Idaho Mom Lori Daybell 2

[Howl]

Also never refilling his meds...although I think she stopped doing that when they moved to Rexburg. 

[Howl]

Nate Eaton is live tweeting: 

Quick summary: Samantha Daybell, Tammy's sister is on the stand.  She and Tammy saw each other daily.  She said Tammy looked very healthy in the two weeks leading up to her death.  She found out that Chad had remarried exactly one month after Tammy died and she was devastated.  She google "Lori Ryan" when she found out.  She discovered that Charles had been shot by Lori's brother, when Chad told Samantha that Charles had died of a heart attack. 

Samantha found an obituary for Charles and a comment Kay Woodcock left that said, "We will take care of JJ." After learning there were children involved, Samantha said to Chad, "Please tell me about this woman you replaced my sister with."   Chad responded that Lori had a hard life and they were trying to stay away from the stigma of what had happened to her. Samantha asked if Chad and Lori would be raising kids together. "He told me no. There's no children and they were going to be empty nesters."

[AmazonGrace]

Why was she not fit to stand trial before`? she sounds totally cool, calm, collected, cold and calculating in that phone call

[Howl]

4 hours ago, AmazonGrace said:

Why was she not fit to stand trial before?

I'd guess thinking that one is a goddess who will lead the 144,000 and then being in jail for a long time and realizing that jail, then prison, is your life for the foreseeable future...

Back to Nate Eaton's coverage of the trial.  Witnesses today (EMTs, coroner, deputy coroner) testified about being called to Chad's house after 6 am and finding Tammy dead.  Tammy was in rigor; she had likely died between 12:30 - 2 am -- much earlier in the night.  Chad and Garth (Chad and Tammy's son who lived with them) had moved Tammy from the floor  back to the bed.  However, lividity on Tammy's back indicated she had died on her back. 

When the deputy coroner arrived, she noted that Tammy had pink foam coming out of her mouth, a LOT of pink foam.  

From Nate Eaton's live tweeting: [Deputy Coroner] Willmore says when she walked in, Tammy had foam coming out of her mouth - "quite a bit of foam" - and Willmore says "that was odd." When Willmore touched Tammy, she realized Tammy had been dead for a while because she was so cold and her body was stiff...Willmore had never been to a death scene where she saw pink foam. "It caused me enough concern that I got my phone and looked up poisoning. I also looked up foam just because I thought it was weird and I had not seen that before."

The coroner arrived at some point.   Coroner and deputy coroner were not MDs but both had years of experience as  EMTs. 

Chad and one of the daughters insisted that no autopsy be performed, but had the coroner and deputy coroner put the red flags together and demanded an autopsy, this would have all unraveled in a short amount of time.  It sounds as though the deputy coroner would have lobbied hard for an autopsy, but deferred to the coroner when she arrived. 

Also, when Tammy was exhumed and an autopsy was performed, the cause of death was determined to be asphyxia and the death was ruled a homicide. 

[AmazonGrace]

Huh,  they suspected foul play,  and then the suspects said let's not investigate further, and they said OK let's not.

[Howl]

6 hours ago, AmazonGrace said:

Huh,  they suspected foul play,  and then the suspects said let's not investigate further, and they said OK let's not.

Obvious that the deputy coroner was on full alert -- relatively young victim, so she was looking for concerning bruising, scratching and other signs of foul play, in addition to her "What the heck is this, possible poisoning?" reaction to the pink foam.  Tammy was dead for hours and in rigor before the deputy coroner arrived.  Chad had wiped off some of the pink foam from Tammy's face, but hours later, there was still a LOT of pink foam coming out. 

Sadly, the deputy coroner deferred to the coroner and that was that. 

Garth, who was in the house the night his mother died, hasn't been called to testify yet. 

In this trial, Lori is charged in the murder of JJ and Tylee AND conspiring to murder Tammy Daybell.  I'm curious so far about what specific evidence links Lori to conspiring to murder Tammy.   Text messages?  Being married to a murderer?  There are no witnesses saying that she conspired.  Alex is dead, Chad is mum.  

Also, are there separate charges for Tammy, JJ, Tylee?  For example, could Lori be found guilty of the murders of JJ and Tylee but not conspiring to murder Tammy. 

 

Edited April 29, 2023 by Howl

[Howl]

Just checked in on Websleuths.com  There is much concern that there is no "smoking gun" evidence presented so far at trial that directly ties Lori to the planning of the murders of Tammy, Tylee, JJ.  

There is a fascinating transcript posted on Websleuths of a call between Lori and Melanie Gibb where Melanie is beyond believing any of Lori's bullshit about the location of JJ and is totally past buying into Lori and Chad's beliefs and is actively challenging them. It's under the spoiler below. 

It's obvious that Melanie knows that something is very, very wrong.  Remember that Lori misdirected the Rexburg police performing a welfare check with the lie that Melanie had JJ, thus dragging Melanie into the entire cesspool of crazy. 

At the end of the call, Lori is claiming this about Jesus Christ: "He does protect me and he is protecting me and he will protect me against this accusation as well."  So, there is delusional belief that what's she's done and is doing is OK with Jesus. 

MG is Melanie Gibb. Chad is also listening in and has a few brief comments.  Whoever transcribed the call put Melanie's part of the call and Chad's comments in parenthesis. 

Spoiler

MG: (remember you told me JJ went to Kay’s and now he’s not there?)

LV: Well, I had to move him somewhere else because of her actions

MG: (Was she trying to come and get him, like kidnap him?)

LV: Well, yes she said that often times before but, um,

MG:  (Is there a reason I should be in danger to know where he is?)

LV: No, it’s nobody…it’s his danger, it’s the danger that there’s people after me, so it [puts you] in a bad position, everybody, if they don’t know anything then they don’t have to say they know. I’m just ..to keep him protected and keep everybody else..

MG: (why you told police he was with me?)

LV: I just needed to use (…) somebody that so I wouldn’t have to tell them where he really was if they were gonna tell Kay where he is

MG: (is it your family, your dad?)

LV: well my family, well not my whole family, as you know most of my family is working against me and with her basically

MG: (is JJ safe?)

LV: He is safe, and happy

MG: (are you afraid that I could be in danger, like if I knew how could that hurt me, I don’t understand how that could hurt me if I knew where he was)

LV: Well I’m just not telling anybody so that nobody has to say where he is or get questioned where he is so I can keep him as safe as possible.

MG: (I asked Al [Alex Cox], your brother, if I wanted to know where he was and he said I did not want to know and that he could not be found, what does that mean?)

LV: I don’t know why he would say that but it’s the same story like I don’t even want Al to know, I don’t want anybody to know so that nobody has to be worried about it, I mean nobody has to be questioned about it, so he can be safe

LV: The police are working with her (Kay) in some dark capacity so there’s no reason for them to be after me in the first place

MG: (has she threatened you?)

LV: yes lots of times

MG: (what did she say?)

LV: well, it’s in emails and everything, so

MG: (so she was gonna come and take him?)

LV: there’s a lot of things Melanie

MG: (he’s missing)

LV: I know exactly where he is, he’s perfectly fine

(scriptures)

LV: I promise you that I have done nothing wrong in this case but sometimes you have to hide in the cavity of a rock for your own life safety … there’s zero reason besides the darkness of Kay which you already know she’s dark

MG: (she seems like a normal person…I don’t know that personally)

LV: So you don’t know about her changing the thing to, for herself to be the beneficiary of the policy, so none of that’s dark? You’ve seen them on my computer

MG: (no I have not, I haven’t even looked on your computer before, you haven’t shown me anything)

LV: I don’t know why you’re being controversial to me or if you’re recording this conversation for the police or whatever, I don’t know what your intention is on this phone call but I love you with all my heart and I have forever, and I will always

MG:  (if you loved me you wouldn’t have told the police I had JJ)

LV: I do and and I appreciate you and I love you, and I would never do anything to harm you and I did exactly what I felt the Lord was instructing me to do you can have all of this confirmed to you by the Lord

MG: (my conscience is clear and I feel very understanding what’s really going on Lori and I don’t believe what you’re doing is correct, Tammy dies, and then your husband died, and then he’s missing, it just doesn’t sound like God’s plan to me, I never have felt 100% peace about it)

LV: You know me Mel, you know me. This does not sound like you, this sounds like you’ve been influenced by somebody dark who wants you to believe dark things that have fear, and have fear of the celestial world

MG: (I have a peace of conscience and I can see clearly)

LV: Well I’m sorry that you feel that way, I love you so much

LV: Stand with Christ when he comes again and he’s coming soon and we will all stand there and you will know at that point that he is supporting me and has supported me the whole time and I have not been deceived

(Chad: I just want to testify …Tammy…conspiracy theories, my sister in law’s right behind it all and I hope that you’re not being influenced by that dark (keme?)

MG: (I don’t know who she is)

(Chad: I know but she’s coming up with the same type of theories and it’s just not true…blah blah, she just passed away..blah blah, you just have to have faith and this is not some sort of master plan, there’s no way Lori and I could have (laughs) ever come up with this)

MG: (you can understand my concerns right?)

Chad: I can from an outside perspective but..

LV: (Lori cuts him off) From someone who knows as much as you know, NO. Not really. But we can feel Dave’s influence on you, I can feel that for sure.

MG: (he’s a very good man)

Chad: (I know but he seems to be the one that’s putting the doubts in your mind)

MG: (No, I have come to understand that my gut feeling I was not listening to it and I always felt uncomfortable with many things)

Chad: Okay.

LV: Well I’m sorry that I included you in those teachings then, for your own (security?) because I wish that you didn’t have as much knowledge as you have, as you will be accountable for the knowledge that you do have Mel.

MG: (so will you)

LV: I agree 100%, I have no fear of that 

MG? (scriptures)

MG: (we can wrest the scriptures for our own vainglory)

LV: I wrested the scriptures?? Is that what you’re accusing me of at this point?

MG: (I feel that you have)

LV: how, why do you feel that way, I need an explanation on this

MG: (If he has your back you would not not be able to tell me where you are and we couldn’t find JJ, like where is he, I’ve been asking where is he?)

LV: I could tell everybody where JJ is now and that would not be good for JJ, so I’m sorry that you don’t want me to protect my children but I would never ask you to not protect your children

LV: So I can tell that you’re just adversarial Mel, I love you, I’m sorry that you feel this way

MG: (because I actually do care I’m sharing what I feel, for you, because I know your salvation’s in trouble for what you’ve done.)

LV: My salvation is not in trouble, at all. And I think you should check that with the Lord again… I’m sorry that you feel that way sweetheart. I’m sorry that you are friends with all those who are against me…

MG: (I’m not friends with people that are against you)

LV: Apparently you are.

MG: (I’m not. I don’t know Kay, I don’t know talking about your sister in law I don’t even know what her name is, I don’t know any of those people. Why would they contact me anyway? How would I have even known about that?)

LV: Well you’re friends with Dave and apparently …

MG: (stuff about witnesses in the scriptures – nobody has seen that but you, there’s no witness…they had it later with other people, that was one experience but others joined in later when he brought other people into it, they had experiences)

LV: So that’s not a pattern at all?

MG: (honey what I’m saying is that after he saw that and other people joined in, they saw the things with him, he wasn’t alone, there was a witness for them there is no witness anybody’s ever seen what you’ve seen or experienced what you’ve seen)

LV: God knows it and I’ll never deny it, for my soul would be at stake if I did. So you can say it didn’t happen to me Mel but if I say it then I am accountable. You didn’t witness it, but I did.

MG: (but your behaviors is not ok, your behavior is not one of somebody that’s seen Christ, your behavior!)

LV: I never had any idea that you would be the person of all people to (…?) me. I cannot believe it.

MG: (I’m asking questions, and I am concerned for you, that is what somebody does when they care)

LV: you don’t sound like you’re concerned, you sound like you’re accusatory, you do not sound concerned. You sound pissed off.

MG: (I’m not, I am troubled, because these things, like you being with Chad, before he’s even divorced is unusual behavior for a person that’s seen Jesus Christ)

LV: I was never with him and he was never divorced. That’s your story

MG: (honey I’ve seen you guys together, so I’ve never seen you with Chad kiss him, and walk around the track at BYU with him. I never saw that?)

LV: you’re the one that’s feeling guilty about being with someone before they were divorced

MG: (oh honey, I think that’s not what we’re talking about here)

LV: well it’s not what we’re talking about here that’s what I’m saying you are going off the deep end

LV: have you ever seen Jesus Christ? do know what the future behavior would be if you had seen Jesus Christ? He does protect me and he is protecting me and he will protect me against this accusation as well. And we will both stand there with him and you tell me if I was lying or not, when we’re both standing there with Jesus Christ.

MG: (okay)

call ends

I think Melanie Gibb and Kay are very lucky to still be alive.  I think Alex would have kept on murdering if he had lived. 
 

 

[FiveAcres]

I have noticed that some commenters on WebSleuths have a strong bias against ANY sort of circumstantial evidence in a murder case. They have failed to note that in another very high profile case, Patrick Frazee was found guilty of murder and sentenced to life without parole despite having successfully destroyed his lover's body. Granted, his accessory (who cleaned up the murder scene) turned on him and bolstered the State's case, but her testimony was supported by a wealth of circumstantial evidence so it wasn't a he said, she said situation.

 

Edited April 30, 2023 by FiveAcres
spelling

[Howl]

I think the  jurors will put together that, even with a lack hard, specific evidence of Lori's exact role in their deaths, her children were GONE, she never reported them missing, continued to receive their SS and other benefits to the tune of around $4,000/month and ran off to Hawaii.  No one, not one person, has reported that she grieved their deaths. 

[AmazonGrace]

If I was in the jury all the random BS about where the kids were would be the nail in the coffin.  Bye bye Lori, we'll never miss ya
 

[Chickenbutt]

I've been listening to several podcasts and one of the common questions is the difference between the burials of JJ and Tylee's bodies. I think Tylee fought hard against whoever actually killed her (Alex), and the dismemberment and burning was to hide the evidence of the injuries she sustained from her fighting not to die. Am I completely off base here?

[hoipolloi]

32 minutes ago, Chickenbutt said:

I think Tylee fought hard against whoever actually killed her (Alex), and the dismemberment and burning was to hide the evidence of the injuries she sustained from her fighting not to die. Am I completely off base here?

No. That's entirely possible. The testimony of the pathologist & forensic anthropologist about the perimortem damage to her remains may support that interpretation. Because of the fire damage and incomplete remains, though, it is difficult to determine. I also think that Chad & Alex realized, belatedly, that their method of disposing of Tyleeʻs remains took way too long and could have been seen by anyone near the property. So, when they murdered JJ they chose a faster way to conceal his remains.

@Howl said:

Quote

I think the  jurors will put together that, even with a lack hard, specific evidence of Lori's exact role in their deaths, her children were GONE, she never reported them missing, continued to receive their SS and other benefits to the tune of around $4,000/month and ran off to Hawaii.  No one, not one person, has reported that she grieved their deaths. 

I agree. Unlike Tammy's death, where Lori probably has some plausible deniability about knowing anything, there is no way she can claim that she didn't know about her children's disappearance. Even if Chad and/or Alex actually committed the murders, Lori was involved and knew what was planned. The question for me is whether she will blame the two of them entirely. I continue to wonder if she will take the stand in her defense.

[Howl]

4 hours ago, hoipolloi said:

So, when they murdered JJ they chose a faster way to conceal his remains.

JJ was buried in such a shallow grave that I've always considered the possibility that Alex wrapped him in plastic because there was a plan to move his body at some point. 

I can't bear to think about Tylee's last hours and minutes.  

[hoipolloi]

2 hours ago, Howl said:

JJ was buried in such a shallow grave that I've always considered the possibility that Alex wrapped him in plastic because there was a plan to move his body at some point. 

I can't bear to think about Tylee's last hours and minutes

The fact that they decided to bury their victims on Chad's property is mind-boggling. Can't decide if it was stupidity, arrogance, or insanity -- maybe a combination of all three. 

Re: Tylee. I just hope that she died without knowing what was really happening. 

[Chickenbutt]

I too wonder if Lori will take the stand. I certainly hope that the prosecution will bring Lori back into the picture. There has been so much testimony lately that Lori's name hasn't been mentioned much. The prosecution needs to circle back to Lori while the burial/autopsy info is still fresh in the jurors minds. 

I also hope that they will reiterate the fact that Alex would do anything for Lori and never question anything she asked of him. What an odd relationship. 

And I think it all needs to be done before closing arguments and then again IN the closing argument. I think they need to stress the fact that Alex would have never done anything to those kids without Lori demanding it. 

Edited May 1, 2023 by Chickenbutt
More thoughts

[TN-peach]

[hoipolloi]

And with that evidence the window of plausible deniability for Lori in the murders of her children is nearly shut.

Sure, there could be non-criminal & coincidentally unrelated ways for her hair to be present in the crime scene but, man, that does not look good.

[TN-peach]

49 minutes ago, hoipolloi said:

And with that evidence the window of plausible deniability for Lori in the murders of her children is nearly shut.

Sure, there could be non-criminal & coincidentally unrelated ways for her hair to be present in the crime scene but, man, that does not look good.

I agree. Her lawyers can try to argue that her hair could have transferred to edge of the tape at any time and just happened be that piece of tape that day.  That would be pushing credulity. But it was one of the only things I can think of for how her hair could be there except for being there.... FTR I think she was there/knew about it. 

[Chickenbutt]

But, but, but, she had just moved to Rexburg and she used that roll of tape to pack the boxes for the move and her hair just happened to be stuck to the tape that ALEX (the fall guy) used. /s

[AmazonGrace]

I suppose they could try to claim that Lori's hair was on JJ's clothes or got on the tape from the other surroundings wherever he was being wrapped. Anybody could get the victim's mother's hair on the duct tape that way.

But if it was "anybody" then Lori would have reported him missing.

 

[hoipolloi]

The cell phone data are chilling, especially the timeline of the trip to Yellowstone NP:

Quote

There was a stop at (or very close to) a BBQ restaurant in West Yellowstone. The vehicle arrived back at Lori’s Rexburg [apartment] at 8:37 p.m. Wright says he could not identify much of anything to investigate with the Yellowstone trip – everything seemed normal and Wright is confiden[t] Tylee returned to the apartment. 

Apart from attacking the credibility of the state's various witnesses, has the defense put forward any alternative explanation for the facts?

 

[TN-peach]

27 minutes ago, hoipolloi said:

The cell phone data are chilling, especially the timeline of the trip to Yellowstone NP:

Apart from attacking the credibility of the state's various witnesses, has the defense put forward any alternative explanation for the facts?

 

No they have not. 

[Chickenbutt]

You guys are killing me! lol. I usually listen to the full audio when it gets posted in the evening. I try not to read anything during the day, but I am never successful. So now I sit in anticipation of todays testimony. 

Mr. Butt has given up on me. After dinner, I clean the kitchen, sit in my recliner with my current crochet project, plug in my headphones and listen. He watches TV and has learned that it is not wise to interrupt me. I do take breaks in case he has something important to say (he never does...lol). He can't wait for this trial to be over. But on the up side, I am getting a lot of crocheting done. 

Just because I can.......my current project is a freakin Preying Mantis!

 

[Howl]

The tedious presentation of cell phone data may end up being important  because it shows the jury how much time Alex spent at Lori's apartment -- three or four hours on many nights, hours also spent with JJ and possibly Tylee. 

 

 

 

[Bobology]

On 5/1/2023 at 5:04 PM, Chickenbutt said:

Just because I can.......my current project is a freakin Preying Mantis!

Please post a photo or two when the mantis is completed... or even in progress!