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A question for the younger Feminists


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Guest Anonymous
As for bitching about the patriarchy, that has done nothing. The changes that have and will happen, happen because people actually do something, make themselves heard, and don't alienate those they are trying to reach.

I couldn't disagree with this more. It's the "tone" argument in a nutshell. I guarantee that the women's suffrage movement and the Civil Rights movement alienated the hell out of people. "Be nice and your oppressors will listen to you" is a load of bull.

As for bitching accomplishing nothing, I think that theory and talk and ideas are a crucial part of activism. "Doing something" won't happen if why one should do something never gets hashed out.

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But how often do you see advertisements for ways men can improve their appearance in ways other than getting a close shave or smelling good (or maybe just smelling 'not bad,' as Axe certainly is the opposite of good-smelling)?

I don't watch much TV, and I don't read any magazines, but I can still think back and remember ads for me who want to get more muscle, change their hair colour, dress in just the right way. And all of those, the ideal man is clearly demonstrated.

And really, what is this kind of discourse doing? It's taking focus from the actual issue and making it about who has to deal with it. The actual problem is that the media presents a view of what people, male and female, are supposed to look like. Why can't we actually focus on that instead of trying to argue that men don't have those problems?

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But how often do you see advertisements for ways men can improve their appearance in ways other than getting a close shave or smelling good (or maybe just smelling 'not bad,' as Axe certainly is the opposite of good-smelling)?

Just often enough that some of them get off their butts and try to be presentable!

Until men stop criticising women for not being some pop-culture ideal, I consider them fair game. So! Boys! Unless you are exercising: trousers up and belted, proper shirts, proper shoes! Hair styled in a becoming manner (you can't all pull off the long hair look), face kissable (however your particular partner defines that), and if you must grow a beard, keep it in good nick. Don't smell like sweat, stale farts, and potato chips, but don't drown yourselves in cologne or Axe *shudder*.

If I have to make an effort, so do you!

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I couldn't disagree with this more. It's the "tone" argument in a nutshell. I guarantee that the women's suffrage movement and the Civil Rights movement alienated the hell out of people. "Be nice and your oppressors will listen to you" is a load of bull.

As for bitching accomplishing nothing, I think that theory and talk and ideas are a crucial part of activism. "Doing something" won't happen if why one should do something never gets hashed out.

Where did I say that? I said stop bitching and do something. Even if it's refusing to live the way society wants you to. And yes, alienating the wrong people (namely those who are willing to support and help the cause but don't just want to be stuck in an endless circle of "this is our problem, they should do something about it") is a bad thing.

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Just often enough that some of them get off their butts and try to be presentable!

Until men stop criticising women for not being some pop-culture ideal, I consider them fair game. So! Boys! Unless you are exercising: trousers up and belted, proper shirts, proper shoes! Hair styled in a becoming manner (you can't all pull off the long hair look), face kissable (however your particular partner defines that), and if you must grow a beard, keep it in good nick. Don't smell like sweat, stale farts, and potato chips, but don't drown yourselves in cologne or Axe *shudder*.

If I have to make an effort, so do you!

Never have I heard a man actually criticize a woman for not being some ideal. I've heard a hell of a lot of women do it, but never actually a man. Not saying it never happens, but if it's so damned common, you'd think there would be some experience somewhere in my past.

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If I have to make an effort, so do you!

:clap:

This is entirely true.

While I believe that feminism is primarily a woman's struggle, I don't think it is exclusively a woman's struggle. The patriarchy can harm men as well and we do need 'male allies'. Unless humanity as a whole realizes that different systems of oppression (be it gender, race, sexual orientation, class, X, Y or Z) feed into each other, we will never be free of them. Solidarity is the only answer.

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And you know, forget it. This is why I avoid specific types of feminism. So much lack of consideration from those we expect to have consideration for us.

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Guest Anonymous
Never have I heard a man actually criticize a woman for not being some ideal. I've heard a hell of a lot of women do it, but never actually a man.

I need to move to Canada so fucking bad. Apparently it's a feminist paradise.

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I couldn't disagree with this more. It's the "tone" argument in a nutshell. I guarantee that the women's suffrage movement and the Civil Rights movement alienated the hell out of people. "Be nice and your oppressors will listen to you" is a load of bull.

As for bitching accomplishing nothing, I think that theory and talk and ideas are a crucial part of activism. "Doing something" won't happen if why one should do something never gets hashed out.

:clap: Lissar, I big-puffy-heart you. :romance-inlove:

Emmie, I need to read that book. I read an article like that not too long ago. Before that and reading the first few books of the Outlander series, I had no idea that women weren't always expected to shave their legs, underarms, wear deodorant, etc.

To the "what about the menz!?!?!?" folks, come talk to me when men get asked why they don't wear makeup to work. I hardly ever wear it. I've been asked, at work by my (then-)manager, why I don't.

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I haven't read any Mary Daly, but I did do my first undergrad in Women's Studies. Although, the other posters may be right re: her anti-lgbt stance, it should be taken within the historical context of when she wrote. I think any feminist writings are good, so I'd definitely donate.

Mainly, if a questioning fundie were to pick up Mary's book & read it, the presence of her anti-lgbt stance in her writings, may open the door for that fundie to re-consider feminism as a viable theory, thus this fundie may then explore other writings from liberal feminists, etc.

Also, I think not donating feminist books b/c of their content borders on censorship.

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I need to move to Canada so fucking bad. Apparently it's a feminist paradise.

I've heard men criticize women for not being some ideal. So sorry, Lissar, not so much. :( CanadianHippie, you're lucky. I'm jealous. Granted, they're usually assholes, but even "nice" guys tend to occasionally make the offhand comment.

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Also, I think not donating feminist books b/c of their content borders on censorship.

Well, no one suggested she not donate the books.

I do think Mary Daly could be particularly valuable to fundies, though, because she's primarily a feminist theologian.

ETA: I also feel like men discussing flaws in women and hotness of particular women is primarily not something that happens in mixed company although I've definitely heard dudes criticizing the shit out of particular women and of particular practices like eschewing makeup or not shaving or whatever.

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I need to move to Canada so fucking bad. Apparently it's a feminist paradise.

Not a paradise, it's just the real world. Were feminists tend to be more concerned with real issues like unequal pay, unequal representation in politics and business, and unequal divisions of labour in the home, rather than who has be more perfect looking.

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Not a paradise, it's just the real world. Were feminists tend to be more concerned with real issues like unequal pay, unequal representation in politics and business, and unequal divisions of labour in the home, rather than who has be more perfect looking.

Caring about who has to conform to more stringent beauty ideals does not mean someone does not care about all the issues you just named. Caring about one doesn't preclude the other.

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Guest Anonymous
I haven't read any Mary Daly, but I did do my first undergrad in Women's Studies. Although, the other posters may be right re: her anti-lgbt stance, it should be taken within the historical context of when she wrote. I think any feminist writings are good, so I'd definitely donate.

Mainly, if a questioning fundie were to pick up Mary's book & read it, the presence of her anti-lgbt stance in her writings, may open the door for that fundie to re-consider feminism as a viable theory, thus this fundie may then explore other writings from liberal feminists, etc.

Also, I think not donating feminist books b/c of their content borders on censorship.

It was never a matter of NOT donating. I wanted to get a different perspective. So far the thread is a great read and eye opener for me. And I'll likely re read the whole pile, make new margin notes and then donate.

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Caring about who has to conform to more stringent beauty ideals does not mean someone does not care about all the issues you just named. Caring about one doesn't preclude the other.

Wasting your time on petty arguments because someone *gasp* actually cares about the plight of everyone is pretty useless.

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Wasting your time on petty arguments because someone *gasp* actually cares about the plight of everyone is pretty useless.

Then you can be the first to bow out of the argument, if that's how you feel.

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Guest Anonymous

Wasting your time on petty arguments because someone *gasp* actually cares about the plight of everyone is pretty useless.

I care very much about all of those issues. I'm not wasting my time one jot more than you are, so that's a rock thrown from a glass house. There's precious little I could be doing for the cause after business hours on a Saturday night. I wasn't aware that hanging about the internet in my free time negated my volunteer work, my writing/postings on the subject, and my charitable donations.

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I don't think it's an either/or discussion but an and/and discussion.

As feminists we should care about equal rights/pay/representation AND protest the rampant objectification of women's bodies. One issue does tie into another. The underlying assumption is that women cannot and do not need to be taken seriously on a fundamental level.

I also think we can craft alliances with men AND cultivate an awareness of how sexism hurts women first and foremost but not exclusively.

My feminist husband who is *very* supportive of my feminism and career goals AND who does an equal share (if not MORE) of the housekeeping once was told by a feminist that he could never be a feminist because he is a man. It was quite disparaging and discouraging for him. I could not be the feminist I am today without his practical and moral support. Because it is easier to fight a battle with two, rather than one. There's strength in numbers :)

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I care very much about all of those issues. I'm not wasting my time one jot more than you are, so that's a rock thrown from a glass house. There's precious little I could be doing for the cause after business hours on a Saturday night. I wasn't aware that hanging about the internet in my free time negated my volunteer work, my writing/postings on the subject, and my charitable donations.

I'm not the one getting pissy because someone actually considers "teh menz".

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I'm not the one getting pissy because someone actually considers "teh menz".

No, you're just the one getting pissy because no one will say that men experience equal pressure and hardship when it comes to beauty norms.

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No, you're just the one getting pissy because no one will say that men experience equal pressure and hardship when it comes to beauty norms.

I point out that men do actually experience pressure to look a certain way and people jump down my throat.

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It's so fucking annoying when people are so fucking wrapped up in their hatred they can't see the WHOLE FUCKING PROBLEM.

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Also, the crappy heteronormative beauty ideal often hurts young women before they understand the equal-pay-for-equal work issue, or other "serious" ( :roll: ) feminist issues. Why? Because little girls are brought up in a culture that implicitly judges them based on their adherence to that ideal, that makes them focus their anger, their attention, and their behavior into modifying their physical selves, rather than giving them the freedom to explore their own personality and figure out who they truly are.

The beauty ideal forced upon us by men prevents us from having the time or the energy for other pursuits. And, women aren't always taken seriously unless they are perfectly groomed and manicured.

It takes my husband about 20 mins to get ready in the morning--shower, dress, done. Nobody expects him to have his nails done, to work out regularly, to keep the house clean, etc.

Me? It takes at least 30 mins, and usually closer to an hour, to get ready. That's the shower, shave legs, underarms and bikini area, makeup and wrestle with my hair. That's AFTER I work out, and try to pick out an outfit that is flattering. My husband has never cried because the house was too messy, never tried on half the contents of the closet to see which outfit made him look thinner--I'm not trying to make anybody feel sorry for me, but I don't think my behavior is unusual or unique.

My point? Women aren't "allowed" to talk about the "big stuff" until we've done the above. If I showed up to talk about feminism and had frizzy hair, a unibrow, hairy legs and hadn't showered for a day? Nobody would take me seriously. These are issues about our BODIES, and that's really fucking personal.

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Guest Anonymous
It's so fucking annoying when people are so fucking wrapped up in their hatred they can't see the WHOLE FUCKING PROBLEM.

This is ridiculous. How did you get from people saying that the beauty industry affects women more than men to capital letters and hatred?

I don't hate men and I don't see how anything I've written in this thread suggests that I do.

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