A question for the younger Feminists

[Guest Anonymous]

I was unpacking and purging a pile of books and a lot are older feminist tomes. Most of the overage is going to the Womens Center Library on campus. What I did want to know are you younger women reading Mary Daly at all? I consider myself lucky that I own some signed first editions and I've enjoyed the notes that I've made in those books over the years.

[Shirley MacLaine]

She's pretty out of fashion now because of her views on transgender people but I have read Beyond God the Father & The Church and the Second Sex.

[CanadianHippie]

In all honesty, my knowledge of the works of older feminists is limited. Not because they aren't important, just that they were in a different stage of the fight than we are now and a lot of the older ideas, arguments, etc. are often too radical for the movement today. Plus there is the fact that some view points are understood by many to be no longer valid, i.e. the idea that M2F transsexuals don't understand oppression because they were born with male privilege.

Daly as I understand, is not so much about equality as women are better than men. A friend probably put the current movement into words best when she said "it's about equality for everyone, not just improving the one."

[Guest Anonymous]

In all honesty, my knowledge of the works of older feminists is limited. Not because they aren't important, just that they were in a different stage of the fight than we are now and a lot of the older ideas, arguments, etc. are often too radical for the movement today. Plus there is the fact that some view points are understood by many to be no longer valid, i.e. the idea that M2F transsexuals don't understand oppression because they were born with male privilege.

Daly as I understand, is not so much about equality as women are better than men. A friend probably put the current movement into words best when she said "it's about equality for everyone, not just improving the one."

Thanks for the concise statement, I was attempting to formulate a reply for Shirley, but you did sum it up rather well. The points made by Shirley vis a vis transsexuals is equally valid.

I was a younger woman in a suit competing in business when I first began reading Daly, my thoughts and life experience have evolved. But to a certain extent I still do think women are better than men. I don't deny men equality, but I no longer have to compete with their superiority in the workplace. At the time I was starting out, we had no archetypes to follow for business mode. We even had to dress like men. I could have never worn a short skirt and a pair of CFMs to the office without a shit load of crap (sexual and political) rolling down hill.

I may just give them all a read before I send them off and contribute my last margin notes.

Thanks for the input.

[Shirley MacLaine]

I really think the anti-trans stuff prevents Mary Daly from being taught in universities as much these days. I did have to read Beyond God the Father for a class, but it was a religion class (titled something about sacred space, I can't remember now).

[hoipolloi]

I read Sisterhood is Powerful when it came out in 1970 & loved it. It was transforming for me, as a young feminist. I re-read it every once in a while and it's still good. Of its many excellent papers, one of my favorites is Pat Mainardi's wonderful essay "The Politics of Housework."

Here's a link to this classic piece: http://caringlabor.wordpress.com/2010/0 ... housework/

Enjoy!

[Kelya]

I've read Gyn/Ecology and Beyond God the Father. I read them not for class but because I grew up Catholic and needed to know more about this radical feminist catholic because like, seriously? I just asked my feminist group and about half have read something by her, if only an article, and everyone knows sort of who she is at least.

She's definitely from a previous wave, but I think reading 2nd wave stuff is really important, if only to outline and really see where we've failed in the past. And I really do have to admire someone who openly states that we should just reverse patriarchy and create a matriarchy. Like, you don't hear statements like that anymore, 3rd/post wave feminism is all about equality and inclusivity and I support and agree with that, but like, damn.

[Shirley MacLaine]

And I really do have to admire someone who openly states that we should just reverse patriarchy and create a matriarchy.

Yeah. That shit is bold.

[Hane]

I read Sisterhood is Powerful when it came out in 1970 & loved it. It was transforming for me, as a young feminist. I re-read it every once in a while and it's still good. Of its many excellent papers, one of my favorites is Pat Mainardi's wonderful essay "The Politics of Housework."

Here's a link to this classic piece: http://caringlabor.wordpress.com/2010/0 ... housework/

Enjoy!

Oh, Christ Almighty. I am sitting here in the nail salon trying not to cry. That essay sums up about 95% of what was wrong with each of my two marriages.

How the FUCK could I have been so stupid?

It makes me want to print out copies of that essay and hand it to all the people who ask me whether I ever want to get married again.

And it also makes me want to give Diana the pedicurist a 100% tip.

[hoipolloi]

Oh, Christ Almighty. I am sitting here in the nail salon trying not to cry. That essay sums up about 95% of what was wrong with each of my two marriages.

How the FUCK could I have been so stupid?

It makes me want to print out copies of that essay and hand it to all the people who ask me whether I ever want to get married again.

And it also makes me want to give Diana the pedicurist a 100% tip.

Oh no. :( Didn't mean to make anyone feel bad.

FWIW, I somehow doubt that you're the stupid one. Hopeful & optimistic, maybe, but not stupid.

[wildflower]

I read Sisterhood is Powerful when it came out in 1970 & loved it. It was transforming for me, as a young feminist. I re-read it every once in a while and it's still good. Of its many excellent papers, one of my favorites is Pat Mainardi's wonderful essay "The Politics of Housework."

Here's a link to this classic piece: http://caringlabor.wordpress.com/2010/0 ... housework/

Enjoy!

OMG! I am printing this out and handing it to everyone who has given me crap about my "high standards" when it comes to relationships. No, I don't have high standards, I just refuse to waste my life being someone's SLAVE.

[Eponine]

I really think the anti-trans stuff prevents Mary Daly from being taught in universities as much these days.

Yes, this. I remember reading some excerpts for background and as part of more general stuff on the second wave but I certainly never studied her extensively.

Which reminds me, some of my friends are going to see Judith Butler speak very soon (if they haven't already) and I'm jealous. :x

[antifundie]

Holy Cow, that article is amazing! I don't think that men (even younger men) understand the housework thing AT ALL. And the fact that their mothers/wives are really acting as servants. Whoah.

[deelaem]

We have some amazing young feminists on this forum. Makes 'ol Dee happy. :D

[Stickers]

I haven't read anything by her, I've never even heard her name. But I don't actually read feminist books in the first place so, yeah. I've read blogs though.

[DistantStar]

The issues have definitely changed. I think they're a lot subtler now. I'm 35 and a lot of the crap my mom had to put up with is illegal, and/or seen as flat-out weird. (Girls in school could only play half court basketball? We were somehow too delicate for full court? WTF????) The denial of credit to single women being totally legal boggles my mind and that only went away a few years before I was born.

It's a different world. I suspect a lot of the older books have value as history, but have a lot that just doesn't apply. This is a good thing! Things have improved! Really, they have. Not there yet, of course, but I take things for granted that my grandma wouldn't have dreamed of.

[antifundie]

I'm not a expert on feminism, but I do think a lot of the issues are different or more personal (? I don't know if that's really the right word) but I do think that it's still really, really important to BE a feminist and to fight for equality.

I do consider myself a feminist, but a lot of what I've learned I've gleaned from reading feminist blogs. Are there books, either by third-wave authors, or "classics" that I should read?

[Lainey]

I'm like the guy in that housework article. :oops: My husband does pretty much all the laundry, vacuuming, garbage takeout, and yardwork. I cook when I have the motivation, in theory I usually do the dishes, I try very hard to keep my kitchen counters clean, and when I can't stand the bathroom anymore it's usually me that cleans the toilet and sink. He does the floor and the tub/shower or it'd never get done.

Oh, though I do make sure the cats are fed and watered (if the plants had to rely on me they'd be dead--I can only raise one type of living thing at a time :mrgreen: ), and I seem to be the only one who ever loads, runs, and empties the dishwasher.

In fairness to me, a lot of the stuff I can't do because of my back (like vacuuming). But for a lot of it I'm just lazy. And I don't even work right now. :shock:

[Soldier of the One]

That was a powerful essay indeed, and in many ways, surprisingly contemporary.

But I also agree with DistantStar that the issues have changed. In many ways, things have improved for us of the female persuasion and in other ways, they have worsened. I think the commercial objectification of women has not improved at all and perhaps become even more severe. (For an interesting documentary, see Jean Kilbourne's 'Killing Me Softly' although I suspect you ladies already know about this :)

)

I think there is incredible pressure on modern young women to attain unattainable standards of beauty and that this reveals a whole 'new' side of sexism. Sure, there have always been beauty standards that women are held to but now they seem more rigorous and unrealistic than ever.

In any case, there's still a lot of work to be done... :(

[Olivia]

While feminism is still very relevant to my life, her type of feminism doesn't that appealing to me, though admittedly, I haven't actually read her books, so my knowledge is shallow. I believe in equality -- I want a good life and equal respect for all.

I agree with PPs that have said we're just in a different place these days. I earn the same as my male peers, and I don't feel discriminated towards in the workplace at this point in my life. I've dealt with sexual harassment, of the insidious type and of the forthright "Let me touch your tits" type (I much prefer the latter). But generally, it's the social norms that trouble me; it's little things that I feel undercut women and impede our success far more often at this point. I'm not worried that my little girl will feel she can't become the President or a doctor or a fighter pilot. I'm worried about the more subtle messages our society sends to girls and women.

And that article -- the Pat Mainardi one -- is just bizarre to me (and is it just me, or is the writing terribly bad?). My husband doesn't like doing housework, true, any more than I do. I have found it troubling that people assume the housework is automatically my responsibility (and that it's good of him to "help" me, or that it's my fault the house is dirty, or that I should rethink buying a larger home because do I want to clean all those bathrooms?). But he'd never say any such bloody thing to me. We split the housework and the cooking 50/50, and when he stopped pulling his fair share, we switched over to only working around the house simultaneously. I wasn't going to clean the house while he watched TV. Aaand now we have a cleaning service, which works just peachy for both of us, since both of us would rather spend our time on something more intellectually satisfying. It's just hard for me to understand how this can be such a big issue if the man you marry isn't an asshole.

Now, I do know - and work with - plenty of men who hold fast to the "women's work" concept, because of the obvious benefits to them. But they are assholes.

[Hane]

hoipolloi, it sure isn't YOU that made me feel bad--it's the ol' male entitlement combined with Italian-American woman guilt about the primacy of housekeeping. I grew up in a culture in which immaculate housekeepers were seen as "better" than lesser mortals. Ex-Mr.-Hane #1 was always too delicate a little flower to move his @$$ after a long hard day behind a desk "working" for his father; Ex-Mr.-Hane #2 would only agree to housework on his own terms--as in letting the dishes pile up in the sink and on the counters until there were "enough" to make filling the dishwasher worthwhile. He also refused to chip in for a part-time housecleaner (while I was working two jobs to his one) because he "couldn't see any benefit to him," and inserted the excuse that he'd only agree to it if at least one of us were home while the housecleaner were there. Making it essentially impossible.

And, Lainey? GOOD FOR YOU for not buying into the housekeeping guilt! My daughter, Goddess bless 'er, simply told her husband, "Pick up your crap and put it away--the cleaning service is coming tomorrow!"

[Hane]

I think there is incredible pressure on modern young women to attain unattainable standards of beauty and that this reveals a whole 'new' side of sexism. Sure, there have always been beauty standards that women are held to but now they seem more rigorous and unrealistic than ever.

(

So true. A generation or two ago, all you had to be was thin and pretty and maybe have average-sized boobs. Nowadays, you have to look perfect NAKED and be "toned" and completely sag- and wrinkle-free. I read crap about the popularity of pubic depilation or pubic hair-coloring--and freaking ANAL BLEACHING, for crying out loud!--and am glad I have opted out of hopping in the sack with anybody.

[CanadianHippie]

So true. A generation or two ago, all you had to be was thin and pretty and maybe have average-sized boobs. Nowadays, you have to look perfect NAKED and be "toned" and completely sag- and wrinkle-free. I read crap about the popularity of pubic depilation or pubic hair-coloring--and freaking ANAL BLEACHING, for crying out loud!--and am glad I have opted out of hopping in the sack with anybody.

And yet ever man I have ever spoken too about female beauty has had a considerably less stringent idea of what a beautiful woman looks like.

[Kitty]

So true. A generation or two ago, all you had to be was thin and pretty and maybe have average-sized boobs. Nowadays, you have to look perfect NAKED and be "toned" and completely sag- and wrinkle-free. I read crap about the popularity of pubic depilation or pubic hair-coloring--and freaking ANAL BLEACHING, for crying out loud!--and am glad I have opted out of hopping in the sack with anybody.

Vajazzling. That is all.

[emmiedahl]

I think women have embraced their sexuality as a part of women's liberation, but that this has been turned on us. Our sexuality is not ours, but rather a public commodity.

About the housework article: powerful stuff. Housework is a huge issue in my home--more an issue for me than my husband. He helps where he can between school and other commitments, but ultimately I am the one who stays up until 4 AM cleaning when we are going to have houseguests. I don't blame my husband so much as a culture in which *I* am the shitty parent if my children can't find matching socks and there are smudges of toddler grime on the walls. DH has no personal reason to care if things are perfect so he chooses sleep.

We share childcare 50/50, although I am still the organizer. I guess one of us has to be "in charge" but it takes a lot of mental space. I just sent my husband to the ER with our youngest for a freakish and worrisome allergic reaction. I had to write down what he has eaten today and such, because I am the one who arranges it and knows it. I am sure at least one ER doctor or nurse will ask if he is a single parent; if there is a mother, why is she not the one spending the evening at the hospital.

I think it is important to advocate for myself in the home, but I have a hard time because I don't want to blame dh for things that society puts on me. Right now, he does what he can, and I do the rest, which means I must be a superhuman ball of energy/adrenaline/anxiety. It's not like he sits on the couch watching football while I work, but he will be doing one thing while I will be doing eighteen.