Seewalds 48: Homophobia Now Mixed With Hypocrisy

[JDuggs]

4 hours ago, Satan'sFortress said:

New York Times article about women in Texas in situations similar to Jessa. She is very fortunate that she was able to get the care she did. The article tells about women who didn't. You should be able to read for free.

NYT article

I think I read the article carefully, which was very good. But I don’t see any of these women having a situation similar to Jessa’s. None of these situations mentioned the fetus not having a heartbeat. None of fetuses were viable and they were threatening the future fertility of the mother or the lives of the mother or their twins. I think as a radical pro-lifer, Jessa may very well have been willing to take those risks. I don’t think Jessa would empathize with any of these women. She would want them to continue the pregnancy until the fetus didn’t have a heartbeat.

[closetcagebaby]

I don’t feel bad for Jessa. I don’t feel bad for Jill R either. Both of them shouldn’t have more children to spiritually or otherwise abuse. I’ve spent years in repro justice as a clinic escort and as a volunteer at an abortion fund. I will gladly call myself pro abortion. I don’t think it’s helpful to only focus on the “valid” reasons pregnant people should have access to healthcare. Beyond that, Jessa is in an incredibly privileged position. I’ve seen women who have had to raise between $15-20k, not including travel or childcare, so that they can access later term care due to restrictions on care where they live. The stress of this is something I literally cannot imagine and it’s something Jessa will never have to deal with. Instead, she will vote and campaign and support even more restrictions. She could gain a shred of empathy but instead she monetized her experience and then didn’t want to deal with the reaction. 

[Jackie3]

2 hours ago, closetcagebaby said:

The stress of this is something I literally cannot imagine and it’s something Jessa will never have to deal with. Instead, she will vote and campaign and support even more restrictions.

Or maybe she will.

I dont' think Jessa is rich. If Arkansas makes its laws more restrictive, Jessa -- or other Duggar women -- could very well feel the effects. 

Jessa should think about that. What if her little sisters need a D&C? What if she miscarries again? Maybe she should educate herself about the different types of abortions, instead of clinging to the definition of  "all bad, all the time." 

I'm 100% in favor of women's choice for any and all types of abortions. I just find it fascinating how ignorant she and her followings are. They have their own defintion of abortion which is "Evil hussy choosing to kill her baby because she is too damn lazy or does't trust God enough."

[SassyPants]

1 hour ago, Jackie3 said:

Or maybe she will.

I dont' think Jessa is rich. If Arkansas makes its laws more restrictive, Jessa -- or other Duggar women -- could very well feel the effects. 

Jessa should think about that. What if her little sisters need a D&C? What if she miscarries again? Maybe she should educate herself about the different types of abortions, instead of clinging to the definition of  "all bad, all the time." 

I'm 100% in favor of women's choice for any and all types of abortions. I just find it fascinating how ignorant she and her followings are. They have their own defintion of abortion which is "Evil hussy choosing to kill her baby because she is too damn lazy or does't trust God enough."

Yep. And the legislation they support is the kind where any women showing up seeking care for either PG or with a non-viable fetus, would need to jump through hoops to plan the how, why, when, where to their current situation, and possibly be open for prosecution.  This is ALL about controlling WOMEN and making them 2nd class citizens. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

Every single extremely prolife person I’ve come across whose had an abortion themselves felt they were the one exception to the rule. Fundie do that sort of thing a lot. Not just on abortion circumstances. 

[JDuggs]

This is the definition of abortion in Arkansas, which only allows abortion to save the life of the mother. Abortion is not legal in the cases of rape or incest.

If Jessa’s fetus didn’t have a heartbeat, her D&C did not cause the death of the unborn “child” so it was not an abortion by law in Arkansas. If Jessa’s fetus had no skull, but had a heartbeat, it would have been an abortion. I understand that other states may have different definitions of abortion and could receive different treatment from doctors who are trying to avoid these gray areas. But people insisting that Jessa had an abortion are wrong. 

[OldFadedStar]

Walgreens won't dispense the medication that Jessa was given an option to take in Arkansas. Well, I dont know exactly what medicine the doctor would have prescribed but lets go with it being mifepristone. 

If Jessa had decided to do the medication route, it could have been more difficult for her to get the legally prescribed medication because of stuff like this. If pharmacies are pressured (which the GOP is working on both CVS and Rite Aid and I believe others as well), and it becomes hard to find a pharmacy that would cover it, that would totally affect someone in Jessas' shoes and with how quiverful these families are you know there is a higher chance of more miscarriages. 

[SassyPants]

58 minutes ago, OldFadedStar said:

Walgreens won't dispense the medication that Jessa was given an option to take in Arkansas. Well, I dont know exactly what medicine the doctor would have prescribed but lets go with it being mifepristone. 

If Jessa had decided to do the medication route, it could have been more difficult for her to get the legally prescribed medication because of stuff like this. If pharmacies are pressured (which the GOP is working on both CVS and Rite Aid and I believe others as well), and it becomes hard to find a pharmacy that would cover it, that would totally affect someone in Jessas' shoes and with how quiverful these families are you know there is a higher chance of more miscarriages. 

And especially these people because they are pregnant more than your average woman and because of this have more chances for a miscarriage. In the Duggar 2nd generation we know that Jill, Jessa (x2), Jinger have had miscarriages. Joy has had a stillborn that required medical intervention. Anna and Lauren also have had miscarriages. That’s a great many incidences of women needing GYN intervention. Can you image if they always had to prove, justify, jump through hoops to secure basic medical care?

[BadMurphy]

2 hours ago, JDuggs said:

This is the definition of abortion in Arkansas, which only allows abortion to save the life of the mother. Abortion is not legal in the cases of rape or incest.

If Jessa’s fetus didn’t have a heartbeat, her D&C did not cause the death of the unborn “child” so it was not an abortion by law in Arkansas. If Jessa’s fetus had no skull, but had a heartbeat, it would have been an abortion. I understand that other states may have different definitions of abortion and could receive different treatment from doctors who are trying to avoid these gray areas. But people insisting that Jessa had an abortion are wrong. 

 It literally says abortion means “terminate” the “pregnancy of a woman” not terminate the life. The life may or may not have naturally ended at that point but the D&C terminated (thus aborted) the pregnancy. 

[JDuggs]

1 minute ago, BadMurphy said:

 It literally says abortion means “terminate” the “pregnancy of a woman” not terminate the life. The life may or may not have naturally ended at that point but the D&C terminated (thus aborted) the pregnancy. 

You’re skipping the next phrase which is very important to the definition:

”with knowledge that the termination by any of those means will with reasonable likelihood cause the death of the unborn child”

Jessa’s doctor was working with the knowledge that the termination would not be causing a death.

[SassyPants]

2 hours ago, OldFadedStar said:

Walgreens won't dispense the medication that Jessa was given an option to take in Arkansas. Well, I dont know exactly what medicine the doctor would have prescribed but lets go with it being mifepristone. 

If Jessa had decided to do the medication route, it could have been more difficult for her to get the legally prescribed medication because of stuff like this. If pharmacies are pressured (which the GOP is working on both CVS and Rite Aid and I believe others as well), and it becomes hard to find a pharmacy that would cover it, that would totally affect someone in Jessas' shoes and with how quiverful these families are you know there is a higher chance of more miscarriages. 

ALSO- these folks might not be able to find a practitioner willing to provide this kind of care d/t to current legislation. Legislation that all these folks vehemently support.

Edited March 8, 2023 by SassyPants

[Smee]

On 3/8/2023 at 9:05 AM, JDuggs said:

This is the definition of abortion in Arkansas, which only allows abortion to save the life of the mother. Abortion is not legal in the cases of rape or incest.

If Jessa’s fetus didn’t have a heartbeat, her D&C did not cause the death of the unborn “child” so it was not an abortion by law in Arkansas. If Jessa’s fetus had no skull, but had a heartbeat, it would have been an abortion. I understand that other states may have different definitions of abortion and could receive different treatment from doctors who are trying to avoid these gray areas. But people insisting that Jessa had an abortion are wrong. 

It doesn’t say anything about a heartbeat being the determiner of life vs death. I agree with you that legally speaking, Jessa did not have an abortion (medically speaking, she did, but as has already been discussed upthread the definitions are not the same), however I am fairly certain that this law would not allow a woman who is 6 weeks pregnant with no heartbeat detected (yet) to go ahead and terminate the pregnancy. It would be seen as “causing death” of an embryo even without a heartbeat. And here’s where doctors worry, because they have to justify to people without a medical degree and in some cases with frighteningly poor comprehension skills, how they can be certain that THIS fetus without a heartbeat is definitely dead and will never have one again while THIS embryo without a heartbeat still has the potential to develop into a viable pregnancy, but that FIRST pregnant woman is still pregnant and needs medical care to terminate her pregnancy which hasn’t ended on its own.  
 

It seems like a super obvious difference to those of us with some basic understanding of pregnancy and the female body, but there are no shortage of over confident men out there certain of things that are not true. You ever meet that person who is like “this blue eyed mother and green eyed father had a child with brown eyes, so the mother definitely cheated because my 10th grade biology punnet squares said so and I don’t care that you’ve got a degree in genetics, I know what I’m talking about”? Those dudes make laws.

[JDuggs]

1 hour ago, Smee said:

It doesn’t say anything about a heartbeat being the determiner of life vs death. I agree with you that legally speaking, Jessa did not have an abortion (medically speaking, she did, but as has already been discussed upthread the definitions are not the same), however I am fairly certain that this law would not allow a woman who is 6 weeks pregnant with no heartbeat detected (yet) to go ahead and terminate the pregnancy. It would be seen as “causing death” of an embryo even without a heartbeat. 

Thanks, I had already forgotten about pre-heartbeat embryos. Last week, someone brought up the possibility that Jill Rodrigues was questioning what was going on with her pregnancy because she started miscarrying before there was a heartbeat. She probably wanted help from the doctors to save her pregnancy, not treat a miscarriage. She probably wasn’t believing that there wasn’t going to be a baby and she wanted more time for it to develop. And maybe the doctors wouldn’t do a D&C or any other miscarriage treatment If they were also unsure how it would be construed. These laws are a nightmare!

EDIT: Abortion is currently legal in Florida up until 15 weeks. Jill shouldn’t have had problems receiving miscarriage care from doctors there. My speculation: It seems to me that she was probably the one declining miscarriage treatment. Maybe she eventually was convinced that the fetus wasn’t going to develop and accepted treatment or she ended up not needing treatment.

Edited March 9, 2023 by JDuggs
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[FiveAcres]

On 3/8/2023 at 5:34 PM, JDuggs said:

Thanks, I had already forgotten about pre-heartbeat embryos. Last week, someone brought up the possibility that Jill Rodrigues was questioning what was going on with her pregnancy because she started miscarrying before there was a heartbeat. She probably wanted help from the doctors to save her pregnancy, not treat a miscarriage. She probably wasn’t believing that there wasn’t going to be a baby and she wanted more time for it to develop. And maybe the doctors wouldn’t do a D&C or any other miscarriage treatment If they were also unsure how it would be construed. These laws are a nightmare!

EDIT: Abortion is currently legal in Florida up until 15 weeks. Jill shouldn’t have had problems receiving miscarriage care from doctors there. My speculation: It seems to me that she was probably the one declining miscarriage treatment. Maybe she eventually was convinced that the fetus wasn’t going to develop and accepted treatment or she ended up not needing treatment.

I can't help believing that she and her entourage were a nightmare for the unfortunately ER staff who had to deal with them. 

[Mostly Catholic]

The problem with these "fetal heartbeat" laws is that: There is no heart before 9 weeks!  What people describe as a heartbeat at 6 weeks is really just some electrical activity in the clump of cells that will become the heart. From factcheck.org:

In the past four months, five states (Kentucky, Mississippi, Ohio, Georgia and Louisiana) have passed laws that ban abortion once a heartbeat becomes detectable during a pregnancy, which is generally possible by the sixth week of gestation, or the fourth week after conception. 

For this reason, abortion rights advocates such as Planned Parenthood refer to these measures as six-week abortion bans. Others, including proponents, call them “heartbeat” and sometimes “fetal heartbeat” legislation. All of the state laws allow abortion if the pregnant woman’s life or physical health is severely endangered, but only some make exceptions for fatal chromosomal anomalies in the fetus or in cases of rape or incest.

“Fetal heartbeat” is more of a legal term than a medical one, as some of the state laws specifically define a fetus as existing from the moment of conception. In medicine, however, a fetus doesn’t exist until eight weeks after fertilization, or at the end of the 10th week of pregnancy, when all the major organ systems have begun to form. Before then, the correct term is an embryo.

While none of the laws are currently in effect — and some have already been blocked in court — news coverage of the legislation has led to confusion. A Popular Science article, for instance, described the heartbeat at six weeks as a “rhythm a doctor can pick up on an ultrasound,” stating that “it isn’t a heartbeat, because the embryo has no heart.”

The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists also has said in a statement, “What is interpreted as a heartbeat in these bills is actually electrically-induced flickering of a portion of the fetal tissue that will become the heart as the embryo develops. Thus, ACOG does not use the term ‘heartbeat’ to describe these legislative bans on abortion because it is misleading language, out of step with the anatomical and clinical realities of that stage of pregnancy.”

 

[ven]

I am so happy to be living in europe, this is a non issue over here. 

[CarrotCake]

1 hour ago, ven said:

I am so happy to be living in europe, this is a non issue over here. 

For now… 

With conservatism on the rise in the whole world you can hear louder voices coming from the anti-choice side.

[LancetteShing99]

1 hour ago, ven said:

I am so happy to be living in europe, this is a non issue over here. 

You probably don't live in Poland.

[Smee]

23 minutes ago, CarrotCake said:

For now… 

With conservatism on the rise in the whole world you can hear louder voices coming from the anti-choice side.

Yeah, it HASN’T been a favourite political whipping horse here in Australia for most of my life; I know several women who have had them* without encountering extensive travel or costs or protestors, but I also travel in evangelical circles and I see the memes and misinformation shared on social media. We have to hold tight to the rights we have won; we cannot become complacent. That I have spent my fertile years with those rights does not guarantee my daughters will be able to say the same.

 

*notably, all the women I personally know who had abortions had at least one child already and conceived the aborted pregnancy within a marriage (in one case, they were in the midst of separating and are now divorced, but technically were married when she got pregnant). It’s not about “sluts keeping their legs crossed” and conservatives know that - they want more exhausted women with half a dozen children financially reliant on their husbands and stuck serving the patriarchy.

[WatchingTheTireFireBurn]

9 hours ago, Mostly Catholic said:

 

While none of the laws are currently in effect — and some have already been blocked in court — news coverage of the legislation has led to confusion. A Popular Science article, for instance, described the heartbeat at six weeks as a “rhythm a doctor can pick up on an ultrasound,” stating that “it isn’t a heartbeat, because the embryo has no heart.”

”

 

Georgia's 6 week law IS in effect. It was not in effect for a few weeks after an appeal but a higher up court said it could be in effect.

https://www.abortionfinder.org/abortion-guides-by-state/abortion-in-georgia

 

https://www.npr.org/2022/11/23/1139039767/georgia-supreme-court-reinstates-abortion-ban

Georgia's highest court reinstates ban on abortions after 6 weeks
November 23, 20222:41 PM ET
By The Associated Press

[ven]

4 hours ago, CarrotCake said:

For now… 

With conservatism on the rise in the whole world you can hear louder voices coming from the anti-choice side.

They just expanded euthanasia criteria for children by example ( and unbearable spychological suffering in children) , im not worried they taking it all back 

4 hours ago, LancetteShing99 said:

You probably don't live in Poland.

Nope 

Edited March 19, 2023 by ven

[AussieKrissy]

22 hours ago, Smee said:

Yeah, it HASN’T been a favourite political whipping horse here in Australia for most of my life; I know several women who have had them* without encountering extensive travel or costs or protestors, but I also travel in evangelical circles and I see the memes and misinformation shared on social media. We have to hold tight to the rights we have won; we cannot become complacent. That I have spent my fertile years with those rights does not guarantee my daughters will be able to say the same.

 

*notably, all the women I personally know who had abortions had at least one child already and conceived the aborted pregnancy within a marriage (in one case, they were in the midst of separating and are now divorced, but technically were married when she got pregnant). It’s not about “sluts keeping their legs crossed” and conservatives know that - they want more exhausted women with half a dozen children financially reliant on their husbands and stuck serving the patriarchy.

I’ll March with you babe, keep me in mind!!! 

 

[JDuggs]

Ben’s 21 year old sister Michelle is due in the fall. She got married when she was 18.

[Tangy Bee]

26 minutes ago, JDuggs said:

Ben’s 21 year old sister Michelle is due in the fall. She got married when she was 18.

I wonder if she purposely waited a few years.

[JDuggs]

1 minute ago, Tangy Bee said:

I wonder if she purposely waited a few years.

I remember her saying they were planning to wait awhile before having kids when she got married. The Seewalds apparently were doing a family photo shoot today. I’m guessing that Jessica is still in town visiting from Germany. I would think that Ben/Jessa and kids would also be there although Easter (sorry, Resurrection Sunday) weekend is probably a busy time for Ben.