Jump to content
IGNORED

A question for the younger Feminists


Guest experienced

Recommended Posts

My point? Women aren't "allowed" to talk about the "big stuff" until we've done the above. If I showed up to talk about feminism and had frizzy hair, a unibrow, hairy legs and hadn't showered for a day? Nobody would take me seriously. These are issues about our BODIES, and that's really fucking personal.

Sorry, but whoever taught you that wasn't your friend. You can make people take you seriously, even if you don't spend 30 minutes to an hour to get ready. I've never had trouble with people taking me seriously and it takes me on average 10 minutes to get ready, 30 if I need to take a shower, and I'm fat to boot. My experience, people are less likely to take you seriously if you look like the "ideal", because the ideal, in case you have forgotten, is also inept in anything that doesn't involve cooking or cleaning.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 142
  • Created
  • Last Reply

This is ridiculous. How did you get from people saying that the beauty industry affects women more than men to capital letters and hatred?

I don't hate men and I don't see how anything I've written in this thread suggests that I do.

You are the one who actually had the gall to ask me if I'm actually a feminist, and if I think there is equality between the sexes. I have done nothing to imply either of those things. And it's not just you, it's a life time of people tell me that I can't be a real feminist just because I care that the way things are hurts men too, and want to change that just as much.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry, but whoever taught you that wasn't your friend. You can make people take you seriously, even if you don't spend 30 minutes to an hour to get ready. I've never had trouble with people taking me seriously and it takes me on average 10 minutes to get ready, 30 if I need to take a shower, and I'm fat to boot. My experience, people are less likely to take you seriously if you look like the "ideal", because the ideal, in case you have forgotten, is also inept in anything that doesn't involve cooking or cleaning.

Nobody "taught" me that--it's what I've learned by living in the real world. How many people criticize Hilary Clinton or even Michelle Obama or Ruth Bader Ginsburg (Ginsberg?) or even Sarah Palin based on their appearance and dress? Do you think Sarah Palin would have been tapped for VP candidate if she was fat/ugly/hairy? No. Hilary Clinton shows a little cleavage and it's all over the news, and Michelle Obama's arms become the topic of debate. Powerful women ARE judged by their appearance. Do people notice if a man wears a gray or black suit? No. But Sonia Sotomayor's jacket color gets national attention.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have had opposite sex supervisors give me in depth instruction as to how my nails should be groomed and whether I should wear more orthopedically destructive shoes because they are more professional.

My natural secretions are so nasty that they must be hid and denied at all costs. Not just covered up or made acceptable.

My healthy, in a healthy weight range body is ugly by commercial standards.

I just watched a rerun of That 70's Show and every ad was for my gender's makeup or hygiene products (except for one telling me how to clean my house. with a female. None were for men.

Can we argue that any of the above happen to men on a regular basis? No? But they are pretty normal for women.

I am sure the men have some grooming standards that they must live up to, but it is nothing compared to those that women are held to. Not even on the same plane. And as long as women are held to unreasonable and virtually unachievable standards, feminists should care.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Anonymous
You are the one who actually had the gall to ask me if I'm actually a feminist, and if I think there is equality between the sexes. I have done nothing to imply either of those things. And it's not just you, it's a life time of people tell me that I can't be a real feminist just because I care that the way things are hurts men too, and want to change that just as much.

I asked you questions because I wanted to know the answers to them, it wasn't meant to be insulting. Not everyone here identifies as a feminist. Sometimes people's posts make it obvious one way or another, but not always. I also haven't told you that you aren't or can't be a feminist, although it's interesting that you say many people question if you are one or not. To me, your concern for men is reading as minimizing women's problems, and even as dislike for women. Maybe it comes off that way to other people as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I asked you questions because I wanted to know the answers to them, it wasn't meant to be insulting. Not everyone here identifies as a feminist. Sometimes people's posts make it obvious one way or another, but not always. I also haven't told you that you aren't or can't be a feminist, although it's interesting that you say many people question if you are one or not. To me, your concern for men is reading as minimizing women's problems, and even as dislike for women. Maybe it comes off that way to other people as well.

Really? How does my concern for men come off as minimizing women's problems or a dislike for women? Because I am willing to point out sometimes that men have the same or similar problems?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Never have I heard a man actually criticize a woman for not being some ideal. I've heard a hell of a lot of women do it, but never actually a man. Not saying it never happens, but if it's so damned common, you'd think there would be some experience somewhere in my past.

Not to your face, maybe. And not decent men. But there are men who do it, and a whole system that encourages it, to include the media.

Maybe when someone tells you you're good enough to fuck but not to date because you aren't a Salma Hayek clone, you'll get it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Reminds me of a letter from this week's Savage Love:

I broke up with a girl who wasn't hot enough for me. I tried my whole life to not be that kind of guy. I treated her carelessly because she wasn't that important to me. I was self-indulgent and rude and disrespectful, and it made her cry. She's perfectly attractive, but not in an obvious way, which is what I want. I don't want to abandon her, because she is a pillar of support that I truly need. She's the first girl I ever fucked, and I'm the first guy she ever dated. She is 28 and I am 24. We have known each other for one year. Is it a bad idea to maintain a relationship with her while I pursue other women? Would it be better to end all contact? What is a man who is pathologically worried about being an asshole to do?

Must Remain Anonymous

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not a paradise, it's just the real world. Were feminists tend to be more concerned with real issues like unequal pay, unequal representation in politics and business, and unequal divisions of labour in the home, rather than who has be more perfect looking.

For the record, looking "right" for the job is a pretty big contribution to unequal pay and representation. You might not follow US politics, but the runup to the 2008 election was pretty much "Hillary Clinton, what a hag!" Unless our female politicians have crossed into Venerable territory, their looks are on the table, far more than male politicians' ever are. As for the corporate setting, check out Corporette. It's a blog about the whole delicate balance. For the most part, Corporette advises women how they might cope and how to fit in, not how to make sweeping changes, but half the battle is getting us up there in the ranks in the first place. The other half is getting us to make the changes once we're there, instead of being too terrified of men to speak our minds.

Working women shouldn't have to achieve equality on men's terms, becoming proto-men while the men don't have to make any changes. Both sides need to be working together on this--yet I so rarely see men willing to change the system. And why should they bother? It works for them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not to your face, maybe. And not decent men. But there are men who do it, and a whole system that encourages it, to include the media.

Maybe when someone tells you you're good enough to fuck but not to date because you aren't a Salma Hayek clone, you'll get it.

Indeed. It pisses me off when my male friends suddenly forget I'm female, and begin judging other women's looks.

However, I've noticed women judge other women's looks far more often and far more harshly, and there are fewer women who keep their comments to themselves, as compared to men. 99% of my anxiety about my looks comes from other women, in particular older ones. I'm too skinny. I don't do my hair enough. I need to wear makeup. I need bigger boobs. I need my eyebrows waxed. My nose is big. I need a manicure, pedicure, etc. etc. etc. and apparently, I need to stop wearing "granny panties" (which are in fact low-rise bikinis, kthx). Oh, and my skin isn't clear enough, and is too pale and I look like a ghost.

I've never had a guy randomly say shit like that to my face, unless you count the little shits who teased me about my acne in middle school. But even then, I've heard all of the above from my mom and sister, and it's much worse when it's coming from your mom than when it's coming from 12 year old brats. Even when you are 12.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow, this conversation really went off track!

Okay, my 2 cents...

I haven't read much Daly, but I'm really interested - she is in my to read pile.

Loved the housework article - my husband is great with equal housework, but he definitely prefers doing the housework that directly benefits him and I can see some of those attitudes underlying his actions. We're conditioned to think that certain things just are womens work and reflect on the wimmins and not on the husbands. Thankfully he still cares and does things like spend the entire day helping me clean for company. :)

The adverts affection women/women need to look a certain way/does this affect women more than men conversation really got me thinking. I understand where CanadianH is coming from - it wasn't that long ago I would've just agreed and ignored the more "radical" feminist views, or the "radical" complete focus on women.

My personal experience (with advertising, media and people I know) really bears out that the pressure on men is nothing compared to the pressure on women. Sure, the pressure to be attractive is there - who hasn't heard of Rogaine? - but the pressure is not tied so tightly to just being a man. I have so many attractive friends who are engaged or just married and pretty much all of them married quite beneath their level of attractiveness. That didn't stop or even slow down the guys in their pursuit of the women and the women didn't consider it a huge issue - all the while obsessing over themselves. Side note - the discrepancy was largest among my fundie friends.

I remember as a high schooler an older guy friend commenting on how he didn't find college girls attractive - high schoolers "worked harder on their appearance..." Translated: High schoolers still have good bodies. He is even older now, still unmarried and still pursuing younger, attractive girls. The number of guy friends I have (and I have a rather unusually large amount of guy friends) who married up or refuse to date/marry anyone equally attractive or "less" attractive is mind blowing.

My husband is the only guy I know who (objectively) did not marry up. His only physical flaw is that he is balding. And he jokes about it - but would he ever consider Rogaine or whatever? No way. His mom bought him some hair-retaining shampoo in high school because his dad was bald by 21 and he was like WTF did you buy me this? It didn't matter.

And I hate myself. I have always hated myself. Yes, being a perfectionist contributes to that, but so does having boyfriends (ugly boyfriends!!!) who approve me when I fit into my "sexy jeans" or talk incessantly about attributes they like or leave me for more attractive girls or who say "yeah, so and so looks okay" and turns out they look like a supermodel - yeah, no pressure.

I don't know anyone who hasn't heard/overheard TONS of offhand or deliberate remarks from their boyfriends or guy friends and fathers that reflect the pressure on women to conform to some standard. Everyone has heard the behind the back remarks made about women who gain weight and are less attractive, women who smell like such and such and are unattractive, women who don't shave often or have unattractive hair or don't wear makeup/wear too much makeup, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Sure, there are guys with eating disorders - but for every one guy there are literally seven women who have an eating disorder.

We don't talk about the appearance issue equally because it does not equally affect men and women.

"Even in advertisements aimed towards children the difference can be seen. For example in a study that looked at Saturday morning toy commercials, it was found that 50% of commercials that were aimed at girls discussed physical attractiveness within the advertisement, while none of the commercials aimed at boys referred to appearance. (1) Many questions then arise as to how these commercials effect women and their body image. " http://womeninads.weebly.com/statistics.html

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Indeed. It pisses me off when my male friends suddenly forget I'm female, and begin judging other women's looks.

Yeah, that blows. Far more often than that happens, though, I get the 'not you' treatment, where dudes (I'm mostly thinking of former friends here) I'm hanging out with start to rip on their girlfriends or say general sexist bullshit and I object and they say, 'we're not talking about you, Shirley, you're cool.' Or male friends (again, I don't really put up with this bullshit anymore) tell me I'm cool/likeable/fun because I'm 'like a guy.'

ETA: As far as I can tell, being cool because I'm 'like a guy' means liking to talk about sex and video games and swear and drink a lot. Certainly not rare qualities by any stretch of the imagination. But it's like, because they like me and it doesn't fit in with their general views on what women are like, they attribute it to me being somehow an unwoman or different or anomalous.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Anonymous
Really? How does my concern for men come off as minimizing women's problems or a dislike for women? Because I am willing to point out sometimes that men have the same or similar problems?

No, because you are racing to point out that sometimes men have the same or similar problems in situations where the problem is overwhelmingly worse for women. Your zeal for championing men in this particular thread where women were talking about their struggles with body image comes off that way.

When you say stuff like:

Women who aren't perfect aren't considered freakish or disfigured either. They may consider themselves that, but other people don't.

In response to a woman who says that she feels disfigured after carrying a child, to me it comes off as dismissive, minimizing, and yes, as dislike. Other people damn sure consider women who have stretch marks and sagging breasts disfigured, which is why the first thing most actresses do after giving birth is get cosmetic surgery. An actor doesn't have to get cosmetic surgery after he has a kid.

You haven't even acknowledged that beauty standards are worse for women than men, and frankly I'm floored if you don't agree with that. Maybe you believe it, but you haven't said it. You posted about what men deserve, but not what women deserve.

You've invalidated and denied other women's experiences, in the example above and here:

Sorry, but whoever taught you that wasn't your friend. You can make people take you seriously, even if you don't spend 30 minutes to an hour to get ready. I've never had trouble with people taking me seriously and it takes me on average 10 minutes to get ready, 30 if I need to take a shower, and I'm fat to boot. My experience, people are less likely to take you seriously if you look like the "ideal", because the ideal, in case you have forgotten, is also inept in anything that doesn't involve cooking or cleaning.

Again, here it sounds like you're scolding someone - as if they aren't trying hard enough.

Maybe you have a different view, and perhaps you haven't had the same problems and experiences as antifundie or emmiedahl, but that doesn't mean that they are wrong about their own lives.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Indeed. It pisses me off when my male friends suddenly forget I'm female, and begin judging other women's looks.

However, I've noticed women judge other women's looks far more often and far more harshly, and there are fewer women who keep their comments to themselves, as compared to men. 99% of my anxiety about my looks comes from other women, in particular older ones. I'm too skinny. I don't do my hair enough. I need to wear makeup. I need bigger boobs. I need my eyebrows waxed. My nose is big. I need a manicure, pedicure, etc. etc. etc. and apparently, I need to stop wearing "granny panties" (which are in fact low-rise bikinis, kthx). Oh, and my skin isn't clear enough, and is too pale and I look like a ghost.

I've never had a guy randomly say shit like that to my face, unless you count the little shits who teased me about my acne in middle school. But even then, I've heard all of the above from my mom and sister, and it's much worse when it's coming from your mom than when it's coming from 12 year old brats. Even when you are 12.

The actual policing of beauty standards very often comes from women as they are the ones who have really absorbed all this ideas of how a woman should look and present herself.

The hostility in enforcing it comes imo mostly from two concious or subconcious reasons.

One is that when another woman doesn't conform to something that cost you some measure of energy, anxiety and selfdoubt, you might get angry because, who does she think she is that she doesn't have to follow the same rules that you do and so you lash out, to show her she isn't better than you.

Another reason is, that women have learnt that to be prettier is to win, sometimes even that this is the only measure we can really win by, so to criticise another woman is to build yourself up.

A more positive reason for enforcement is trying to really be helpful. That life gets a bit easier if you at least somewhat conform to female beauty standards does have groundings in reality and women often bond and befriend each other over beauty tips etc.

So, in short, internalized misogyny packs quite a punch.

And of course women are under a lot more pressure to be impossibly beautiful and are judged much, much harsher for failing.

The pressure for guys has gone up a bit in recent years, that is not a positive, but it is nowhere near what girls experience.

Guys police each other not to be girly and have quite a bit of pressure about being manly enough, but that is just more misogyny.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Anonymous

Apologies for the epic quoting -

In all honesty, my knowledge of the works of older feminists is limited. Not because they aren't important, just that they were in a different stage of the fight than we are now and a lot of the older ideas, arguments, etc. are often too radical for the movement today. Plus there is the fact that some view points are understood by many to be no longer valid, i.e. the idea that M2F transsexuals don't understand oppression because they were born with male privilege.

Daly as I understand, is not so much about equality as women are better than men. A friend probably put the current movement into words best when she said "it's about equality for everyone, not just improving the one."

And yet ever man I have ever spoken too about female beauty has had a considerably less stringent idea of what a beautiful woman looks like.

If you have ever been a human of either gender who has worn or done something because it's in, you have been effected by it. Women are not the only ones who face an idealized image in the media. This is one of the things that bothers me, the belief that things such as body image is a woman's problem.

And that some times men face the same, or very similar issues. I think it's the "men don't have to deal with it" type of statements/beliefs that put a lot of people off feminism.

Plenty of healthy men feel disfigured or freakish. They aren't tall enough, or too tall, or they don't have enough muscles, or they have too many, they are too fat or too thin, etc. Maybe because you have a hard time acknowledging it you haven't really noticed that there is an ideal male form.

Women who aren't perfect aren't considered freakish or disfigured either. They may consider themselves that, but other people don't.

Just like the men who work out too much to be healthy, or starve themselves to be thin, or spend thousands of dollars on penis enlargement pills and gizmos and surgery, and more consider themselves to be freakish or disfigured when the rest of the world doesn't see it.

I am a feminists, I am not a radical feminists. I do not believe we have achieved equality, I do believe there are things women have to deal with that men don't. I, however, am not so wrapped up in the problems of women that I am unwilling to acknowledge or work to improve the issues that both men and women face. Talking about women's problems from a woman's perspective does not put people of feminism, talking about problems that everyone faces to some extent from the "the men facing the issue don't matter" perspective does. It makes it less about the issue at hand and more about bitching about the patriarchy.

I have not pulled the "what about men" card for everything. Only for the issues that both men and women face, when the men are completely ignored. It's because I'm a believer in equality, not psudo-equality where women can be supported in trying to change the issues they have to deal with but men can go screw themselves.

Rarely do I see an "imperfect" man in ads. They are all the same body type, size, face, hair cut, etc. What the ad industry has decided is attractive (and ironically, rarely what I find attractive).

They deserve some talk, some resources, some time at least. They sure don't deserve "why do we have to bring up the men".

As for bitching about the patriarchy, that has done nothing. The changes that have and will happen, happen because people actually do something, make themselves heard, and don't alienate those they are trying to reach.

I don't watch much TV, and I don't read any magazines, but I can still think back and remember ads for me who want to get more muscle, change their hair colour, dress in just the right way. And all of those, the ideal man is clearly demonstrated.

And really, what is this kind of discourse doing? It's taking focus from the actual issue and making it about who has to deal with it. The actual problem is that the media presents a view of what people, male and female, are supposed to look like. Why can't we actually focus on that instead of trying to argue that men don't have those problems?

Where did I say that? I said stop bitching and do something. Even if it's refusing to live the way society wants you to. And yes, alienating the wrong people (namely those who are willing to support and help the cause but don't just want to be stuck in an endless circle of "this is our problem, they should do something about it") is a bad thing.

Never have I heard a man actually criticize a woman for not being some ideal. I've heard a hell of a lot of women do it, but never actually a man. Not saying it never happens, but if it's so damned common, you'd think there would be some experience somewhere in my past.

And you know, forget it. This is why I avoid specific types of feminism. So much lack of consideration from those we expect to have consideration for us.

Wasting your time on petty arguments because someone *gasp* actually cares about the plight of everyone is pretty useless.

I'm not the one getting pissy because someone actually considers "teh menz".

I point out that men do actually experience pressure to look a certain way and people jump down my throat.

It's so fucking annoying when people are so fucking wrapped up in their hatred they can't see the WHOLE FUCKING PROBLEM.

Sorry, but whoever taught you that wasn't your friend. You can make people take you seriously, even if you don't spend 30 minutes to an hour to get ready. I've never had trouble with people taking me seriously and it takes me on average 10 minutes to get ready, 30 if I need to take a shower, and I'm fat to boot. My experience, people are less likely to take you seriously if you look like the "ideal", because the ideal, in case you have forgotten, is also inept in anything that doesn't involve cooking or cleaning.

You are the one who actually had the gall to ask me if I'm actually a feminist, and if I think there is equality between the sexes. I have done nothing to imply either of those things. And it's not just you, it's a life time of people tell me that I can't be a real feminist just because I care that the way things are hurts men too, and want to change that just as much.

Really? How does my concern for men come off as minimizing women's problems or a dislike for women? Because I am willing to point out sometimes that men have the same or similar problems?

Also because you have posted twenty times in this thread and virtually every post is about men and how awful they have it, mostly in regards to living up to beauty standards, for fuck's sake. With a sprinkling of posts telling women that they don't have it any worse than the men do, dismissing their experiences, and talking about how you've never heard a man say bad thing X, but you've heard plenty of women say bad thing X.

If you pulled most of those statements out and asked me if they were made by a self-identified feminist or an MRA, I would guess MRA.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For the record, looking "right" for the job is a pretty big contribution to unequal pay and representation. You might not follow US politics, but the runup to the 2008 election was pretty much "Hillary Clinton, what a hag!" Unless our female politicians have crossed into Venerable territory, their looks are on the table, far more than male politicians' ever are.

I dunno. The vast majority of our presidents, especially in more recent times, have been good looking. An ugly man has much less of a chance of winning the office than a good looking man. This "our president must be good looking" doesn't just apply to women running for office.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, because you are racing to point out that sometimes men have the same or similar problems in situations where the problem is overwhelmingly worse for women. Your zeal for championing men in this particular thread where women were talking about their struggles with body image comes off that way.

When you say stuff like:

In response to a woman who says that she feels disfigured after carrying a child, to me it comes off as dismissive, minimizing, and yes, as dislike. Other people damn sure consider women who have stretch marks and sagging breasts disfigured, which is why the first thing most actresses do after giving birth is get cosmetic surgery. An actor doesn't have to get cosmetic surgery after he has a kid.

You haven't even acknowledged that beauty standards are worse for women than men, and frankly I'm floored if you don't agree with that. Maybe you believe it, but you haven't said it. You posted about what men deserve, but not what women deserve.

You've invalidated and denied other women's experiences, in the example above and here:

Again, here it sounds like you're scolding someone - as if they aren't trying hard enough.

Maybe you have a different view, and perhaps you haven't had the same problems and experiences as antifundie or emmiedahl, but that doesn't mean that they are wrong about their own lives.

To the first bolding: Most people do not consider sagging breasts or stretch marks to be disfiguring. Most people understand that they are what happens when a woman has children and gets older.

To the second: Why would I bother informing people of something they clearly know all ready? Everyone is talking about what women deserve, when an issue affects men why can we not talk about what they also deserve?

To the third: Sorry, but no one is forcing that poster to spend so much time on her looks. She is capable of making the choice to eliminate the things she doesn't like or doesn't think she needs to do. I learned that lesson a long time ago when I realized that claiming I have to do something to please society is letting those who do hold oppressive and unrealistic ideals about women and their bodies win.

What I don't like is when women complain about all they do to look perfect and then blame someone else for their own refuse to make the choice to not do it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I dunno. The vast majority of our presidents, especially in more recent times, have been good looking. An ugly man has much less of a chance of winning the office than a good looking man. This "our president must be good looking" doesn't just apply to women running for office.

It takes a lot less for a man to be considered good looking then it does a women. Men can be handsome while showing their age past 30, 35, 40 etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Apologies for the epic quoting -

...

Also because you have posted twenty times in this thread and virtually every post is about men and how awful they have it, mostly in regards to living up to beauty standards, for fuck's sake. With a sprinkling of posts telling women that they don't have it any worse than the men do, dismissing their experiences, and talking about how you've never heard a man say bad thing X, but you've heard plenty of women say bad thing X.

If you pulled most of those statements out and asked me if they were made by a self-identified feminist or an MRA, I would guess MRA.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It takes a lot less for a man to be considered good looking then it does a women. Men can be handsome while showing their age past 30, 35, 40 etc.

So can women.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To stay OT, I have read Gyn/Ecology :) Not really sure about Daly and have not read her other work on the basis of that, but keep meaning to try again.

I also want to say THANK YOU LISSAR especially for the comments about activism. It is *not* about being nice to people so you don't alienate them.

There are all kinds of activist and everyone is different with different comfort levels. For example, antifascism. No one says "don't be mean about fascists, you might upset them" but they oppose the fascist ideal in different ways. Someone might take a kid aside in danger of getting caught up by the movement and discuss why it is wrong. Someone else might write to the paper and oppose a planned fascist march. Another person again might go on a nice, family friendly demonstration against fascism. All of those are good.

Then you get those comfortable with a more, well, direct approach ;)

But the goal is the same. And one thing which never works, with racists, sexists, fascists etc, is trying really hard not to upset them. They are not listening to you. They don't like you. At least we antifa and the fascists are honest about mutual loathing. A sexist man might be smooth to your face, but he still dislikes and distrusts women, or he would see them as the humans they are.

So what I am trying in a very rambly way to state (apart from listen to Lissar) is in struggle we all play different parts, but the one tactic that never works is "Please, don't get upset, but...". It has a shitty track record against organised oppression.

Fine, some people are letterwriters and some people are more physical, but the former should not berate the latter. Without us, little gets done.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To stay OT, I have read Gyn/Ecology :) Not really sure about Daly and have not read her other work on the basis of that, but keep meaning to try again.

I also want to say THANK YOU LISSAR especially for the comments about activism. It is *not* about being nice to people so you don't alienate them.

There are all kinds of activist and everyone is different with different comfort levels. For example, antifascism. No one says "don't be mean about fascists, you might upset them" but they oppose the fascist ideal in different ways. Someone might take a kid aside in danger of getting caught up by the movement and discuss why it is wrong. Someone else might write to the paper and oppose a planned fascist march. Another person again might go on a nice, family friendly demonstration against fascism. All of those are good.

Then you get those comfortable with a more, well, direct approach ;)

But the goal is the same. And one thing which never works, with racists, sexists, fascists etc, is trying really hard not to upset them. They are not listening to you. They don't like you. At least we antifa and the fascists are honest about mutual loathing. A sexist man might be smooth to your face, but he still dislikes and distrusts women, or he would see them as the humans they are.

So what I am trying in a very rambly way to state (apart from listen to Lissar) is in struggle we all play different parts, but the one tactic that never works is "Please, don't get upset, but...". It has a shitty track record against organised oppression.

Fine, some people are letterwriters and some people are more physical, but the former should not berate the latter. Without us, little gets done.

Yes, I read somewhere that you really need a lot of different approaches, even if only in discussions.

You need angry and agressive arguing, you need logical factbombers and you need friendly appeal to emotuion etc.

Not everyone can be reached by the same method and, sometimes, if someone angry gets in your face over an issue it really is a wake-up call; and later you might be glad that someone nicer is willing to compromise etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But pissing off other antifascists is not going to help the cause.

Are you implying that pissing you off or failing to concede to you is somehow harming feminism as a cause? Or...? What's your meaning here?

Feminism is hardly a united front anyway. See: sex-positive, liberal feminism, radical feminism, anti-porn, pro-porn, anti-trans, pro-trans, conscious pro-woman rejections of feminism like womanism

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So can women.

Women are judged harsher and as for simply ignoring it, there are studies that show that for example women on average earn less if they are overweight, while men earn more up to a certain point.

So you have real world consequences that are more than just feeling crappy for not conforming to beauty standards.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.




×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.