Jump to content
IGNORED

Why are Doug and Bill at fault?


msHailey

Recommended Posts

So, I've been reading through the Knight thread and all the Doug and Knight bashing has raised a question for me. Why, when a family suffers because of patriarchy, vision forum, ATI or whatever, the overall perception of many of the people here is that it's more the leaders and founders of those ideologies fault than it is the families themselves? I just don't understand how, for example, Doug can be the one so vehemently hated, ridiculed, and blamed, when it's the family who chose to follow him? Why aren't they ridiculed for being dumb enough to follow him in the first place? Like, yes he's an idiot, but you're the idiot that followed that idiot – doesn't that make you an even bigger idiot?

I'm a metaphor person so humor me and allow me to illustrate:

Say you walk into a marketplace and there are ten vendors, each trying to sell you an apple. Obviously, you get to choose what apple you buy and obviously every seller wants you to buy their apple. They are going to do their best to sell it to you. They're not going to tell you if its bruised, there's a worm inside or if it's rotten at the core or if it has the potential to poison you. It's up to you to cut the apple open. To decide if this is an apple that will nourish you or kill you. It's up to you to look past what the seller is pushing, to look deeper. That doesn't mean it's right for them to sell the apple in the first place but at the end of the day they didn't buy it for you, they didn't shove it in you're mouth or cut it up and feed it to your kids – you bought it, you willingly ate it.

So, where do you get off blaming the seller? How is it their fault, more than your own. You are the one who didn't cut it open. If you chose to go in blind, buy the apple and gobble it up without really knowing or researching, just trusting the seller, isn't the resulting sickness your own fault?

I'm not trying to absolve them of any responsibility. It would be ideal if no one sold bullshit, but is it really their fault that you got duped? I think that the majority of the “blame†lies with the buyer, and I've noticed that most of the people here vehemently disagree. Why? I am really, truly interested in knowing why. I am not trying to start anything or point fingers. I feel like I'm missing something that everyone else here gets about it that I don't. Something that causes them to put more blame on “the seller†than on “the buyer.â€

Isn't that tantamount to someone blaming McDonalds for their obesity?

To anyone whose left the Fundy world, its all open arms here at Free Jinger and whatnot – there's no snarking on them at all. (I'm not implying that we should snark on them, I'm just using this as an example to contrast the heavy snarking on fundy leaders, also not saying that we shouldn't snark - just wondering how who is being snarked on is chosen)

Can anyone whose left that lifestyle explain to me why you hate Doug or Bill Gothard, and think they ruined your lives, when in reality it was you who chose the lifestyle, lived it out how you interpreted it and thus ruined your own life?

Please please please don't take this as a pointing fingers thing, or judgement thing. This isn't coming from a negative place. I honestly do not understand and ask that you all enlighten me.

Thanks

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 59
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Gonna take a shot in the dark here because my family was never specifically ATI/VF involved, but I know some who were. A HUGE problem to me seems to be the lies that are told in the selling of said product, or apple if you will. Like, you can cut open the apple and see no worms because they're invisible. Something like that. Knight's thread demonstrated just how far off from following their own teachings Doug and some other VF leaders are. They're selling a LIE. How is a person supposed to know they're being lied to? When they see what they think is proof of this system working, and all it is is hypocrisy carefully crafted in order to keep the lie going?

I don't fault the victims. But maybe that's just me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not to mention, even though there are tons of followers, all the individual families end up being pretty isolated, and when they're together they all tout the same party line and quote the same mantras so no one even suspects that the system might not be working for others. They focus so much on the external that they do look perfect to each other, even though they're messed up. Not sure if these opinions are the answers you're looking for...meh...oh well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I totally get your question--definitely something I've been thinking about as well. I do get that unlike an apple, there's not as much you fan do to test a religious docterine before you buy into it--and there isn't any regulation at all.

But then why do we blame Lina for buying the Messianic line and TT's story? Or some of the others like that?

If it wasn't already painfully obvious, I'm not very good at "getting" people--I'll be interested in the answers to this thread.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think it's exactly the same as the analogy about the apple sellers.

I think that Doug and Bill believe that they're selling a wholesome product, even if they don't follow the lifestyle they're preaching themselves. If an apple seller sells me an apple and I get home and it's rotten, I chuck it in the worm bin regardless of whether or not the seller is an honest man who believes in what he's selling.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I mostly agree with you. I cannot for the life of me understand why people choose to subscribe to these ideas or why they would think that any mortal has all the answers. VF and ATI seem so calculated and phony to me that I can't imagine how it's possible that more than a few people go for it.

But I think many of the people who buy into VF or ATI feel lost and afraid. We all feel lost and afraid sometimes, of course, but I think these people lack other resources to cope with their problems. So they turn to fundamentalist religion, which tells them that they can turn their lives around and be saved for eternity if only they do X, Y, and Z. Finally, some answers! Except that the answers mostly suck, and by the time VF and ATI sheep figure that out, if they ever do, it's too late.

People blame Doug and Bill because they are hypocritical charlatans who prey on people's fears. But their followers are equally responsible--when you invest so much of your time and money in anything, especially when you drag your family into it, you should go into it with your eyes open, not just blindly trust that it's the only way to be godly, or saved, or have kids who don't become drug addicts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's easy: I blame the patriarchy.

Seriously, though, we can criticize the sellers of snake oil for their deception, and we can criticize the buyers of snake oil for their gullibility at the same time. Well, almost the same time. You sort of have to alternate.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Anonymous

If its only an apple, thats all that is lost.

If it is a life lost to the patriarchy, and thats what does happen, ya just can't toss it in the compost pile.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll bite on the apple analogy.

You blame the seller because this particular one sellers tell you that eating other people's apples will alienate you from god. Because if you eat their apples you will be miserable, suffer, die, and displease god. If you eat his apple you will live a happy, fulfilling life and get to sit on clouds smiling and god playing harps for all eternity. What he doesnt tell you is that his apple may not have the most nutrients. It may make you sick/unhappy/suffer/die. He shows you pictures of happy people with lots of smiling kids eating apples while keeping the rotten sick ones under the back deck locked in trunks. He also wont tell you that his apples are addictive and you will lose all of your friends and family if you try and go to another apple seller.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I blame religion! ;)

Of course, not all religion goes to these extremes, but I do think the whole idea of a supernatural deity that wants something is part of the problem. I don't really understand what makes people convert to fundamentalism, but I'm guessing that they don't feel in charge of their own lives. Not sure what causes that, but I certainly don't think it's helped by mainstream religion's assertions that obedience, submission, worship, and veneration are good things.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also when I discover that this apple is a piece of crap and say screw this, let me research better apples and maybe even ow or pick my own or abandon apple eating altogether no one shuns me. I don't risk losing my marriage or kids, I don't risk having no skills and needing to support myself and no one instructs my church family to shun my children

And an apple isn't vital to my well being but living in a family and around people who love me is. But it the patriarchy apple my very essence has to be destroyed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When you sell a product based on fear (YOU ARE OFFENDING GOD IF YOU DONT DO THIS!!!) you're the piece of shit. The sheeple that buy into it are at fault, but once they're there they're stuck. Its no longer concievable in their mind to leave, because their life is too tied.

Mcdonalds doesnt scare you into buying their product. They just make it cheap and yummy. Thats a totally different issue.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not to mention, we're now seeing a lot of the folks stuck in fundieism being the children of parents who have bought into it. *They* didn't have a choice, and I don't fault them for being ignorant and brainwashed. I really think, though, that this new generation of "children of wackos" will likely begin breaking away in large portions due to the system's inability to sustain itself. SAHD epidemic, anyone?

I was homeschooled and sheltered, but I used my ability to read books and inform myself my whole life, which is why I remained a "rebel" (not really, but it's what legalists think) and was able to break away from it at 19.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I kind of feel that it is both their responsibilities but I think it is a waste of time to choosing who is more responsible (Ex: you are 95% responsible, you are 5%, it just doesn't make sense). As to why we don't snark on those who have left, it's like kicking someone when their down. They have seen their errors and are trying to correct them. There is no point in going "Lol, yeah ur so dumb for believing in that stuff and even though u dont believe it anymore we r going to keep harping on it for the rest of ur life lolz". YMMV.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh and I do hold people responsible for their own lives but it is extra reprehensible that a snake oil salesman is selling what god intended for youR life and then according to kisa doesn't even drink their own shitting tonic (or eat their own poisioned apple). The crap they market is only for the masses to buy and consume.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Dougie stood up tomorrow and said, publicly, "This was all a terrible mistake. It ruins lives. I'm coming out of the closet and being happy and I want you all to do that too - and I am very, very sorry. If I weren't broke I'd give the money back" then actually followed through (not Haggard-style with the "i never was homophobic and you can't prove I was!) I would be nice to him, too.

We don't go easy on the adults who get into this voluntarily and continue to peddle the nonsense, I don't think - we go easy on the kids, and walkaways, especially those that recognize the damage they've done. There's a grey area around folks who grew up "in the movement" and are now adults, especially women who were told not to think or trust themselves and seriously undereducated as they grew up inside - we all have our own lines where they seem like fair game or not.

And then some of the currently-fundie bloggers we softpedal a little because they either seem to not be doing anything that bad (they mouth the words but don't act like assholes) or they are pretty clearly not able to make good decisions for themselves and have been sucked in by the recruitment/evangelism machine. Cults go after vulnerable people - some of our bloggers very nearly scream "I am emotionally unstable and vulnerable" even when they're painting themselves in the most flattering light they can manage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Adults who are deceived by the shiny packaging of course have to shoulder roughly equal parts of the blame, especially for forcefeeding their children.

But the peddlers of the poison don´t have only responsibility for screwing up one family but many, so there is more blame to go around.

Extra blame if they somewhat know they´re gilding a turd to sell it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Anonymous

Not all apple sellers stay in the market place and wait to be approached by customers. Many of them coat their apples in candy and take them to schools, public parks and fairs and give them to children who are unable to discern the difference between the apple seller and the ice cream van. And those sellers lure the kids into Sunday Schools and camps where they offer more sweet treats, along with stories of hell and eternal damnation. And by the time the kid is old enough to start to feel sickened by the excess sugar and frightened by the stories, they have already given up the other clubs and friends they used to have, and their developing powers of reasoning have already been warped by the storyteller.

Other Bad Apple Sellers go to the homeless, the sick, the poor and wrap their magotty apples up in whatever would appeal to that demographic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll bite on the apple analogy.

You blame the seller because this particular one sellers tell you that eating other people's apples will alienate you from god. Because if you eat their apples you will be miserable, suffer, die, and displease god. If you eat his apple you will live a happy, fulfilling life and get to sit on clouds smiling and god playing harps for all eternity. What he doesnt tell you is that his apple may not have the most nutrients. It may make you sick/unhappy/suffer/die. He shows you pictures of happy people with lots of smiling kids eating apples while keeping the rotten sick ones under the back deck locked in trunks. He also wont tell you that his apples are addictive and you will lose all of your friends and family if you try and go to another apple seller.

THIS.

Also, I love the patience of FJ in being willing to explain. But you are not explaining to someone who is listening.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that your analogy is imcomplete. Here is why

McDonald's is held to be partially to blame for people's obsesity. That is why some have pushed the company to offer a few better kid alternatives to their high caloric fare. The media has been pretty good about informing us how unhealthy fast food is. In some communities, they are pressuring fast food restaurants to not offer toys with kids' meals.

The main religion of our nation is Christianity. Movies sell the message that people should just trust their instincts and believe. Think about it, not many movies favorably depict a person who wants to think things through and look at life skeptically. When the movies depict a skeptic in a positive manner, it is usually because the skeptic is going to make a jump of faith at the end of the movie. Our presidents are almost always Christian. Many of our holidays are Christian based.

So imagine the apple purchaser has been taught his or her entire life that he should just believe. The apple seller doesn't just sell fruit but also sells the idea that this type of apple will make the buyer a better person. Perhaps the buyer is from an abused, unstable home. He or she isn't stupid but simply very vulnerable. Their culture praises apple eaters. They have been taught to believe that eating apples will help them avoid death(heaven) and not eating apples will lead to a life of horrible pain(Hell) Unlike with McDonald's, no one is saying, "Eating a diet of just apples is unhealthy." When the buyer purchases the apples, he meets an entire community of people who eat the same type of apples. Little by little, they convince(guilt) the buyer into using less other food substances and just consuming apples.

Yes, the buyer and the seller are both at fault. But if the seller knows that he is lying about his product, he is more at fault and more responsible. Also, the seller is consciously bringing in more and more people to the extreme lifestyle.

A better analogy would be the way cigarettes were sold to Americans in the thirties or is being sold in some poor countries now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Extending the metaphor....think poisoned apple. Beautiful, shiny, wholesome looking on the outside. You don't know it's poison 'til you take a bite.

Different situation and different doctrinal stuff, but that is why my intelligent, highly educated parents joined a cult. It *seemed* to be just the thing to fill the need they had and heal some hurts. In that situation, you do not know what is *really* going on until after you have joined.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not all apple sellers stay in the market place and wait to be approached by customers. Many of them coat their apples in candy and take them to schools, public parks and fairs and give them to children who are unable to discern the difference between the apple seller and the ice cream van. And those sellers lure the kids into Sunday Schools and camps where they offer more sweet treats, along with stories of hell and eternal damnation. And by the time the kid is old enough to start to feel sickened by the excess sugar and frightened by the stories, they have already given up the other clubs and friends they used to have, and their developing powers of reasoning have already been warped by the storyteller.

Other Bad Apple Sellers go to the homeless, the sick, the poor and wrap their magotty apples up in whatever would appeal to that demographic.

This!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Marketers are not allowed to claim specific things that aren't true. McDonalds can claim their food is yummy and fun to eat, but not that it's good for your body. This is why most adverts stick to unprovable assertions - products are fun, enriching, tasty, and upper class. VF is the same. Families are godly, happy, and serene - see how unprovable that is? You see the commercial (in VF's case, the royal families) and you just gotta have that!

McDonalds gets crap because of societal pressures that limit other options. In poor areas McDonalds is much less expensive than fresh fruits/veggies, and how are they supposed to go to a different area if they don't have a car?

VF gets crap for the exact same reason. It's much harder to leave VF than to enter it.

Examples:

1. go back to public school once you're behind from homeschooling

2. get a job as a woman after years without one

3. go back to egalitarian marriages after blindly submitting

4. having so many kids you have a low standard of living

5. getting your health back after multiple pregnancies

Plus there's confirmation bias and other features that neurologically make some things more addictive to the brain than others. VF encourages followers to:

1. filter all incoming information

2. overgeneralize

3. polarize their thinking

4. false pattern discernment with regards to feminism and the worlds ills

5. catastrophise the secular world

6. develop control fallacies wrt their childrens salvation

7. surround themselves with the Ashe effect (like-minded people creating peer pressure)

There are more but I have errands to run. VF makes their product "addictive" in this sense. It's easy to buy into and hard to leave both physically and mentally. This is why we snark so hard on the peddlers, so that *maybe* there will be enough information out there to help people make an informed decision.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.




×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.