Maxwell 57: Planning Mary's Wedding

[Black Aliss]

On 5/6/2023 at 9:27 AM, hoipolloi said:

In a recent bulletin, the KS church that the Maxwells attend announced that Sam Hock will be starting there as a missions minister:

So, will Sam & Mary be living in the Leavenworth area? Can Mary do remote learning to finish her degree?

The planter in the fundie church of my childhood was filled with Sansevieria plants. They did well in the low light in front of the choir loft. To the best of my knowledge they never had names, though.

[Hellothere]

Ugh, my bad, I meant to reference ANNA, not Mary, as perhaps ending doing non- missionary work in my earlier post:

“Do we know if Mary (ANNA) is seriously still bound on missionary work?  I could see her working with children in a Christian school, maybe as a teacher, or working in a business/ administrative capacity setting for a church or Christian school/ organization. Let Mary and (wedding in 20 days) husband Sam do the missionary thing (that seems to be the path his family members take) but Mary (ANNA)  should explore more options!”

Anna seems to me like she would be the daughter most likely to venture from the traditional fundie role her parents want for her.  I hope she ends up with a fun and fulfilling career, and, if she meets someone she is smitten with, a wonderful and supportive husband. 

Edited May 10, 2023 by Hellothere

[HereticHick]

I can't figure out if Sam being named as a "missions minister" by the church in Leavenworth means that he will be based at the church, they will be paying him a salary, and he will be doing "local" missionary work.  Or if it means that the church will be "sponsoring" him as a missionary (paying him some sort of salary, or taking up collections for him) elsewhere.

His parents, and his brother, are part of the Biblical Missions Worldwide (BMW) network: https://biblicalministries.org/missionary/David_Hock and last summer, when Sam went to Africa on a missioncation, he we through BMW.

But he's not currently listed with BMW.

[JermajestyDuggar]

Carver Bowers was answering questions yesterday day and there was one question that said ready for Kansas? He said something like he can’t wait to be a part of their day and it was the date of Mary and Sam’s wedding. So maybe he will be singing or playing music for the wedding. 

[anniebgood]

21 hours ago, Black Aliss said:

The planter in the fundie church of my childhood was filled with Sansevieria plants. They did well in the low light in front of the choir loft. To the best of my knowledge they never had names, though.

We didn't have planters, but we had a lovely rose garden just outside the front entrance. To the right of the doors people planted calla lilies of all colors that would be used at Easter to decorate the cross. 

[Wolf in Sheeples’ Clothing]

3 hours ago, anniebgood said:

We didn't have planters, but we had a lovely rose garden just outside the front entrance. To the right of the doors people planted calla lilies of all colors that would be used at Easter to decorate the cross. 

That sounds lovely!

[JermajestyDuggar]

Now I’m sitting her kind of sad for Anna. Many of her college friends have just graduated. And she has another year left. I’m sure she still has some friends in her class. But Alex, Nicole, Sam, and a couple others I’ve seen her hanging out with have graduated. And Mary will be married. I hope her senior year isn’t a bummer because she’s missing friends. 

[jakesykora]

15 hours ago, HereticHick said:

I can't figure out if Sam being named as a "missions minister" by the church in Leavenworth means that he will be based at the church, they will be paying him a salary, and he will be doing "local" missionary work.  Or if it means that the church will be "sponsoring" him as a missionary (paying him some sort of salary, or taking up collections for him) elsewhere.

<snip>

A missions minister/pastor would be at the church and he'd be paid a salary, and typically would be overseeing the missionaries the church supports (whether local missionaries or foreign missionaries - and in most cases, a combination of both).

Typically the missions pastor at a church would also help lead various short term projects, which usually range from things like serve days, sometimes things like regular outreach programs (like what the girls used to do in the school with the Bible club in the afternoons, though sometimes things like that churches would put under children/family pastor, assuming they have that position) to then trips like the girls have done overseas before, or even to visit the missionaries the church supports overseas. 

They also usually help provide education to the congregation about how to pray for and otherwise support the missions opportunities that the church is involved in.

Usually the missions pastor is someone who actually has been on the mission field for a period of time themselves or at least has a degree in missiology or cross-cultural missions or something like that, or at least a Bible or theology degree (in many cases, especially at smaller churches they don't require an MDiv for this position) with some degree of emphasis in missions.

Sam presumably has the latter (degree from ABC that is relevant) and then at least has the short-term experience plus having grown up overseas as what's typically called an MK (missionary kid) or TCK (third culture kid). But man large churches with a full-time missions minister often seek out someone who is older and more like returning "from the field" (whether domestic or international missions) and so with more hands on experience (plus education) than Sam has as he'd been more considered "pre-field," though he does have more relevant experience than many at very small churches I'm sure!

[HereticHick]

6 hours ago, jakesykora said:

A missions minister/pastor would be at the church and he'd be paid a salary, and typically would be overseeing the missionaries the church supports (whether local missionaries or foreign missionaries - and in most cases, a combination of both).

Typically the missions pastor at a church would also help lead various short term projects, which usually range from things like serve days, sometimes things like regular outreach programs (like what the girls used to do in the school with the Bible club in the afternoons, though sometimes things like that churches would put under children/family pastor, assuming they have that position) to then trips like the girls have done overseas before, or even to visit the missionaries the church supports overseas. 

They also usually help provide education to the congregation about how to pray for and otherwise support the missions opportunities that the church is involved in.

Usually the missions pastor is someone who actually has been on the mission field for a period of time themselves or at least has a degree in missiology or cross-cultural missions or something like that, or at least a Bible or theology degree (in many cases, especially at smaller churches they don't require an MDiv for this position) with some degree of emphasis in missions.

Sam presumably has the latter (degree from ABC that is relevant) and then at least has the short-term experience plus having grown up overseas as what's typically called an MK (missionary kid) or TCK (third culture kid). But man large churches with a full-time missions minister often seek out someone who is older and more like returning "from the field" (whether domestic or international missions) and so with more hands on experience (plus education) than Sam has as he'd been more considered "pre-field," though he does have more relevant experience than many at very small churches I'm sure!

Thanks, this is super helpful. I'm surprised that the Church of the Open Door can afford such a position. It doesn't seem like that huge a congregation.  I wonder if Sam and Mary are going to be living with family members (I certainly hope not with Mary's parents). Maybe they could live with GiGi?

Edited May 11, 2023 by HereticHick

[Red Hair, Black Dress]

I suspect Stevehovah will insist they live with Teri and him. 1) Try to re-assert some control over Mary as she'll be there all summer and 2) Browbeat Sam to embrace the Maxhell way of life for his own married life.

 

[Pammy]

2 hours ago, HereticHick said:

I'm surprised that the Church of the Open Door can afford such a position. It doesn't seem like that huge a congregation.

It's not uncommon for churches of lesser means to give professional-sounding ministry titles to volunteers, or to very part-time positions. It helps to structure the church, distribute work, and express what they value. It also gives a sense of responsibility-and-respect for people who are doing a job even if they aren't being paid (or aren't being paid much). It can also make the church seem bigger or more successful to have a large 'staff' with specific jobs.

In many smaller churches, the same volunteer 'position' might be called something like 'Head of the Missions Committee' if it was just volunteer run. But if the person had a degree and everything, I can see giving them a 'Pastor of' title just out of courtesy.

Edited May 11, 2023 by Pammy

[BigSandy]

2 hours ago, Red Hair, Black Dress said:

I suspect Stevehovah will insist they live with Teri and him. 1) Try to re-assert some control over Mary as she'll be there all summer and 2) Browbeat Sam to embrace the Maxhell way of life for his own married life.

 

Oh man I hope not!!! But I can definitely see him trying to do this!

[Howl]

4 hours ago, Red Hair, Black Dress said:

I suspect Stevehovah will insist they live with Teri and him. 1) Try to re-assert some control over Mary as she'll be there all summer and 2) Browbeat Sam to embrace the Maxhell way of life for his own married life.

A young fundy couple, or any couple,  just starting out needs a LOT of privacy. 

The same pastor who upended blew up the Maxhell status quo would put his foot down and stop the newly married couple from co-habiting with Terri and Steve, because it's such an obviously awful, very bad, terrible idea. 

Sam doesn't need a neurotic father-in-law regaling his new SiL about his vasectomy reversal glory days and making everyone get up at 6 am to do Bible reading. 

[Bluebirdbluebell]

4 hours ago, Red Hair, Black Dress said:

I suspect Stevehovah will insist they live with Teri and him. 1) Try to re-assert some control over Mary as she'll be there all summer and 2) Browbeat Sam to embrace the Maxhell way of life for his own married life.

 

Steve can't "insist" they live with him. They're grown adults. 

Once Mary marries she will be under her husband's "headship". 

I think they will probably live in an apartment.

However I've always known the marriage is often not the escape Free Jinger paints it to be. It's often more effective at keeping people fundie to marry them off than for them to stay single.

[jakesykora]

11 hours ago, HereticHick said:

Thanks, this is super helpful. I'm surprised that the Church of the Open Door can afford such a position. It doesn't seem like that huge a congregation.  I wonder if Sam and Mary are going to be living with family members (I certainly hope not with Mary's parents). Maybe they could live with GiGi?

You're welcome

My guess is it won't be full time or else it'll be missions+____ minister/pastor because the church doesn't have all that many staff people according to their website (one senior pastor and two associates, plus all the listed elders/deacons and the church treasurer, which I'd guess in a church this size is very much part-time or even volunteer but is named because people tend to be more comfortable giving when it appears you have someone who is truly more over finances).

I suspect they're kind of going to be in the position of a missions organization not typically wanting to send a brand newly married couple to a foreign mission field (particularly when they're also very young) and so they're wanting them in a ministry position as a couple stateside first.

So it may be a sort of 'created for Sam' position that helps take the church's missions program to the next level (looking at their missions page on their website it appears they are trying to bring more cohesion to things, so someone truly over the program would be a good next step) while also giving him enough of a ministry job stateside to satisfy the likely time requirement that most organizations require post-marriage, but would presumably also let him either live in some sort of church subsidized housing (if the pay isn't much) or else allow him enough hours to work something else part-time to help support them while he's at the church in this position.

Larger or very missions focused churches often have housing that they let foreign missionaries (especially "home grown" ones that came out of their own congregation) use when they come home on furlough (used to be about every 4 years for 6-12 months, now it's usually more like every 2 years for 3-4 months) or in cases when they might have a medical need, etc. Usually it's an apartment or house that someone kind of lets the church use or pay minimal rent to "bless" their missionaries - sort of like a parsonage for pastors, but much smaller - and sometimes they'd let other traveling missionaries that were speaking at their churches use it.

Since CotOD is over 100 years old and has been focused on missions for a long time (per it's webpage, at least) they may have such a place that they could even be provided for Sam and Mary short-term as the missions pastor and sort of about to be full-time missionaries sent by their church in a few years?

[Bethy]

11 hours ago, Red Hair, Black Dress said:

I suspect Stevehovah will insist they live with Teri and him. 1) Try to re-assert some control over Mary as she'll be there all summer and 2) Browbeat Sam to embrace the Maxhell way of life for his own married life.

 

We don't know GiGi's current situation. Her house might be available, either with her in it and needing care, or with her moved into the fathership or assisted living.

Still too close to Steve for my liking, though. And GiGi doesn't deserve to have to live with him either. Just hedging my bets on what fundie families usually do. There's often a push to move the elderly person into the next generation's home and absorb them into the family.

Plus, like @jakesykora pointed out, the church may have lodging lined up for them. It's just going to be hard to beat the commute given that the Maxes appear to only live about two miles away from the church.

Hopefully, in all their teaching/mentoring of engaged couples, ABC has impressed upon them the need to make some space from their parents. Living with either set of parents is not optimal for any newlywed couple, and father/FIL doesn't even have to be Steve Maxwell for that to be true. But given that father/FIL actually IS Steve Maxwell, it makes it even more true!

[Zee]

Mary might be finishing her degree online. I seem to remember that degree students only have to be on campus do one year. 

[hoipolloi]

3 minutes ago, Zee said:

Mary might be finishing her degree online. I seem to remember that degree students only have to be on campus do one year. 

Didn't she & Anna do the first parts of their degrees online? 

[marmalade]

4 minutes ago, hoipolloi said:

Didn't she & Anna do the first parts of their degrees online? 

If my math is correct, they did freshman year online and the next two years on campus. 

[Sops2]

Hw ya'a gonna keep them down on the farm now that they've seen Paree?

A song from after WW1, when they worried that soldiers would not want to return home to their farms after they'd experienced European city life and culture

[DJ1234]

21 hours ago, Red Hair, Black Dress said:

I suspect Stevehovah will insist they live with Teri and him. 1) Try to re-assert some control over Mary as she'll be there all summer and 2) Browbeat Sam to embrace the Maxhell way of life for his own married life.

 

Interesting.  I would assume the opposite.  That whole leave and cleave thing.

[Red Hair, Black Dress]

So far the leave and cleave thing has only applied to the sons, although most of them live within hollering distance.  I'm interested how Stevehovah will act with a married daughter in town.

Sarah avoided all this by moving away before she married, and then moving out of state immediately after.

Mary will be right there. For the entire summer. 

Edited May 12, 2023 by Red Hair, Black Dress

[Zee]

10 hours ago, hoipolloi said:

Didn't she & Anna do the first parts of their degrees online? 

 

10 hours ago, marmalade said:

If my math is correct, they did freshman year online and the next two years on campus. 

Yup first year was online. It was during the start of the pandemic 

Samuel won the missions award 

Spoiler

 

[Alisamer]

On 5/1/2023 at 10:45 PM, Zebedee said:

@front hugs > duggs thanks for that, very informative. It looks like lovely accommodation inside. I have long had a hankering to visit the Carolinas; the Carolinas (sorry if that is offensive to anyone, as a Euro, we just think of them like the Dakotas - North and South, and you go to both, and never really know what's what...) have taken a bit of a battering in my mind, thanks to Lindsey bloody Graham. (As has TX, but that's another kettle of fish!) Bring on sanity, Gen z (and better exchange rates for us Euros, lol) and Chapel Hill is at the top of my go-to list...

The Carolinas are often referred to like that, although there are some real differences between SC and NC. Politically North Carolina is quite blue in the cities and university towns, but red in rural areas and gerrymandered enough to make the Rs more powerful. For South Carolina I'd stick to upstate (Greenville, for example) or the coast - Charleston is nice as are the beaches. Chapel Hill is in North Carolina. If you do make it over here let me know - I'm near Charlotte NC!

On 5/7/2023 at 9:01 PM, kpmom said:

ABC does have an elementary education degree. I could see Anna pursuing that. 

Yes, I agree, I don’t like the idea of missionaries and church plantings at all.  I do like the idea of Mary getting a degree from an accredited college, though.  It might come in handy in the future if life doesn’t work out the way she planned.  

 

I think the only potential good thing about any of these fundies doing "missionary" work is that it might expose them to people outside their bubble. If they travel internationally, it might broaden their horizons even more. I don't think it's a coincidence that the Duggar who has opened their mind the most is the one who lived outside the US for a while. 

Normal people, of course, would have learned this sort of thing as a matter of course, and broaden their horizons by travel. Without the added godbothering.

 

On 5/9/2023 at 6:40 PM, Black Aliss said:

The planter in the fundie church of my childhood was filled with Sansevieria plants. They did well in the low light in front of the choir loft. To the best of my knowledge they never had names, though.

There's something karmic about a fundie church having a planter full of snake plants in front of the choir loft.

[Black Aliss]

1 hour ago, Alisamer said:

There's something karmic about a fundie church having a planter full of snake plants in front of the choir loft.

Especially since the choir director was a serial groomer/child molester