blame someone else for their own refuse to make the choice to not do it.

I wish I lived where you do where you can just say "fuck all that I'm not doing it" and not suffer serious consequences. If one wants to get and keep certain types of jobs that pay enough to live on, where I live sometimes one has to perform femininity. When it's humor the patriarchy and put food on the table or refuse and go hungry sometimes women have to humor the fucking patriarchy. Except you, of course.

Perhaps you have done so much clashing with feminists in the past because you do not seem to empathize with other women and their struggles. It's like someone who has 15 crazy exes that all hate them. At some point they need to consider that maybe it's not all of their exes with the problem, maybe it's something they're doing.

[emmiedahl]

I think it is good to discuss this stuff openly because it seems trivial until you really look at the issue.

I commented to a friend after my daughter was born that with baby boys, people comment on how strong, healthy and intelligent they seem. With girls, it's all "pretty". It kind of became a joke in my circle; whenever someone would have a girl, we would say, "She is so healthy and strong! Look at that grip! And she is already looking around; she'll be a smart one." No one in my "circle" would say pretty in reference to an infant after that. That is a good change, and it happened from one person noticing in a humorous manner that my 2 day old daughter was already being judged on her appearance.

[Soldier of the One]

This thread is really depressing me :(

Not because the discussions are poor but quite the opposite: because the discussions are excellent and it makes me realize how little has been achieved.

Being married to a feminist who affirms my attractiveness and who does more than his share of housework has made me a little sheltered to the harsh, cruel things that college-age women have to put up with.

Like I said: really depressing.

How can we ever fight religious mysogyny if this is what the secular world gives us?

[Guest Anonymous]

I think it is good to discuss this stuff openly because it seems trivial until you really look at the issue.

I commented to a friend after my daughter was born that with baby boys, people comment on how strong, healthy and intelligent they seem. With girls, it's all "pretty". It kind of became a joke in my circle; whenever someone would have a girl, we would say, "She is so healthy and strong! Look at that grip! And she is already looking around; she'll be a smart one." No one in my "circle" would say pretty in reference to an infant after that. That is a good change, and it happened from one person noticing in a humorous manner that my 2 day old daughter was already being judged on her appearance.

emmie, that's awesome.

[Soldier of the One]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2008/aug/22/women

Thanks for that find, fundies_like_zombies. That's a really interesting read! (And I think I might create a post to discuss this ;))

[Shirley MacLaine]

I just want to know how we fix the body image issues. Talking about it really does help, I think -- just having the acknowledgment that yeah, this standard is bogus. It would help if the media were more responsive.

One thing that has been really helpful to me is 'exposure therapy' - seeking out websites that have a lot of pictures of varied bodies. Health at Every Size pages and Tumblrs, the normal breasts gallery, mybodygallery.com, etc.

[Boltingmadonna]

I have a feeling that if Canadian Hippie had said something more like, "I think I have some idea why women are concerned with gender issues, because I know I've often felt excluded by other men because I'm not "manly" enough. This kind of thing is bad for men too!" he probably would have received some of the attention he obviously wants. It's this butt-hurt attitude that feminists are Doin It Rong if they don't pay just as much attention to HIS issues as we do to our own that is irritating.

I imagine him going onto a Zionist website and pointing out that Jews need to get over themselves and stop imagining that people are out to get them--after all, Muslims have just as many problems as they do!

Or entering a discussion of issues in the black community with the news that racism is over, and from now on the only racists are black people who refuse to care equally about the problems of white men!

Or going to a support group for gay men who have been bullied, and informing them that he has been bullied too, so they need to stop talking about their problems and commiserate with him.

I trust my point is obvious. Feminism is the only movement that is constantly chided for not putting other people first. Nobody dumps on Tibetans because they aren't spending their time and money promoting the movement for Puerto Rican independence, in addition to their own. Yet for some reason women are expected to expand their concerns to cover everybody else in the whole world before we can be heard. Yes, I understand the problems of intersectionality with class and race. But that doesn't mean it's our job to make all the men in the world feel totally understood and affirmed before we can discuss our own issues!

[Guest Anonymous]

I have a feeling that if Canadian Hippie had said something more like, "I think I have some idea why women are concerned with gender issues, because I know I've often felt excluded by other men because I'm not "manly" enough. This kind of thing is bad for men too!" he probably would have received some of the attention he obviously wants. It's this butt-hurt attitude that feminists are Doin It Rong if they don't pay just as much attention to HIS issues as we do to our own that is irritating.

I imagine him going onto a Zionist website and pointing out that Jews need to get over themselves and stop imagining that people are out to get them--after all, Muslims have just as many problems as they do!

Or entering a discussion of issues in the black community with the news that racism is over, and from now on the only racists are black people who refuse to care equally about the problems of white men!

Or going to a support group for gay men who have been bullied, and informing them that he has been bullied too, so they need to stop talking about their problems and commiserate with him.

I trust my point is obvious. Feminism is the only movement that is constantly chided for not putting other people first. Nobody dumps on Tibetans because they aren't spending their time and money promoting the movement for Puerto Rican independence, in addition to their own. Yet for some reason women are expected to expand their concerns to cover everybody else in the whole world before we can be heard. Yes, I understand the problems of intersectionality with class and race. But that doesn't mean it's our job to make all the men in the world feel totally understood and affirmed before we can discuss our own issues!

CanadianHippie is a woman, but word to all of the bolded.

[antifundie]

I trust my point is obvious. Feminism is the only movement that is constantly chided for not putting other people first. Nobody dumps on Tibetans because they aren't spending their time and money promoting the movement for Puerto Rican independence, in addition to their own. Yet for some reason women are expected to expand their concerns to cover everybody else in the whole world before we can be heard. Yes, I understand the problems of intersectionality with class and race. But that doesn't mean it's our job to make all the men in the world feel totally understood and affirmed before we can discuss our own issues!

OMG, this is f-ing GENIUS. Quoted for truth.

[Aislynn]

I commented to a friend after my daughter was born that with baby boys, people comment on how strong, healthy and intelligent they seem. With girls, it's all "pretty". It kind of became a joke in my circle; whenever someone would have a girl, we would say, "She is so healthy and strong! Look at that grip! And she is already looking around; she'll be a smart one." No one in my "circle" would say pretty in reference to an infant after that. That is a good change, and it happened from one person noticing in a humorous manner that my 2 day old daughter was already being judged on her appearance.

This is awesome. Makes me so happy to hear that people are actively fighting this. I have almost two year old twins - a boy and a girl. It is AMAZING the assumptions and remarks people make - always positive toward the boy and always demeaning toward the girl. They don't see it as a problem - what girl doesn't want to be called "ladylike" and "girly" and "pretty" and "dainty." But the boy gets "strong" and "tough" and "smart" and "energetic" and "entertaining." I find myself constantly explaining that "No, he is not the tough one - he's actually quite sensitive" and "actually he is much more emotional than she is."

I feel for both of them, growing up in a world where the accepted stereotypes don't fit either of their personalities.

[CanadianHippie]

OMG, this is f-ing GENIUS. Quoted for truth.

I didn't realize caring about other people in similar situations was a such a horrible thing. You want to take issue with the patriarch, take issue with the patriarch, not it's victims.

[emmiedahl]

I don't think feminism means that you hate the men in your life for having an advantage. But there is nothing wrong with acknowledging that they have that advantage. We are all victims of patriarchy, but we need to fight that by building up women's opportunities and addressing the prejudice, not by feeling bad for men just because they happen to live on the same planet.

[Guest Anonymous]

I didn't realize caring about other people in similar situations was a such a horrible thing. You want to take issue with the patriarch, take issue with the patriarch, not it's victims.

I completely agree with you that patriarchy hurts men too. But I regard our current society as a triage situation. Women have been wounded by patriarchy and they are bleeding out, lying on the ground. We can save them if we apply pressure to their wounds and try to stop the bleeding. Men have been wounded by patriarchy and they have broken limbs. They're painful and they should be set and tended to, but not at the expense of those who have more urgent needs.

If you want to set broken limbs in a crisis situation I'm not going to argue with you, but I wish you would stop yelling about how everyone who is holding arteries closed needs to stop that and come set limbs.