A question for the younger Feminists

[Olivia]

I don't blame my husband so much as a culture in which *I* am the shitty parent if my children can't find matching socks and there are smudges of toddler grime on the walls. DH has no personal reason to care if things are perfect so he chooses sleep.

Yeah, I do find it frustrating that a man is a great cook if he can make pasta, a great husband if he runs the vacuum occasionally, and a great father just for parenting his children. The bar is set much lower for them by society, but we're supposed to do all the above while having a career, staying in shape and looking good. I just refuse to play that game on the housekeeping front, but I imagine it gets a lot tougher with kids. And I think that those societal expectations and pressures have a real cost when it comes to women and their mental health.

[emmiedahl]

ikr? I am not saying this to criticize my husband. He is as liberated as a man can be in this very misogynist world. But I get a little tired of seeing him petted and praised by everyone for helping out. We are both full-time students and I am the main source of income. Why is it so amazing that I cook and he does the dishes? Why is he a saint for taking the baby for a walk in the evening when I care for the baby all day while doing school work and a job? It bugs me because it makes those things seem optional. It is not optional for me and it should not be optional for him.

[Soldier of the One]

Vajazzling. That is all.

Yes, this.

There's a growing perception of the female body as something to be manipulated rather than just something to be beautified. It is no longer good enough to look pretty and slender in a dress, rather, as some of the posters have remarked, we have to look *perfect* - according to a definition that is in stark contrast with our biological realities. Female catwalk models tend to be very androgynous in the least and have body-types that conflict directly with the naturally-occurring body-types of most women. It's a direct inversal of who we are as women. And it's really insidious because we are set up for failure.

The irony is that men actually don't desire these shenanigans. Most men are more than happy with a woman who is body-confident and who 'feels nice'. Most men do not prefer the ultra-skinny catwalk ideal but just want a real, red-blooded woman to love.

It's damn shame that sexism and mysogyny doesn't only hurt the obvious - women. But also men. And the relationships between men and women.

/end of rant.

[emmiedahl]

GREAT book about that ^^^ called The Body Project.

Commercial interests over the past 100 years have convinced women that our bodies are dirty/imperfect and that we need to buy products to make them better. If you have ever worn a thong to prevent panty lines or slapped on some deodorant, you are affected by it.

[Soldier of the One]

GREAT book about that ^^^ called The Body Project.

Commercial interests over the past 100 years have convinced women that our bodies are dirty/imperfect and that we need to buy products to make them better. If you have ever worn a thong to prevent panty lines or slapped on some deodorant, you are affected by it.

Gah, I HATE thongs passionately.

It's true and I mostly agree with this premise, especially when it comes to feminine hygiene products. But another part of me also would like to offer some historical perspective. Women have worn corsets throughout the centuries in an attempt to get that 'perfect hour-glass shape', to their own detriment. Likewise, women have slapped on toxic ointments in attempts to bleach their skin in accordance with ideals of paleness. So, I do think women have always manipulated their bodies because of perceived 'imperfections'.

I do mostly agree, however, and also do feel that the scale of things is far larger now because of both technological advancement and social development. Commercialization and mass media have made the 'ideal' far more ubiquitous.

[CanadianHippie]

GREAT book about that ^^^ called The Body Project.

Commercial interests over the past 100 years have convinced women that our bodies are dirty/imperfect and that we need to buy products to make them better. If you have ever worn a thong to prevent panty lines or slapped on some deodorant, you are affected by it.

If you have ever been a human of either gender who has worn or done something because it's in, you have been effected by it. Women are not the only ones who face an idealized image in the media. This is one of the things that bothers me, the belief that things such as body image is a woman's problem.

[Soldier of the One]

If you have ever been a human of either gender who has worn or done something because it's in, you have been effected by it. Women are not the only ones who face an idealized image in the media. This is one of the things that bothers me, the belief that things such as body image is a woman's problem.

Very true. This is why I believe we feminists have to keep on making the point that feminism is an emancipatory movement for everyone, not just women. Feminism is merely 'the radical notion that women are people'. But men are people too. And without denying the fact that women are mostly on the receiving end of sexism, men are also affected by it. Rigid gender roles are reductionist and harmful for all of us.

[emmiedahl]

The author in the book pointed out that corsets were a fashion. They were not a judgment. No one expected women to be that shape naturally; there was no dirty involved.

Whereas, the hygiene issues are a criticism of your body itself. Only nasty women sweat, menstruate, have earthy-smelling vaginas, etc.

[Shirley MacLaine]

The issues have definitely changed. I think they're a lot subtler now. I'm 35 and a lot of the crap my mom had to put up with is illegal, and/or seen as flat-out weird. (Girls in school could only play half court basketball? We were somehow too delicate for full court? WTF????).

Reading this triggered memory of gym class circa 2003 - we had dodgeball days but the girls were not allowed to play, just sit in the bleachers. I recognized that that was extremely fucked up but instead of doing anything about it I just continued to skip gym and ignore everything to read in a corner when I did show up. Wish I could go back and say something, I wonder if that is still happening.

[CanadianHippie]

Very true. This is why I believe we feminists have to keep on making the point that feminism is an emancipatory movement for everyone, not just women. Feminism is merely 'the radical notion that women are people'. But men are people too. And without denying the fact that women are mostly on the receiving end of sexism, men are also affected by it. Rigid gender roles are reductionist and harmful for all of us.

And that some times men face the same, or very similar issues. I think it's the "men don't have to deal with it" type of statements/beliefs that put a lot of people off feminism.

[Soldier of the One]

The author in the book pointed out that corsets were a fashion. They were not a judgment. No one expected women to be that shape naturally; there was no dirty involved.

Whereas, the hygiene issues are a criticism of your body itself. Only nasty women sweat, menstruate, have earthy-smelling vaginas, etc.

That's a valid point, emmiedahl. And I think there is something particularly problematic with a criticism of the body itself, as you described.

Perhaps we can make a threefold distinction:

1) Beautification: beautifying the body superficially without altering or judging it (wearing a pretty dress, jewelry, light make-up, etc)

2) Manipulation: manipulating the body through external means (i.e. corsets)

3) Mutilation: manipulating the body through surgical intervention which can (and perhaps should) be interpreted as an 'ontological critique of the feminine physique'.

Just bouncing around thoughts.

[emmiedahl]

I agree.

Men have hygiene and style issues as well, but nothing like the ones imposed on women. The difference is so stark that I have a hard time even acknowledging it. The female body is almost always socially unacceptable in some way, even in a normal, healthy state.

Exhibit 1: My mother was an ultra-feminist hippie. But she was always insecure about her breasts. She had a flat-as-an-ironing-board chest. She eventually had modest implants put in because her clothes never fit and people would stare. Her female body, in perfect health and having born/breastfed several children was not good enough.

Exhibit 2: My feminist older stepsister had "mommy makeover" surgery. She is one of those women who doubles her weight when she is pregnant, no matter what she tried. After two children, she had a slight 'apron', a belly fold covered in stretch marks. Her boobs looked like, as she put it, tube socks with a rock in the bottom. This is a normal variation of a post-childbirth body, but she could not bear to see it every day when she got dressed. I consider myself a feminist, but I have considered getting the same surgery and probably would if I had a comfortable income. I feel disfigured.

What healthy man feels disfigured or freakish as a normal part of his lifespan?

[CanadianHippie]

I agree.

Men have hygiene and style issues as well, but nothing like the ones imposed on women. The difference is so stark that I have a hard time even acknowledging it. The female body is almost always socially unacceptable in some way, even in a normal, healthy state.

Exhibit 1: My mother was an ultra-feminist hippie. But she was always insecure about her breasts. She had a flat-as-an-ironing-board chest. She eventually had modest implants put in because her clothes never fit and people would stare. Her female body, in perfect health and having born/breastfed several children was not good enough.

Exhibit 2: My feminist older stepsister had "mommy makeover" surgery. She is one of those women who doubles her weight when she is pregnant, no matter what she tried. After two children, she had a slight 'apron', a belly fold covered in stretch marks. Her boobs looked like, as she put it, tube socks with a rock in the bottom. This is a normal variation of a post-childbirth body, but she could not bear to see it every day when she got dressed. I consider myself a feminist, but I have considered getting the same surgery and probably would if I had a comfortable income. I feel disfigured.

What healthy man feels disfigured or freakish as a normal part of his lifespan?

Plenty of healthy men feel disfigured or freakish. They aren't tall enough, or too tall, or they don't have enough muscles, or they have too many, they are too fat or too thin, etc. Maybe because you have a hard time acknowledging it you haven't really noticed that there is an ideal male form.

[emmiedahl]

They might want to change a few things, but really? They are generally not considered freakish or disfigured. Just imperfect. Women have all that and more. We also are worried about our height, weight, muscle tone, etc AND we need to clean up that bush, shave our legs, lift the boobs to perfectly spherical orbs, keep our private parts smelling like flowers, and more.

[CanadianHippie]

They might want to change a few things, but really? They are generally not considered freakish or disfigured. Just imperfect. Women have all that and more. We also are worried about our height, weight, muscle tone, etc AND we need to clean up that bush, shave our legs, lift the boobs to perfectly spherical orbs, keep our private parts smelling like flowers, and more.

Women who aren't perfect aren't considered freakish or disfigured either. They may consider themselves that, but other people don't.

Just like the men who work out too much to be healthy, or starve themselves to be thin, or spend thousands of dollars on penis enlargement pills and gizmos and surgery, and more consider themselves to be freakish or disfigured when the rest of the world doesn't see it.

[Soldier of the One]

They might want to change a few things, but really? They are generally not considered freakish or disfigured. Just imperfect. Women have all that and more. We also are worried about our height, weight, muscle tone, etc AND we need to clean up that bush, shave our legs, lift the boobs to perfectly spherical orbs, keep our private parts smelling like flowers, and more.

I also think there's an added angst placed on women's bodies regarding aging and procreation. It's almost as if we have to stay in a perpetual state of late-adolescence, as if we are not allowed to acknowledge our postpartum bodies and sexuality.

Yes, men angst over their changing bodies as well, but I don't think it is as drastic or abrupt as women do.

[Guest Anonymous]

And that some times men face the same, or very similar issues. I think it's the "men don't have to deal with it" type of statements/beliefs that put a lot of people off feminism.

CanadianHippie, I am truly not trying to be a jerk to you, but it seems that you pull out the "what about the men?" card whenever people talk about feminism or the challenges that women face.

Are you a feminist? Do you believe that women have achieved equality with men? Do you think there are any issues that women face that men don't have to deal with?

Personally I feel that if talking about women's problems from a woman's perspective puts someone off of feminism, then they probably weren't much of a feminist to start out with.

[Hane]

Plenty of healthy men feel disfigured or freakish. They aren't tall enough, or too tall, or they don't have enough muscles, or they have too many, they are too fat or too thin, etc. Maybe because you have a hard time acknowledging it you haven't really noticed that there is an ideal male form.

Perhaps, but take a look at the ads on TV and in magazines. Compare the number of them focused on "perfecting" women's appearances vs. men's.

I'll agree that men have it as bad as we do when universal male make-up becomes a "thing."

And, Lissar? :clap: :smooch:

[CanadianHippie]

CanadianHippie, I am truly not trying to be a jerk to you, but it seems that you pull out the "what about the men?" card whenever people talk about feminism or the challenges that women face.

Are you a feminist? Do you believe that women have achieved equality with men? Do you think there are any issues that women face that men don't have to deal with?

Personally I feel that if talking about women's problems from a woman's perspective puts someone off of feminism, then they probably weren't much of a feminist to start out with.

I am a feminists, I am not a radical feminists. I do not believe we have achieved equality, I do believe there are things women have to deal with that men don't. I, however, am not so wrapped up in the problems of women that I am unwilling to acknowledge or work to improve the issues that both men and women face. Talking about women's problems from a woman's perspective does not put people of feminism, talking about problems that everyone faces to some extent from the "the men facing the issue don't matter" perspective does. It makes it less about the issue at hand and more about bitching about the patriarchy.

I have not pulled the "what about men" card for everything. Only for the issues that both men and women face, when the men are completely ignored. It's because I'm a believer in equality, not psudo-equality where women can be supported in trying to change the issues they have to deal with but men can go screw themselves.

[CanadianHippie]

Perhaps, but take a look at the ads on TV and in magazines. Compare the number of them focused on "perfecting" women's appearances vs. men's.

I'll agree that men have it as bad as we do when universal male make-up becomes a "thing."

And, Lissar? :clap: :smooch:

Rarely do I see an "imperfect" man in ads. They are all the same body type, size, face, hair cut, etc. What the ad industry has decided is attractive (and ironically, rarely what I find attractive).

[Guest Anonymous]

Rarely do I see an "imperfect" man in ads. They are all the same body type, size, face, hair cut, etc. What the ad industry has decided is attractive (and ironically, rarely what I find attractive).

I gotta say I never notice the man in the ad. Something happens in my brain, perhaps the triggered death of a few cells. But I never see their shapes or their faces. I'm lucky I guess.

[Shirley MacLaine]

But how often do you see advertisements for ways men can improve their appearance in ways other than getting a close shave or smelling good (or maybe just smelling 'not bad,' as Axe certainly is the opposite of good-smelling)?

[Guest Anonymous]

I am a feminists, I am not a radical feminists. I do not believe we have achieved equality, I do believe there are things women have to deal with that men don't. I, however, am not so wrapped up in the problems of women that I am unwilling to acknowledge or work to improve the issues that both men and women face. Talking about women's problems from a woman's perspective does not put people of feminism, talking about problems that everyone faces to some extent from the "the men facing the issue don't matter" perspective does. It makes it less about the issue at hand and more about bitching about the patriarchy.

I have not pulled the "what about men" card for everything. Only for the issues that both men and women face, when the men are completely ignored. It's because I'm a believer in equality, not psudo-equality where women can be supported in trying to change the issues they have to deal with but men can go screw themselves.

The beauty industry doesn't affect men nearly as much as it affects women. The vast majority of money that is spent on beauty products is spent by women, the vast majority of beauty product advertising is directed at women. Doesn't it follow that the vast majority of support in rejecting and deconstructing it should be given to the people who are most affected?

I think that there are a lot of issues where men don't deserve 50% of the time/talk/resources because some problems affect women way more. I don't think that equates to thinking that men should go screw themselves.

As for bitching about the patriarchy, I think that's a good thing. The louder and more often people do it the happier I am.

[CanadianHippie]

The beauty industry doesn't affect men nearly as much as it affects women. The vast majority of money that is spent on beauty products is spent by women, the vast majority of beauty product advertising is directed at women. Doesn't it follow that the vast majority of support in rejecting and deconstructing it should be given to the people who are most affected?

I think that there are a lot of issues where men don't deserve 50% of the time/talk/resources because some problems affect women way more. I don't think that equates to thinking that men should go screw themselves.

As for bitching about the patriarchy, I think that's a good thing. The louder and more often people do it the happier I am.

They deserve some talk, some resources, some time at least. They sure don't deserve "why do we have to bring up the men".

As for bitching about the patriarchy, that has done nothing. The changes that have and will happen, happen because people actually do something, make themselves heard, and don't alienate those they are trying to reach.

[lovefromgirl]

And yet ever man I have ever spoken too about female beauty has had a considerably less stringent idea of what a beautiful woman looks like.

Every man or every boy under 35? They don't seem to grow up until then. The men in my life have managed to appreciate a wide variety of women, including my own 4'11"-no boobs-never been blonde self.