Why are Doug and Bill at fault?

[msHailey]

Thank you all, very informative! I've been reading through you're posts this morning and I definitely see where everyone's coming from - makes sense :)

I've never knowingly known anybody IRL who lives the way the fundie's live so all I know about them and the people who join and the people who run it comes from mostly here, googling and the Duggars. So I'm the first to admit that I'm not an expert on the lifestyle or how it affects others - thank you for taking the time to explain!

also thank you for playing along with the apple metaphor, I know it's weak because apples are food, but it's the best I could think of to illustrate my question - I'm not terribly creative

[LilMissMetaphor]

The West has become a culture of blame and abnegation of personal responsibility, which is why if we're too dumb to hold a hot coffee without spilling, we think there's nothing wrong with accusing TEH STATE of making the coffee too hot.

[JesusFightClub]

The West has become a culture of blame and abnegation of personal responsibility, which is why if we're too dumb to hold a hot coffee without spilling, we think there's nothing wrong with accusing TEH STATE of making the coffee too hot.

Who did that?

[margiebargie]

I think that your analogy is imcomplete. Here is why

McDonald's is held to be partially to blame for people's obsesity. That is why some have pushed the company to offer a few better kid alternatives to their high caloric fare. The media has been pretty good about informing us how unhealthy fast food is. In some communities, they are pressuring fast food restaurants to not offer toys with kids' meals.

The main religion of our nation is Christianity. Movies sell the message that people should just trust their instincts and believe. Think about it, not many movies favorably depict a person who wants to think things through and look at life skeptically. When the movies depict a skeptic in a positive manner, it is usually because the skeptic is going to make a jump of faith at the end of the movie. Our presidents are almost always Christian. Many of our holidays are Christian based.

So imagine the apple purchaser has been taught his or her entire life that he should just believe. The apple seller doesn't just sell fruit but also sells the idea that this type of apple will make the buyer a better person. Perhaps the buyer is from an abused, unstable home. He or she isn't stupid but simply very vulnerable. Their culture praises apple eaters. They have been taught to believe that eating apples will help them avoid death(heaven) and not eating apples will lead to a life of horrible pain(Hell) Unlike with McDonald's, no one is saying, "Eating a diet of just apples is unhealthy." When the buyer purchases the apples, he meets an entire community of people who eat the same type of apples. Little by little, they convince(guilt) the buyer into using less other food substances and just consuming apples.

Yes, the buyer and the seller are both at fault. But if the seller knows that he is lying about his product, he is more at fault and more responsible. Also, the seller is consciously bringing in more and more people to the extreme lifestyle.

A better analogy would be the way cigarettes were sold to Americans in the thirties or is being sold in some poor countries now.

In our society, people are trained to be gullible, especially when it comes to matters of religion. All my life, I've wanted to make a lot of money without going to much effort. My only options seem to be a life of crime, or starting my own "ministry". There's a lot of risk with the "life of crime" option so that one's out. But starting my own mininstry - Wow! Gullible people forking over their money. No accountability. Very little effort. No taxes. It's a dream come true!

The ministry option sounds great, doesn't it? You know why I don't do it? My conscience won't allow me peddle bullshit to gullible people.

[Bella99]

The West has become a culture of blame and abnegation of personal responsibility, which is why if we're too dumb to hold a hot coffee without spilling, we think there's nothing wrong with accusing TEH STATE of making the coffee too hot.

I would argue that in America personal responsibility is almost deified, to the point where someone who is falling on difficult times is blamed for it.

[justlurking]

Your apple seller analogy is a bit faulty. First of all, you can't compare the amount of influence that a "spiritual" leader, such as Doug Phillips, has to an apple seller. Doug's role as a pastor puts him in a position of incredible influence and authority over people in a way that no single apple seller could ever hope to achieve. People are naturally inclined to believe in the things that Doug tells them because he is seen as an authority figure. If he is providing misinformation that causes other people to be harmed, then he needs to be held liable for his actions.

If you, as an unsuspecting customer, purchased one seller's apples because of faulty information they told you, and then became incredibly sick from consuming that product, you'd have every right to sue that seller for damages and the seller would be held liable for their role in the matter.

Doug Phillips's position allows him to sell many rotten apples to many unsuspecting individuals who truly think he is an "intellectual" (albeit a bit naive one). We now have learned that Doug doesn't even eat his own apples, yet he continues to purposely and misleadingly sell his product to others which continues to cause others to become ill.

When the FDA learns that there are food products out on the market that cause harm/illness to others they shut down production of that company--they don't blame the consumer for purchasing it. Doug Phillips and his production of patriarchal bullshit needs to be shut down before it causes any more harm to any more unsuspecting individuals. That's why he gets most of the blame.

[MamaJunebug]

OP, my quick reply - without reading any others - is this: Personally, I blame them because they personally are misusing the word of God and the name of Jesus and twisting Christianity beyond all recognition -- and they use their own faces to do so.

Plus, for investigators who land here, it is easier to describe a cult by attaching a face to it, in early discussion. Later -- often not much later, actually pretty soon thereafter -- we get to the points of argument and discuss those.

And also, for many investigators, it is the face of a cult that is the selling point. (Reference the Duggar family phenomenon.) To question the Leader is to question the system.

[DeZone]

De-Lurking to post. Hi!

I think the disconnect is when a speaker / public figure proclaims one lifestyle as the ideal, and personally lives another. I think Knight explored this in some of his posts - Doug preaches one gospel to his followers, and seems personally to live another. Call this hypocrisy or a sort of naive, misguided idealism - when either attribute is exhibited by a public figure, said figure is deserving of the public's censorship and correction.

Regarding the "followers'" responsibility - I believe there are many ways to proclaim the Christian faith, and emphasizing "fringe" elements of the gospel - i.e. "patriarchy" - above the core messages of grace, salvation and selflessness always causes trouble. People are quick to latch on to a faith that elevates them above their peers, by merit of their zeal and conformity.

Christianity says - "All our righteousness is filthy rags". Contrast this simple faith with trumpeted proclamations of "world-dominion" and "cultural transformation" (...all of which can purchased in our catalog!) and you've got a recipe for all kinds of posturing ugliness.

[LilMissMetaphor]

I would argue that in America personal responsibility is almost deified, to the point where someone who is falling on difficult times is blamed for it.

Interesting. Well (as a non-American, granted), I've always thought that in the US the individual has been prized over the group. Making your own American dream, pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, that sort of thing. So perhaps the pendulum is swinging back in that direction?

[Bookworm]

I like what CynicMom said. Also, if you check out Brainsample's undermuchgrace blog there is a TON of information about how brainwashing works, how it can be done at one conference style event, and exactly how some of the ATI/VF-type people are brainwashing people.

Also, while I do blame people for getting sucked into stupid ideologies and am currently dealing with a great deal of anger at my own parents for that, I blame the teachers even more because so many of them HAVE been confronted with their lies, hypocrisy, the damage they do, the heartbreak they are causing, and THEY HAVE NOT CHANGED OR APOLOGIZED. That is what makes me blame people like Bill and Doug and Piper and Botkin and Doug Wilson and many more. They are disgusting and dangerous people who do not care about the damage they do. To some extent they do believe their own lies and brainwashing, but that is willful ignorance and reprehensible.

[LilMissMetaphor]

Who did that?

Most famously, Stella Liebeck (among others).

[CynicMom]

I don't think the Stella Liebeck example proves what you think it proves. She is always held up as an example of someone who made a frivolous lawsuit to further her own ends, despite McDonalds insistence on serving coffee it new was causing burns (much hotter than normal coffee and any of its competitors) and did nothing. Mrs. Liebeck suffered 3rd degree burns and underwent multiple skin grafts. And the victim is always the one blamed! The example really shows how America's do-it-yourself culture can easily morph into a blame-the-victim mentality. After all, if everyone can pull themselves up by their own bootstraps, then those who don't have only themselves to blame! To suggest that they have something other than themselves to blame suggests that the whole American dream is faulty.

[LilMissMetaphor]

I don't think the Stella Liebeck example proves what you think it proves. She is always held up as an example of someone who made a frivolous lawsuit to further her own ends, despite McDonalds insistence on serving coffee it new was causing burns (much hotter than normal coffee and any of its competitors) and did nothing. Mrs. Liebeck suffered 3rd degree burns and underwent multiple skin grafts. And the victim is always the one blamed! The example really shows how America's do-it-yourself culture can easily morph into a blame-the-victim mentality. After all, if everyone can pull themselves up by their own bootstraps, then those who don't have only themselves to blame! To suggest that they have something other than themselves to blame suggests that the whole American dream is faulty.

If you google her a bit I think you'll see the woman had plenty of supporters. There was a huge amount of controversy with that case: I don't think the end result was "blame the victim" at all. Anyway, my point was not to attack the individual herself or say it was her fault she got burned. My point was that cases like these tend to engender an attitude of: "why not me, why can't I get millions of $$$ from Big Bad Company Business because I suffered too, where's MY payout!" to the point where it becomes part of the culture.

[Librul]

Why?

Because religious leaders can and should be held to a higher standard of ethical behavior than apple salespeople. Religious leaders have enormous influence over their congregants and potential congregants. With that influence SHOULD come a high degree of responsibility, transparent ethical behavior, honesty and personal and corporate integrity.

Do all priests, deacons, pastors and religious leaders behave in the highest standards? No...but we expect them to and the fallout is tragic and dangerous when they don't.

The fact that Knighty in Tighty Whiteys has essentially told us that Botkins and Dougie do not live the life they are shilling to their flock points to their absolute moral failure.

[jericho]

I don't fault the victims. But maybe that's just me.

What about personal responsibility? Some victims SHOULD be held responsible. Responsible for not looking into facts, accepting things blindly, and following something without any discernment. These are all faults of the victim. I think some people are so afraid of offending the victim that they refuse to give any blame to them.

[desertvixen]

Not all apple sellers stay in the market place and wait to be approached by customers. Many of them coat their apples in candy and take them to schools, public parks and fairs and give them to children who are unable to discern the difference between the apple seller and the ice cream van. And those sellers lure the kids into Sunday Schools and camps where they offer more sweet treats, along with stories of hell and eternal damnation. And by the time the kid is old enough to start to feel sickened by the excess sugar and frightened by the stories, they have already given up the other clubs and friends they used to have, and their developing powers of reasoning have already been warped by the storyteller.

Other Bad Apple Sellers go to the homeless, the sick, the poor and wrap their magotty apples up in whatever would appeal to that demographic.

Not only that, but the apple sellers also bitch if an orange seller (insert other religion/POV here for Christianity) wants to have access like they have.

[MerryHappy]

What about personal responsibility? Some victims SHOULD be held responsible. Responsible for not looking into facts, accepting things blindly, and following something without any discernment. These are all faults of the victim. I think some people are so afraid of offending the victim that they refuse to give any blame to them.

Should we?

I was twelve-ish at the time my parents got involved with ATIA.

I was fourteen when my father attempted to throw my brother through a wall to break him of rebellion. You know, for actually wanting a real education instead of Wisdom Booklets.

I was fifteen when I was told that because of my rebellious and hardened spirit I was destined for a life of a prostitute, walking the streets unwed, getting pregnant then dying of AIDS one day. Yes, that hedge of protection is what my parents used to keep me in line...based off the teachings of Gothard.

I could go on.

I should take responsibility for believing those things that were taught to us under the threat of very real punishment?

I believed it because I was offered nothing else. I was not allowed to pursue anything else under penalty of physical, emotional and mental abuse.

I am a survivor of the horrible world that is ATIA. Not a victim but you may call me one and blame me for whatever imagined offense we have committed if it makes you feel better.

You wouldn't be the first and you sure won't be the last.

[desertvixen]

On the subject of personal responsibility, I think America leans towards the "Why not just do X" mode of personal responsibility, with a side dish of the perception that while you are scraping by and Doing the Right Thing, there is some other person/group Not Doing the Right Thing and getting away with more than you. It's easier to focus people's angers on the other group, rather than looking at the system and wondering if we can't do something to the system to make the Right Thing not such a pain in the ass.

[jericho]

Should we?

I was twelve-ish at the time my parents got involved with ATIA.

I was fourteen when my father attempted to throw my brother through a wall to break him of rebellion. You know, for actually wanting a real education instead of Wisdom Booklets.

I was fifteen when I was told that because of my rebellious and hardened spirit I was destined for a life of a prostitute, walking the streets unwed, getting pregnant then dying of AIDS one day. Yes, that hedge of protection is what my parents used to keep me in line...based off the teachings of Gothard.

I could go on.

I should take responsibility for believing those things that were taught to us under the threat of very real punishment?

I believed it because I was offered nothing else. I was not allowed to pursue anything else under penalty of physical, emotional and mental abuse.

I am a survivor of the horrible world that is ATIA. Not a victim but you may call me one and blame me for whatever imagined offense we have committed if it makes you feel better.

You wouldn't be the first and you sure won't be the last.

Notice I said "SOME". I would certainly not hold children or any family member who had no choice in the matter, as being responsible. They are truly the innocent victims.

[thetabmeister]

Should we?

I was twelve-ish at the time my parents got involved with ATIA.

I was fourteen when my father attempted to throw my brother through a wall to break him of rebellion. You know, for actually wanting a real education instead of Wisdom Booklets.

I was fifteen when I was told that because of my rebellious and hardened spirit I was destined for a life of a prostitute, walking the streets unwed, getting pregnant then dying of AIDS one day. Yes, that hedge of protection is what my parents used to keep me in line...based off the teachings of Gothard.

I could go on.

I should take responsibility for believing those things that were taught to us under the threat of very real punishment?

I believed it because I was offered nothing else. I was not allowed to pursue anything else under penalty of physical, emotional and mental abuse.

I am a survivor of the horrible world that is ATIA. Not a victim but you may call me one and blame me for whatever imagined offense we have committed if it makes you feel better.

You wouldn't be the first and you sure won't be the last.

MerryHappy, I am sorry that my choice of the word victim offended you; that really was not my intent. I do like the term "survivor" much better. When writing my posts on this thread, I had in mind mainly the children of parents who have walked into these cults eyes wide open. Children that were raised in the system of fundamentalism.

I am a survivor of an emotionally abusive, extremely dictatorial childhood, too, though not exactly ATI/IBLP affiliated. There are many shades of crazy, though. I too heard the speeches about being good for nothing and a loser, having no friends and its being my fault (I was homeschooled and forbidden to mingle socially), having a constant bad attitude (hello, depression?!), ruining my parents' lives (never heard exactly how I did it, but hey), and that if I was so ungrateful for them taking all the time and effort to home school me (read: I said NOTHING about any form of ingratitude, combined with the fact that by that time, 10th grade, I was completely educating myself with whatever books my mom could afford), that they would just put me in public school. I made the mistake of saying, "Yes!! PLEASE!!" :roll:

Anyway, random rabbit trail aside, I think my final stance on this subject is that yes, people should know what they are doing, what they're getting into, and why or why not it is a valid belief system to subscribe to. I think that many of the people taken in by ATI a couple decades ago were weakminded people who were looking for strength from outside sources but lacked true character and grit inside to find the best way for their own lives and follow it. It is easy to just follow a leader. Doesn't make it right. I also think that the leaders are at fault, at the very basic level, for peddling a system and lifestyle that they do not actually adhere to themselves. My number one objection to anyone swallowing anything Bill Gothard has to say on family life is, he has no family! At least, no legitimate children... :roll: and no wife...WHY?! do people listen to him? So I do hold both leaders and followers accountable to a degree.

But the majority of my sympathy goes toward the children who have been born and raised in this lifestyle. They really haven't known any other way and due to the extreme brainwashing and sheltering, they are ill equipped to discern the errors of their ways or understand them fully, if they do feel a twinge of uncertainty. My parents allowed me to read books, mostly classics and historical fiction, but it was still enough to start the seeds of liberty and "rebellion" as they call it in my heart. I knew there was a better way to live and I lived each day from about 10th grade on until the day I could achieve that goal. Since moving out 6 years ago I have been on the road to discovering my true self and completely re-working my belief system based on what I now think is truth, not the lies I was fed for years.

So yes, I am a survivor, not a victim. :)

[Letgo]

Many of those seeking Christian support groups such as ATI and VF are very sincere. I think that some believe if the organization is Christian then it must be fine. What happens if a family looks into ATI and asks questions? Could they be rejected because of it? I know a homeschooling family (and did an excellent job, by the way) who did look into it but decided against it because there were too many aspects that were un-Biblical. This family rejected ATI on their own, but I wonder how the ATI people would react to questioning. Being rejected by a 'Christian' group might be devastating to some people. They may believe that to say no is Satan-inspired. It has to be really tough to stand up to a 'wonderful Christian' group and not go with their teachings.

[JesusFightClub]

Most famously, Stella Liebeck (among others).

How did Stella Liebeck blame "TEH STATE"?

She did blame McDonalds for the severe injuries she suffered, and they were found to be at fault.

[luckylibrarian]

Why should Doug and Bill be blamed for the actions of their followers?

First, I think you're setting up a bit of a false dichotomy. It's not like we have to assign blame to one party and absolve the other party. Both parties can be equally responsible or having varying degrees of responsibility. I'd argue that the children (or adult women raised from birth in this belief system) bear no responsibility. The men who abuse their wives and children bear some responsibility because they should see the suffering that their wives and children endure and feel some compassion. Doug and Bill bear some or most of the responsibility because they manipulate people and control them using fear - fear of Hell, fear of the outside world, fear of their peers.

The apple isn't a good comparison. I'll give you one that is: Why should Charles Manson be held responsible for the actions of his followers?

The legal system has answered the question. The jury determined that even though Manson did not hold the knife and wasn't even present for the Tate-LaBianca murders, he was still responsible because of the way he manipulated his followers and ruled them with fear. Doug and Bill may not be homicidal mass killers, but they use the same tactics of manipulation through fear that Manson uses. Both VF/ATI and Charles Manson also promised an ideal world that would be achieved through the obedience of their followers. It's also important to note that in the Manson case, both the leader and the followers were held responsible.

Most FJians hold the followers responsible. If we didn't, we wouldn't snark on their blogs or call them out when they advocate the Pearls' methods. No one has suggested that Lydia Schatz's parents aren't at fault for killing her, What most people here want is for Phillips, Gothard, and the Pearls to be held responsible for their role in this abuse.

[thetabmeister]

Why should Doug and Bill be blamed for the actions of their followers?

First, I think you're setting up a bit of a false dichotomy. It's not like we have to assign blame to one party and absolve the other party. Both parties can be equally responsible or having varying degrees of responsibility. I'd argue that the children (or adult women raised from birth in this belief system) bear no responsibility. The men who abuse their wives and children bear some responsibility because they should see the suffering that their wives and children endure and feel some compassion. Doug and Bill bear some or most of the responsibility because they manipulate people and control them using fear - fear of Hell, fear of the outside world, fear of their peers.

The apple isn't a good comparison. I'll give you one that is: Why should Charles Manson be held responsible for the actions of his followers?

The legal system has answered the question. The jury determined that even though Manson did not hold the knife and wasn't even present for the Tate-LaBianca murders, he was still responsible because of the way he manipulated his followers and ruled them with fear. Doug and Bill may not be homicidal mass killers, but they use the same tactics of manipulation through fear that Manson uses. Both VF/ATI and Charles Manson also promised an ideal world that would be achieved through the obedience of their followers.

Good post, and one that can be applied as well to why I think that Mike and Debi Pearl should be held accountable for the deaths that have occurred from their followers acting on the principles of To Train Up a Child.

[luckylibrarian]

Thetabmeister, you beat me to it, but I just went back and edited to point that out. :)