Maxwell 56: Mary Found Freedom to Get Engaged

[JermajestyDuggar]

When my cousin gains a little holiday weight, it goes straight to her boobs and belly. Every body is different. It could just be a little weight gain which is no big deal to me and hope she’s happy and doesn’t feel self conscious about it. I know she was raised by “Steve the restricter.” That man is so controlling he could create an eating disorder out of thin air (pun intended).

Edited March 8, 2023 by JermajestyDuggar

[Caroline]

On 3/5/2023 at 10:37 PM, MamaJunebug said:

t has to be about a 3-hour trip from Chez Maxwell to Springfield, Mo.  Granted, I’m used to living in an urban area, and I know folks in more isolated small towns drive an hour or more for appointments and engagements on the regular.  But 6 hours on the road for an hour-long drive through a barren patch with slobbery animals begging treats?  Ehhhhh … [/Curb Your Enthusiasm)

I was thinking the same thing! I wouldn't care how close the 'zoo' was, it's a weird trip to take with grown children, mom and dad in the family van. How bizarre! We went out of our way to take our child (as a child and teenager) to every museum of every kind we could easily get to, and some we had to travel greater distances to get to. That was our thing, and we explored places as three curious people who actively wanted to LEARN and BE IN THE WORLD. oAt this very moment our daughter is abroad visiting new places with her roommate. They've split up for a few days because each wanted to do some different, solitary things. So much to learn on your own, but the poor Max women were never shown that.

 Those scaredy cat Maxwell parents! I'm so happy those young women are finally living their lives.  They are the definition of courageous, IMO.

[Black Aliss]

On 3/5/2023 at 4:23 PM, SassyPants said:

Real churches can be fun. Most religions are not all doom and gloom and hell and death an Maxhellian. They just aren’t. And if you are currently attending that kind of church, please exit and try another house of worship.

17 years, twice on Sunday, Wednesday eve, Thursday eve, and Tuesday mornings during the school year, in a hellfire and brimstone fundie-gelical church, and I figure I've paid my dues. You know what's really fun? Getting up early on Sunday morning and climbing through wild flowers and forests, alongside a nice stream, until you get to the top of a mountain and can have a good look around.

[SassyPants]

20 minutes ago, Black Aliss said:

17 years, twice on Sunday, Wednesday eve, Thursday eve, and Tuesday mornings during the school year, in a hellfire and brimstone fundie-gelical church, and I figure I've paid my dues. You know what's really fun? Getting up early on Sunday morning and climbing through wild flowers and forests, alongside a nice stream, until you get to the top of a mountain and can have a good look around.

Yes…I did take about a 5 year church break in my late 40-s-early 50s. My adult kids call it the church of nature or the church of the bike ride. 

[theologygeek]

Some pictures I found, all from public posts.  I still can't get over the difference in them.  They look fantastic and are just glowing.  

[BullyJBG]

8 hours ago, theologygeek said:

Some pictures I found, all from public posts.  I still can't get over the difference in them.  They look fantastic and are just glowing.  

(singing) Happy happy happy pants.......

[SPHASH]

Looks like they attended a (gasp!) sporting event.  Steve must be having an aneurysm.  They do look a lot happier than they did let's say four years ago.

[JermajestyDuggar]

41 minutes ago, SPHASH said:

Looks like they attended a (gasp!) sporting event.  Steve must be having an aneurysm.  They do look a lot happier than they did let's say four years ago.

Their good friend Nicole plays basketball so I bet they went to a lot of her home games. 

[nokidsmom]

On 3/7/2023 at 10:57 AM, SassyPants said:

Especially how they are all succeeding in their new lives outside of Steve’s prison. Within a year, Sarah is married and living in OK, Mary is engaged and Anna has a busy and what likes like fulfilling life. Awful, just awful how he robbed them, especially Sarah, of so many activities and opportunities for growth. Amen to whomever spoke up and got those girls out of there.

I am very happy for all of them and to me, it speaks volumes that within a very short time of leaving Chez Maxwell (be it school / independent living) they have all made happy lives for themselves.  It really has me wondering how much they suffered living within the compound.   That under the forced smiles there was some real unhappiness going on.

Someone(s) spoke up.  It seems that a lot of this coincided with their joining an actual church.   The elderly at the nursing home would not notice or be able to speak up about how strange the family was, but more normal folks at a (presumably) conservative church, there must have been serious alarm bells ringing.

 

[MamaJunebug]

I don’t have a lot of time to Fundie-watch these days  but I DO try to keep up with the Maxgals.  Makes me so happy to know they’re doing well - far away from borg central! 

Edited March 13, 2023 by MamaJunebug

[nokidsmom]

On 3/5/2023 at 4:30 PM, kpmom said:

Oh good Lord, the picture of those young adults buckled into the back seat like a bunch of 5 year olds on a kindergarten field trip. 
And the picture of them at the restaurant after the drive through safari, again looking like little kids, sitting up straight, hands folded.

if I wasn’t glad that all them escaped Maxhell before (I was), I’m 1,000 times happier now after refreshing my memory with those pictures.

I had forgotten about that picture!  I think I had to because it rang too many bells for me personally.  I was forced to take a "family vacation" like that at the age of 20 and it was 5 days worth of serious cringe to be sitting in the back of the family car, being crammed into the family camper (which worked when we were kids but was way too small for 5 adults) and generally being treated like I was 10.  And I won't say how embarrassed I was to tell my boss that my mom was making me take vacation in order to explain asking for vacation on short notice.  

ETA: I decided after that trip I would never take another vacation with them and it was indeed the last time.   In a way it was a shame because our earlier trips as kids were more enjoyable because we were younger and age appropriate.  I had good memories of those trips but my mom got hit with what I can only call was serious case of nostaglia for earlier times and tried to force those good times again when it clearly was not going to work anymore.

Back to the Maxwell pics, I  found it especially sad but also seriously cringeworthy.  Who on earth thinks it's a good idea to treat your kids like that and then post pictures of them?  Oh yeah, Steve would.   I can't imagine how Sarah at 31 felt about being shown like that.  I know she was still living in the compound but who knows how long she wanted to bust out given how fast she changed once she was out of there. 

1 hour ago, MamaJunebug said:

I don’t have a lot of time to Fundie-watch these days  but I DO try to keep up with the Maxgals.  Makes me so happy to know they’re doing well - far away from borg central! 

I haven't done as much in the last 6 months or so but I am trying to catch up.   I still have to do the deep dive into the Rod threads......

Edited March 13, 2023 by nokidsmom

[Pammy]

1 hour ago, nokidsmom said:

I was forced to take a "family vacation" like that at the age of 20 and it was 5 days worth of serious cringe to be sitting in the back of the family car, being crammed into the family camper (which worked when we were kids but was way too small for 5 adults) and generally being treated like I was 10. 

Totally off topic, but I'm just about to take my newly 18yo on a (lovely, expensive) family vacation, possibly crammed into some tight accommodations (can't be avoided without doubling the cost)... And I'd very much like to avoid treating her like she's 10! Knowing myself and my habits, there's a fairly real danger of that happening by accident. I'd love if you have any tips or advice for me so I don't make everyone uncomfortable.

[nvmbr02]

9 minutes ago, Pammy said:

Totally off topic, but I'm just about to take my newly 18yo on a (lovely, expensive) family vacation, possibly crammed into some tight accommodations (can't be avoided without doubling the cost)... And I'd very much like to avoid treating her like she's 10! Knowing myself and my habits, there's a fairly real danger of that happening by accident. I'd love if you have any tips or advice for me so I don't make everyone uncomfortable.

I'm not the previous poster (and I am curious on her experience, too), But with my now 19-year-old daughter, we have a few things. First, I ask if she wants to travel with us. As much as I want her to, I know she now has other responsibilities. IF she does want to travel with us I include her in the planning so she knows the expectations in advance. We get two hotel rooms, one for my husband and I and one for her and her siblings. If she wants to include her boyfriend, then we do get a third room and we out who pays for what based on the circumstances (this has only happened twice, she usually just travels alone with us). She lives in an apartment with one roommate at college so she is used to having more personal space. Generally at least once or twice during the trip all three of my kids (13, 17 and 19) choose to stay at the hotel and order room service or doordash or some other way of getting food and my husband and I go out. We give her the key to our room so she can get some privacy and quiet for awhile.

Basically we just try to respect her being an adult and get her input on things. She still likes to come so we are doing something right (for us! every family dynamic is different). 

[nokidsmom]

4 minutes ago, Pammy said:

Totally off topic, but I'm just about to take my newly 18yo on a (lovely, expensive) family vacation, possibly crammed into some tight accommodations (can't be avoided without doubling the cost)... And I'd very much like to avoid treating her like she's 10! Knowing myself and my habits, there's a fairly real danger of that happening by accident. I'd love if you have any tips or advice for me so I don't make everyone uncomfortable.

I guess the best advice I can give is to allow space when/where you can if your 18 yo indicates he/she wants space.   Even if the accommodations are tight and separate physical space (like a separate room) might not be possible, allowing space like doing some separate exploring / sightseeing or letting them stay in the room by themselves while you do something if they don't feel like going out.   Ask your 18 yo what she/he would like to do on the trip rather than mandate that "this is what we are going to do today, no questions" sort of thing.  Include them on the planning for the day. 

I will emphasize that the family camper was extremely small and there was zero privacy. We were pretty much on top of each other.  It was very uncomfortable and the lack of privacy was hard.   Even a shared hotel room had more space.   Everything had to be done together and our parents decided on what we were going to do that day with no input from us.    My mom got sick on the 5th day of the trip so it was cut short to go home, and I have to say I was very relieved to get back home.

[ElizaB]

It’s interesting to me how well the kids were able to transition into the outside world. They were so sheltered; yet they appear to be doing fairly well. I am fairly baffled by how that has happened.

[Bluebirdbluebell]

10 hours ago, nokidsmom said:

I am very happy for all of them and to me, it speaks volumes that within a very short time of leaving Chez Maxwell (be it school / independent living) they have all made happy lives for themselves.  It really has me wondering how much they suffered living within the compound.   That under the forced smiles there was some real unhappiness going on.

Someone(s) spoke up.  It seems that a lot of this coincided with their joining an actual church.   The elderly at the nursing home would not notice or be able to speak up about how strange the family was, but more normal folks at a (presumably) conservative church, there must have been serious alarm bells ringing.

 

I think the Maxwell girls spoke up. I think they realised they were getting older and none of the girls were leaving home. Most of their brothers were married and the youngest brother got involved with a teenager. I highly doubt anyone in their new church would interfere without being asked. Most people don't get involved unless asked. 

1 hour ago, ElizaB said:

It’s interesting to me how well the kids were able to transition into the outside world. They were so sheltered; yet they appear to be doing fairly well. I am fairly baffled by how that has happened.

It should be fairly obvious that there was things they weren't telling us. They probably did more things than they told us. They did tell us that Anna and Mary would leave for month long mission trips and seemed to be okay being away from home. Anna and Mary did those mission trips for years before they left. 

[Bethy]

7 hours ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

I think the Maxwell girls spoke up. I think they realised they were getting older and none of the girls were leaving home. Most of their brothers were married and the youngest brother got involved with a teenager. I highly doubt anyone in their new church would interfere without being asked. Most people don't get involved unless asked. 

I don't know...Steve really put himself out there with his whole "sons buying houses debt free, daughters sitting at home til marriage, college isn't for us" philosophy. It isn't like they were just a quiet family with three adult daughters who coincidentally failed to launch. He's published BOOKS on how to do life right - aka his way - and while pew-sitting church folks might mind their own business, a pastor or elder in a church might be in a position to say, "We need to talk about this..."

I personally think Sarah's concussions and the care she received shined a light on how messed up the whole thing was. They had surrounded themselves with like-minded people for so long (nursing home church with Cathy Jo/Jon-Marie and their parents, sewing long skirts with another family friend) and they so feared the outside world (remember Mary's heart hands and "I love my daddy," the stories of young Sarah crying after a slumber party and never wanting to do that again) that they didn't have much chance to get outside input. They bought a freaking PLAYGROUND which meant nobody was going to accidentally mingle with not-like-minded people while watching the kids play at a park. But long-term, more intensive medical care for Sarah's concussions probably helped highlight the issues.

[Bluebirdbluebell]

12 minutes ago, Bethy said:

I don't know...Steve really put himself out there with his whole "sons buying houses debt free, daughters sitting at home til marriage, college isn't for us" philosophy. It isn't like they were just a quiet family with three adult daughters who coincidentally failed to launch. He's published BOOKS on how to do life right - aka his way - and while pew-sitting church folks might mind their own business, a pastor or elder in a church might be in a position to say, "We need to talk about this..."

I personally think Sarah's concussions and the care she received shined a light on how messed up the whole thing was. They had surrounded themselves with like-minded people for so long (nursing home church with Cathy Jo/Jon-Marie and their parents, sewing long skirts with another family friend) and they so feared the outside world (remember Mary's heart hands and "I love my daddy," the stories of young Sarah crying after a slumber party and never wanting to do that again) that they didn't have much chance to get outside input. They bought a freaking PLAYGROUND which meant nobody was going to accidentally mingle with not-like-minded people while watching the kids play at a park. But long-term, more intensive medical care for Sarah's concussions probably helped highlight the issues.

I would be shocked if the pastor got involved without someone asking him for help. Without input from the family, he wouldn't necessarily know if his advice was needed, wanted, or would have an impact on the situation. Most people won't get involved without someone letting them know help is needed. Not everyone knows the Maxwells or read their blog, and not everyone would see the unhappiness you saw. 

There's also the question of how the Maxwells ended up at that church in the first place. According to the blog, in 2020, they started going in the evenings before the Pandemic while attending the nursing home in the mornings. There had to be some reason they started attending church in the evenings. That was a small change that eventually led to them moving out. 

I think they made a lot of small changes they didn't tell us about and eventually ended up here. I think it's sexist to assume the girls weren't leading their own escape. 

[hoipolloi]

1 hour ago, Bethy said:

Steve really put himself out there with his whole "sons buying houses debt free, daughters sitting at home til marriage, college isn't for us" philosophy.

Stevehovah would not be the first fundie to insist that people "do as we say, not as we do," especially if he could get away with concealing contrary behavior from his public at large. He may have done exactly this the whole time. After all, who was going to contradict him?

As to who initiated the great escape, my vote would be on the daughters doing so with the help of the church pastor & maybe other elders in that congregation. Sarahʻs concussions may have been the catalyst as well. In any case, we need a tell-all memoir but will, of course, never get one.

[nokidsmom]

41 minutes ago, hoipolloi said:

Stevehovah would not be the first fundie to insist that people "do as we say, not as we do," especially if he could get away with concealing contrary behavior from his public at large. He may have done exactly this the whole time. After all, who was going to contradict him?

Exactly this.   And Steveovah in particular seemed to be sensitive to the slightest deviation from his ideas/messages IMHO.   IIRC he didn't tolerate much in terms of questioning from attendess when the family was on their conference circuit.  I can only imagine how he would react to any kind of normal pushback from his family.  I think there was a lot of tension in Chez Maxwell.  

41 minutes ago, hoipolloi said:

As to who initiated the great escape, my vote would be on the daughters doing so with the help of the church pastor & maybe other elders in that congregation. Sarahʻs concussions may have been the catalyst as well. In any case, we need a tell-all memoir but will, of course, never get one.

I am leaning toward this as well.   I don't think anyone in the congregation would involve themselves unless asked but I think it likely that the daughters asked for assistance in some way, even if it was to talk to Steveovah about  2 of them go to ABC for example.   It may have been nothing dramatic.  

Sarah's head injury might have opened her eyes to the idea that not everyone in the outside world is evil.   Being an adult, her medical care would have not required her parents facilitation, that loss of control would have driven Steveovah nuts.  Possibly for the first time in her life, she was treated as an adult which may brought some clarity regarding her situation in life.  

I agree we will never know the whole story about what life was really like within the compound.  No Duggar-style tell-alls coming from this crew.  

 

[Alisamer]

22 hours ago, Pammy said:

Totally off topic, but I'm just about to take my newly 18yo on a (lovely, expensive) family vacation, possibly crammed into some tight accommodations (can't be avoided without doubling the cost)... And I'd very much like to avoid treating her like she's 10! Knowing myself and my habits, there's a fairly real danger of that happening by accident. I'd love if you have any tips or advice for me so I don't make everyone uncomfortable.

I think it's different for every person and family. Like, I'm creeping up on 50 and my family still vacations together sometimes. Usually a week at the beach once a year, and sometimes elsewhere or a day trip somewhere or something like that. I think it works for us partly because we never really had a period where we STOPPED vacationing together. Like we had a camper as kids and kept camping through early adulthood occasionally (parents went one weekend a month, we could join or not as we chose) and for several years my sisters and I had our own camper we could take whether the parents were going or not. 

But also sometimes we plan the trips, sometimes our mom instigates them, but we always collaborate on plans. My sisters and I are the major planners more often than not, now. And our parents travel a lot with groups. We can join if we want, or not. So far, not, but the option is there. 

A couple things to be aware of based on my own mother. If my sisters and I want to go on a trip without my mother, we have to keep it secret. Sometimes literally until the last minute. My middle sister and I have to do this with our youngest sister as well sometimes. If either of them find out in advance they will insinuate, guilt, or outright invite themselves along. It's annoying. Another thing my mom does (but is getting much better about) is being unwilling to split up to do our own things on vacation. Sometimes she will literally follow us around like a non-playable character companion in a video game. We are working on her being willing to NOT have to be glued to us at all times, if we are doing something she won't enjoy. This has always been a little easier with me, considered the oddball, than with my more conventional middle sister. It's also getting a little easier as mom ages a bit. 

I think family trips can work fine as adults as long as everyone treats each other like adults. Though I will say in our family by the end of a week-long trip I am ready to be DONE and sit alone at home with my cat. Middle sister is the same and so sometimes we will try to schedule something we will enjoy but the others won't care much about for a day later in the week, for a little separation. 

1 hour ago, hoipolloi said:

Sarahʻs concussions may have been the catalyst as well. 

I would think that with an injury like that happening at home, the medical team probably did a lot of the standard "do you feel safe at home" questions and if they went to the ER when it happened there was probably some "what the heck were you doing working out in that long skirt?" sort of reaction. I could see news of the injury getting to the pastor and between the doctor's reaction and the pastor's reaction, the girls having some sort of epiphany. 

[hoipolloi]

51 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

would think that with an injury like that happening at home, the medical team probably did a lot of the standard "do you feel safe at home" questions and if they went to the ER when it happened there was probably some "what the heck were you doing working out in that long skirt?" sort of reaction.

Good points. Iʻd forgotten that itʻs now SOP for medical care teams to ask you questions about life issues -- do you have food security? Do you feel safe at home? Do you feel depressed? Are you under financial stress? Concerning responses to one or more of those kinds of questions, or a reluctance to answer, may have been at least a yellow flag.

Imagine Steve knowing that Sarah might be asked these questions but not being able to answer for her or control her answers.

[RachelDM]

On 3/11/2023 at 4:36 PM, SPHASH said:

They do look a lot happier than they did let's say four years ago.

Just out of curiosity, I went and found a Random Life post from March 18th 2019. I'll let the pics and their captions speak for themselves.

Proofing Mom’s book in final form–in a quiet room and with a mocha–a perfect combination.

Gathering the children for aunties’ playtime

Mary taking Christmas pictures we received and redoing the spread on our refrigerator.

Anna and Mary enjoyed an energizing run in Kansas City one day.

[Margarita]

6 hours ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

I think it's sexist to assume the girls weren't leading their own escape. 

We're working with the info we have, c'mon. 

[IReallyAmHopewell]

It's amazing what freedom, friends, and hope can do for someone's outlook. Go Anna and Mary! And Sarah and Hubby!