Nathan and Esther Bates 7: Being Typical Bates Offspring

[Coconut Flan]

Continued from here:

 

[xenobia]

Esther did a Q&A on Instagram. I think she needs to work a little on her deflection skills. 

[Cupcake79]

I don’t know much about Esther’s family. Maybe they never were involved with iblp? I think her answer might be a typical “not lying but leaving out a lot”. Maybe she wasn’t ever personally iblp and she, Nate and Kenna as a family are not now but we know Nate and the rest of the Bates family was. Still is?

[JermajestyDuggar]

9 minutes ago, Cupcake79 said:

I don’t know much about Esther’s family. Maybe they never were involved with iblp? I think her answer might be a typical “not lying but leaving out a lot”. Maybe she wasn’t ever personally iblp and she, Nate and Kenna as a family are not now but we know Nate and the rest of the Bates family was. Still is?

Yeah, her father in law is on the board of IBLP. Her husband grew up in it. His medic corps group is full of ALERT graduates. She may not have been in it, but her husband was. 

[marmalade]

I don't think any of the Bates boys went to ALERT. Couldn't afford it. Jackson came close, but his cohort was cancelled due to covid. Then he broke his arm or something. 

[dawn9476]

No. Esther's family was never IBLP. Her family was Mennonite at one time. She has some siblings that still are. I think she also has a sibling or siblings that are more progressive. I think she has at least one sibling that had a kid out of wedlock.

[Tdoc72]

Is it safe for the baby to just be seating on her lap during a flight?  Not sure what the rules/laws are for planes. But it just looks off. I noticed it in one of the 4th of July videos when she was being passed around the plane to everyone. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

I want to know who asked this question. Ridiculous. This group is constantly traveling overseas. Of course they get vaccines. They have to if they want to be in Medic Corps. Why would anyone hope people traveling all over the globe be unvaccinated? Ignorant. 

[anjulibai]

14 hours ago, Tdoc72 said:

Is it safe for the baby to just be seating on her lap during a flight?  Not sure what the rules/laws are for planes. But it just looks off. I noticed it in one of the 4th of July videos when she was being passed around the plane to everyone. 

Yes, it's totally fine. Lap babies fly free. 

[JDuggs]

I was interested in Esther’s response about the vaccines. To travel to many places overseas, vaccines aren’t required, just recommended. So I’m wondering if they’re getting more than the mandatory vaccines. Esther didn’t say that Kenna has all of the routine vaccinations and I’d be interested in that answer. I think Esther’s response was open ended enough to be interpreted in a positive way by both sides of the issue.

And Esther also addressed our recent discussion of what she sees in Nathan while answering a different assumption. She called Nathan the kindest, most caring person she’s ever met.

Edited July 23, 2023 by JDuggs
Add more

[JDuggs]

25 minutes ago, anjulibai said:

Yes, it's totally fine. Lap babies fly free. 

@Tdoc72 asked if it was safe for babies to be on laps on airplanes. I know it’s not required for babies to be in their own seats on commercial flights, but it’s definitely safer. I’m assuming it’s the same in a small private plane like the one Nathan was piloting, but I don’t know the actual regulations to know if a baby must be in its own seat.  

[Smash!]

I read from a flight attendant that in case of severe turbulence or if the pilot has to suddenly put on the brakes the forces will be so strong one couldn’t hold a baby anymore. 

Here‘s an article in the WaPo Flight attendants want to ban lap-babies on planes Experts agree that flying with a baby in your lap is a safety risk, but regulators still allow it

Spoiler

When the seat belt light blinks on, every passenger buckles up except for one group of fliers: lap-babies. Unrestrained children sharing a seat with their parents are exempt from the safety mandate, presenting a growing concern amid recent incidents of severe turbulence.

“We’ve seen airplanes go through turbulence recently and drop 4,000 feet in a split second,” said Sara Nelson, the international president of the Association of Flight Attendants-CWA. “The G-forces are not something even the most loving mother or father can guard against and hold their child. It’s just physically impossible.”

The union is pressing for a rule change that would require all passengers, regardless of age, to occupy an airplane seat with a restraint. Currently, children under 2 can fly free on their parents’ laps.

The AFA-CWA raised the issue Wednesday at the Federal Aviation Administration safety summit in Northern Virginia and has submitted its list of priorities, including “a seat for every soul,” to Congress. Legislators are in the process of crafting an FAA reauthorization bill, which expires in September. The union submitted the same recommendation during the last round of reauthorization in 2018.

The tragedy that haunts Nelson occurred in 1989, when United Flight 232 crash-landed in Sioux City, Iowa. Following protocol, the flight attendants instructed the parents to wrap their unbuckled babies in blankets and place them on the floor. Three of the infants suffered injuries, and one died.

“Sadly this has been more than a 30-year priority for our union,” Nelson said. “We must have children safe on the plane and in their own seats with a proper restraint device to make sure it never happens again.”

In 1994, the debate reemerged when a girl sitting on her mother’s lap died in a USAir crash in Charlotte.

“The safest possible thing is for everybody to be restrained,” said Ben Hoffman, president-elect of the American Academy of Pediatrics.

According to the FAA’s Civil Air Regulation Section 40.174: “A seat and an individual safety belt are required for each passenger and crew member excluding infants, who are in other than a recumbent position.”

Over the years, a variety of organizations and experts have contested the wisdom of this regulation, including the National Transportation Safety Board and the White House Commission on Aviation Safety and Security.

On many foreign carriers, parents can (loosely) secure their child with a belly loop belt that wraps around the baby’s torso and attaches to the adult’s seat belt. However, the FAA prohibits this accessory on U.S. carriers because of its potential dangers.

“During dynamic testing, the forward flailing of the adult and the child resulted in severe body impacts against the forward seat,” the agency stated in an advisory circular that addresses the supplemental belt.

Hoffman said the safest option is for parents to purchase a seat for their infant or toddler and secure them in an FAA-approved child restraint system (or car seat, in parenting vernacular). The agency has also certified a harness-like contraption called the Child Aviation Restraint System (CARES), which the company AmSafe recommends for children weighing 20 to 40 pounds.

Interestingly, the FAA echoes this position. In its “Flying with Children” overview, the agency states: “The safest place for your child under the age of two on a U.S. airplane is in approved child restraint system (CRS) or device, not in your lap. Your arms aren’t capable of holding your in-lap child securely, especially during unexpected turbulence, which is the number one cause of pediatric injuries on an airplane.”

The International Air Transport Association’s Best Practices Guide also recommends that parents tuck their children into a restraining device approved by the country’s safety regulator and the airline. But the association concedes: “If the responsible person does not provide an approved infant restraint system, or if the CRS is not accepted in accordance with the airline’s policy or State regulations, the infant should be held by a responsible person.”

Hoffman recognizes the drawbacks of requiring parents to purchase airplane tickets for their youngsters. The main concern is that families will not be able to afford the airfare and will resort to driving, a more perilous mode of transportation.

“If they travel by car instead, they will actually be putting themselves at a significantly greater risk, because car crashes are so much more common than airplane incidents, whether it’s a crash or turbulence,” Hoffman said.

To emphasize his point, he cited a 2003 study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association Pediatrics that assessed the risks to children if families switched from air to car travel. The researchers determined that if as few as 5 to 10 percent of travelers hit the road instead of flying, the number of infant deaths caused by car accidents would probably exceed the number of fatalities averted by requiring child restraints on planes.

“Unless space for young children in restraint seats can be provided at low cost to families, with little or no diversion to automobile travel, a policy requiring restraint seat use could cause a net increase in deaths,” the researchers concluded.

Hoffman said the best solution is for airlines to discount tickets for young travelers. “That would be great if the airline provided some mechanism to support the parents and not charge a full fare,” he said. “But the current system is cost prohibitive for many families.”

Colleen Lanin, the founder and editor of TravelMamas.com, flew once with her child on her lap and never again. Concerned about endangering her children, she decided to invest in seats for her daughter and son on subsequent flights.

She first used an FAA-approved car seat, which was safer but not stress-free: On a flight from San Diego to Minneapolis-St. Paul, a helpful passenger had fastened the gear so tightly to the plane seat that she could not remove it at her final destination. The airline had to call security to help. Once her children could sit up independently, she used a CARES harness, which is significantly lighter and less bulky than a car seat, which can be a hassle to drag through the airport.

“Pay for the extra seat. It makes your life so much easier,” said Lanin, whose children are now teenagers. “If you can’t afford that ticket, find a more affordable flight, or fly to a closer destination, or fly during weird times.”

Some parents have discovered temporary reprieves from holding their babies on long-haul flights. When their youngest daughter was a baby, Jolene and Andrzej Ejmont, founders of Wanderlust Storytellers, would reserve a bassinet, an amenity often available on international flights. However, during takeoff, landing and stretches of bumpy air, the Ejmonts would have to hold Avalee-Rose, who is now 6 years old.

“During minor turbulence, the [flight attendants] would take the bassinet off, and we would have to take her out, put her back in, out, in,” Andrzej said. “It was very annoying.”

The couple also secured Avalee-Rose in a carrier worn like a chest pack. “That felt safer, because she was always on me, strapped in,” said Andrzej, whose family of five is based in Australia and spends about half the year traveling. But like with the bassinet, the airline requires parents to remove their babies during certain maneuvers and conditions.

Hoffman warns that the carrier is not foolproof, especially during severe turbulence. “The child can slip out of it because of all of that force. A plane that falls 4,000 feet in seconds — that’s like being shot out of a cannon. A front pack is not going to do the same as a car seat.”

 

[nvmbr02]

Traveling with an infant/young child in an appropriate car seat is definitely safer. But it is not required for commercial or private planes. I traveled 2 or 3 times with a lap baby before learning of the risks. And once we started flying with the car seats I wouldn't fly any other way. They were a pain to drag through the airport and onto the plane. And they can be challenging to install correctly depending on how the seat works with the airplane seatbelt, but for my kids at least, it made the whole flight so much easier. 

 

[rebeccawriter01]

On 7/22/2023 at 1:50 PM, marmalade said:

I don't think any of the Bates boys went to ALERT. Couldn't afford it. Jackson came close, but his cohort was cancelled due to covid. Then he broke his arm or something. 

Nathan's pilot instructor also instructed classes at ALERT. Nathan, Michaela, Erin, Alyssa, Tori, Lawson, Trace, and later Carlin and Josie, took part in many IBLP-organized mission trips. All the boys took part in the smaller ALERT Cadet trainings during the family camp events though not the larger ones. 

[marmalade]

29 minutes ago, rebeccawriter01 said:

Nathan's pilot instructor also instructed classes at ALERT. Nathan, Michaela, Erin, Alyssa, Tori, Lawson, Trace, and later Carlin and Josie, took part in many IBLP-organized mission trips. All the boys took part in the smaller ALERT Cadet trainings during the family camp events though not the larger ones. 

The mini ALERT at the conferences isn't much to brag about. They just climbed ropes and stuff like that. 

But no, none of them attended ALERT proper. 

[JDuggs]

That surprises me that the Bates boys didn’t do ALERT. They all seemed so into law enforcement and paramilitary stuff. I thought they would have loved to do it. Was it really a financial issue? When did Gil become part of the IBLP board?

[marmalade]

41 minutes ago, JDuggs said:

That surprises me that the Bates boys didn’t do ALERT. They all seemed so into law enforcement and paramilitary stuff. I thought they would have loved to do it. Was it really a financial issue? When did Gil become part of the IBLP board?

I think the older boys like Lawson and Nathan had their own gigs, like playing doctor in the Philippines and other impoverished places. Jackson was all set to go, but he was a victim of covid. Maybe one of the youngest boys will go. But I don't know if they get automatic freebies even with Gil on the Board. IBLP is currently hemorrhaging money. 

[Tdoc72]

14 hours ago, anjulibai said:

Yes, it's totally fine. Lap babies fly free. 

Ok,thanks. I knew that about big planes, but wasn’t sure about the “Buddy Holly killing “ kind. 

[GreenBeans]

7 hours ago, Smash! said:

Hoffman said the safest option is for parents to purchase a seat for their infant or toddler and secure them in an FAA-approved child restraint system (or car seat, in parenting vernacular).

It would be helpful if airlines at least had these car seats available. Yes, you’d still have to purchase a ticket for the baby, but even when they do need their own seat at 2 years old they are heavily discounted. Parents having to purchase an extra car seat (because normal car seats aren’t aircraft approved) just for one trip, and having to haul it to and all over the airport and then throughout their travels is just such a hassle. I’m sure a lot more people would opt for the car seat option if the seat was simply available at the aircraft.

[Keys]

19 hours ago, GreenBeans said:

It would be helpful if airlines at least had these car seats available. Yes, you’d still have to purchase a ticket for the baby, but even when they do need their own seat at 2 years old they are heavily discounted. Parents having to purchase an extra car seat (because normal car seats aren’t aircraft approved) just for one trip, and having to haul it to and all over the airport and then throughout their travels is just such a hassle. I’m sure a lot more people would opt for the car seat option if the seat was simply available at the aircraft.

Oh really? In Canada, most (if not all?) seats are aircraft-approved. They come with a sticker on the side of the seat saying so. 

[GreenBeans]

4 hours ago, Keys said:

Oh really? In Canada, most (if not all?) seats are aircraft-approved. They come with a sticker on the side of the seat saying so. 

Here manufacturers have to apply for that and I think many don’t because it’s a hassle and there are only few parents who care for it. I think there are some specialized brands advertising for aircraft compatibility, but most parents won’t choose the car seat with their once-a-year holiday flight in mind. Even if most were aircraft approved, it’s still such a hassle to lug a car seat around only for the flight (many people will travel to the airport by public transport, and may not need a car at all on their vacation).

It shouldn’t be a big deal for airlines to simply have them available for use. They will know beforehand how many babies are going to be on any given flight.

[sndral]

19 hours ago, GreenBeans said:

…

It shouldn’t be a big deal for airlines to simply have them available for use. They will know beforehand how many babies are going to be on any given flight.

It shouldn’t be a big deal for airlines to get you to your destination as promised most of the time, but they can’t seem to do that these days. The last thing they need is to have to provide infant seats, heck they have enough trouble getting the correct planes to the right places w/ sufficient crew to fly them not to mention getting the passengers on the plane in the seats said passengers likely paid to upgrade to. No other form of public transportation - buses, trains, ferries, etc. - is required to have infant seats available. Should the airline only provide infant seats for those who actually purchased a seat for their baby & assuming a normal domestic single aisle plane paid to upgrade the baby to the window which is where the seats typically are required to be placed? For those who are flying w/ a free lap baby should the airline provide the infant carrier if there happens to be an empty seat on the plane, but not do so if the plane is 100% booked & if there’s an empty seat it’s probably not going to be next to the parent - so do they look for volunteers willing to move or do they shuffle other passengers around (many of whom paid to upgrade to the window seat an infant carrier requires) to accommodate the window seat for the baby flying for free along w/ a middle seat for the parent? If there are no infant seats available at the gate, does the plane wait for them to arrive thereby causing other passengers to miss their connections? 

It just seems like a logistical nightmare & based on several canceled & delayed flights I’ve recently experienced the airlines are really really bad w/ logistics ATM.

Edited July 26, 2023 by sndral

[Keys]

20 hours ago, GreenBeans said:

Here manufacturers have to apply for that and I think many don’t because it’s a hassle and there are only few parents who care for it. I think there are some specialized brands advertising for aircraft compatibility, but most parents won’t choose the car seat with their once-a-year holiday flight in mind. Even if most were aircraft approved, it’s still such a hassle to lug a car seat around only for the flight (many people will travel to the airport by public transport, and may not need a car at all on their vacation).

It shouldn’t be a big deal for airlines to simply have them available for use. They will know beforehand how many babies are going to be on any given flight.

 

36 minutes ago, sndral said:

It shouldn’t be a big deal for airlines to get you to your destination as promised most of the time, but they can’t seem to do that these days. The last thing they need is to have to provide infant seats, heck they have enough trouble getting the correct planes to the right places w/ sufficient crew to fly them not to mention getting the passengers on the plane in the seats said passengers likely paid to upgrade to. No other form of public transportation - buses, trains, ferries, etc. - is required to have infant seats available. Should the airline only provide infant seats for those who actually purchased a seat for their baby & assuming a normal domestic single aisle plane paid to upgrade the baby to the window which is where the seats typically are required to be placed? For those who are flying w/ a free lap baby should the airline provide the infant carrier if there happens to be an empty seat on the plane, but not do so if the plane is 100% booked & if there’s an empty seat it’s probably not going to be next to the parent - so do they look for volunteers willing to move or do they shuffle other passengers around (many of whom paid to upgrade to the window seat an infant carrier requires) to accommodate the window seat for the baby flying for free along w/ a middle seat for the parent? If there are no infant seats available at the gate, does the plane wait for them to arrive thereby causing other passengers to miss their connections? 

It just seems like a logistical nightmare & based on several canceled & delayed flights I’ve recently experienced the airlines are really really bad w/ logistics ATM.

No, it *shouldn’t* be a big deal, but airlines seem to be such a hot mess these days that I do see your point. Having said that, I recently learned that you can actually request a crib on some flights?! There was a post in one of my mom Facebook groups talking about this… apparently on longer flights, if you select a seat behind a partition, you can request a bassinet that clips in in front of the seat. So if they can provide that, I don’t see why they can’t provide child seats. 
 

I totally agree that child seats are the epitome of bulky and annoying to lug through airports. But, trying to contain my squirming toddler on a flight on my lap seems even worse, lol. But I’d do it for the safety aspect alone, too. Definitely convenient that our car seats here are thankfully all approved for aircrafts. 

[Expectopatronus]

On 7/23/2023 at 5:18 PM, nvmbr02 said:

Traveling with an infant/young child in an appropriate car seat is definitely safer. But it is not required for commercial or private planes. I traveled 2 or 3 times with a lap baby before learning of the risks. And once we started flying with the car seats I wouldn't fly any other way. They were a pain to drag through the airport and onto the plane. And they can be challenging to install correctly depending on how the seat works with the airplane seatbelt, but for my kids at least, it made the whole flight so much easier. 

 

I attempted to use a car seat on an airplane with my then 26 lbs 2 year old but it got confiscated. The manual, website and seat all declared it compliant with air travel but the attendant said it wasn’t on their specific list and took it. We hit turbulence and my kid slid under her seatbelt and hit her head on the seat ahead. I held her the rest of the flight. The same attendant who took the car seat told me that the rules have nothing to do with height or weight and it was safe for the bigger child in front of us to be held because she was only 23 months. I let them scream at me and held my kid. It was safer than having her fall again and she was so frightened by falling that she wet her pants. No one noticed or helped (other than other passengers who were horrified by seeing the fall and hearing the thunk of her head and back). 

[Keys]

32 minutes ago, Expectopatronus said:

I attempted to use a car seat on an airplane with my then 26 lbs 2 year old but it got confiscated. The manual, website and seat all declared it compliant with air travel but the attendant said it wasn’t on their specific list and took it. We hit turbulence and my kid slid under her seatbelt and hit her head on the seat ahead. I held her the rest of the flight. The same attendant who took the car seat told me that the rules have nothing to do with height or weight and it was safe for the bigger child in front of us to be held because she was only 23 months. I let them scream at me and held my kid. It was safer than having her fall again and she was so frightened by falling that she wet her pants. No one noticed or helped (other than other passengers who were horrified by seeing the fall and hearing the thunk of her head and back). 

This is awful! I’m so sorry. I’ve seen a few posts in the Canadian car seat safety group on a Facebook about airlines randomly not allowing a seat on the plane. And thankfully it seems in most cases that the parent was able to press to speak with a manager and show the transport Canada laws that contradict what they were trying to tell them. Traveling can be so stressful, especially with the littles.