Jump to content
IGNORED

Duggar by the Dozen 45: Life with Josh in Prison and Marrying as Fast as They Can


Coconut Flan

Recommended Posts

Yes, pretty sure Michelle famously said something like "anyone can make him a sandwich, but only his wife can fulfill his sexual needs" as a way to help fundie women prioritize what could be described as "turning tricks" in the fundie economy.

Cases in point: This theobro argues for femininity but in a way that reveals the hyper-gender roles become a means of power, the implicit idea being that the way for a woman to gain influence (and power) is by her feminine wiles. Though I'm guessing the women who buy into this will never have influence. Perhaps it becomes a way to get their needs met in an abusive dominionist household, i.e. if I smile and use gracious words, he will permit me to X or if I meet his sexual needs, he will become the spiritual leader I want him to be...or wahtever. 

 

Edited by neuroticcat
  • Upvote 4
  • Disgust 6
  • Eyeroll 3
  • WTF 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Smee I am pretty sure the author of Intended for Pleasure was a Christian fundamentalists, just not quiverfull. He had another book about how women could save their marriage to a cheating husband, and it was very similar to the advice Debi Pearl gave 20 years later: keep sweet, keep quiet, keep a perfect home, keep putting out…and the wayward husband will leave the other woman. It was very cruel.

My guess is that because he was a medical doctor and geeked out on the anatomy and physiology in the sex book, it was easy to minimize or altogether miss his over-arching beliefs.

Earlier in the previous thread I used the term “normal” in the context of daily sex within a consensual relationship not because such an arrangement is statistically common but because it’s fine and not abnormal (not sick or morally wrong). I 100% agree with you that using frequency of sex as a gauge for a couple’s relationship can be harmful if the therapist is comparing that number to anything other than what the individuals in the relationship want.

There is a lot of strange advice in these books and IMO some of the most problematic elements are what is implied or left that. For example, there is an assumption that the marriage vow is what allows for consent thereafter, and that is truly bizarre. It’s a convenient way to deny the possibility of marital rape.

 

 

 

 

 

 

  • Upvote 9
  • I Agree 1
  • Thank You 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

To each their own. For me, I couldn’t imagine having such a smooth sailing relationship with my significant other that I’d want to have sex every day. In my decades long marriage, we’ve been through so many ups and downs: work, finances, illness, infertility, children, in laws, exes, community controversy, home remodeling woes, and so much more. My mind does not work in a way where I can simply put it all aside for a daily romp in the hay. 

When it is assumed a marriage vow allows for consent thereafter, it is too easy for abuse of power to occur. Brian Suave above makes it seem like wives must use sex as currency to get what they want. Husbands can grant or deny their wives needs and wants according to how well she upholds the Stepford fundie wife sex on demand code. It sounds like too much opportunity for things to go wrong too often. The fundie wife’s only worth is sex and childbearing. Very creepy.

 

Edited by Cam
  • Upvote 24
Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, Cam said:

To each their own. For me, I couldn’t imagine having such a smooth sailing relationship with my significant other that I’d want to have sex every day. In my decades long marriage, we’ve been through so many ups and downs: work, finances, illness, infertility, children, in laws, exes, community controversy, home remodeling woes, and so much more. My mind does not work in a way where I can simply put it all aside for a daily romp in the hay. 

When it is assumed a marriage vow allows for consent thereafter, it is too easy for abuse of power to occur. Brian Suave above makes it seem like wives must use sex as currency to get what they want. Husbands can grant or deny their wives needs and wants according to how well she upholds the Stepford fundie wife sex on demand code. It sounds like too much opportunity for things to go wrong too often. The fundie wife’s only worth is sex and childbearing. Very creepy.

 

100%.

Daily sex is not the flex some people think it is. In some situations it’s quite concerning. (The daily sex conversation started with the woman with 16+ children and no mention of recovery after childbirth.)

 

 

 

 

 

  • Upvote 8
  • Sad 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/9/2022 at 10:41 PM, neuroticcat said:

Yes, pretty sure Michelle famously said something like "anyone can make him a sandwich, but only his wife can fulfill his sexual needs" as a way to help fundie women prioritize what could be described as "turning tricks" in the fundie economy.

Cases in point: This theobro argues for femininity but in a way that reveals the hyper-gender roles become a means of power, the implicit idea being that the way for a woman to gain influence (and power) is by her feminine wiles. Though I'm guessing the women who buy into this will never have influence. Perhaps it becomes a way to get their needs met in an abusive dominionist household, i.e. if I smile and use gracious words, he will permit me to X or if I meet his sexual needs, he will become the spiritual leader I want him to be...or wahtever. 

 

So- this is a bunch of drivel. BUT- I will say that “cultivating sexual responsiveness” hit home. I spent years being half interested in sex and then around November - I started doing some reading (of books NOT in my normal genre) and it pushed my sex drive into overdrive. I think THAT is something that someone can do (and it helped us). But everyone is different. And I didn’t do it to get anything out of it. I enjoy the books.

but I wish I had been more comfortable years ago

if I smiled all the time- my husband would think I had lost my marbles.

  • Upvote 10
  • I Agree 1
  • Love 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Meggo said:

So- this is a bunch of drivel. BUT- I will say that “cultivating sexual responsiveness” hit home. I spent years being half interested in sex and then around November - I started doing some reading (of books NOT in my normal genre) and it pushed my sex drive into overdrive. I think THAT is something that someone can do (and it helped us). But everyone is different. And I didn’t do it to get anything out of it. I enjoy the books.

but I wish I had been more comfortable years ago

if I smiled all the time- my husband would think I had lost my marbles.

There is significant research on how individuals (and especially women) respond sexually. Michelle’s statement is obnoxious and sad because it is all about control rather than instilling agency. I would much rather women under the science behind arousal because, yes, it is true that most women are not aroused spontaneously but have tremendous sexual interest and pleasure when placed in a responsive relationship and low stress context.

See here for a brief summary: https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/when-urge-is-uneven-understanding-universe-of-sexual-desire-0206185/amp/  

  • Upvote 6
  • Thank You 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm also going to guess by "cultivate sexual responsiveness," theobro does not have wife exploring her sexual pleasure in mind. Am guessing that his version translates to: be in the mood when husband wants it.

I have never heard a Christian teaching/book - mainstream or especially fundie - that encourages individual sexual exploration

  • Upvote 5
  • I Agree 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote

Noseybutt said "Imagine a person both being raised within purity culture and experiencing sexual assault. Unfortunately that's all too common in my professional world. I suspect it is quite common in fundie world--well, with several of the Duggar women, we know this is the case."

Elizabeth Smart said that she considered staying with her captors because she was now a chewed up piece of gum. What was the point in going home? https://www.fox13now.com/2013/05/06/elizabeth-smart-i-felt-like-a-chewed-up-piece-of-gum

  • Upvote 8
  • Sad 12
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, neuroticcat said:

I'm also going to guess by "cultivate sexual responsiveness," theobro does not have wife exploring her sexual pleasure in mind. Am guessing that his version translates to: be in the mood when husband wants it.

 

Sounds about right.

  • Upvote 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Mormonism-

Interestingly, another thing they are against, homosexuality and her father "came out". I wonder that helped her. I don't think she knew about it right away but maybe it was brought up at some point? She seems to have really dealt with what happened. 

  • Upvote 4
  • I Agree 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jordan and McKay just did a podcast/ YouTube video about the Duggars and do comparisons between IFB/IBLP/Duggars to Mormonism.  Includes a deep dive with TW on Pest

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5idXp6c3Byb3V0LmNvbS8xOTA1NzkzLnJzcw/episode/QnV6enNwcm91dC0xMTM0NTYwNw?ep=14

 

 

  • Upvote 8
  • Thank You 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/13/2022 at 12:57 PM, libgirl2 said:

Interestingly, another thing they are against, homosexuality and her father "came out". I wonder that helped her. I don't think she knew about it right away but maybe it was brought up at some point? She seems to have really dealt with what happened. 

Her father just came out a few years ago. Elizabeth has talked about purity culture and her abduction for year. 

I dont' think it's Mormonism or Christianity or Hasidism or any one religion. It's all religions who try to control women's sexuality by telling young girls they are "used up" if they engage in sexual activity before marriage. They are all trying to do the same thing, by the same means. 

I have thought a lot about why Elizabeth Smart has thrived post-abduction. Obviously she is a strong person. However, another huge factor must have been that her whole community embraced her with open arms and (for the most part) did not blame her. She herself said it was "easier" for her because her abuser was not a family member, a clearly evil outsider. He was not, say, a well-respected pastor in their community or something like that. Nobody pushed her to reconcile with him. As she said, she didn't have to have Thanksgiving dinner with him every year.

  • Upvote 22
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Jackie3 said:

 

I dont' think it's Mormonism or Christianity or Hasidism or any one religion. It's all religions who try to control women's sexuality by telling young girls they are "used up" if they engage in sexual activity before marriage. They are all trying to do the same thing, by the same means. 

 

Exactly. Almost all religion is male-dominated and seeks to control women. Female sexuality is apparently not seen as religious but some kind of carnal desire that is anti-male God. “Pleasures of the flesh” are of the devil unless sanctioned by marriage. The sexual lust of men must be indulged, of course, since they were made in the image of God! All hail the patriarchy. 
 

7 hours ago, Jackie3 said:

I have thought a lot about why Elizabeth Smart has thrived post-abduction. Obviously she is a strong person. However, another huge factor must have been that her whole community embraced her with open arms and (for the most part) did not blame her. She herself said it was "easier" for her because her abuser was not a family member, a clearly evil outsider. He was not, say, a well-respected pastor in their community or something like that. Nobody pushed her to reconcile with him. As she said, she didn't have to have Thanksgiving dinner with him every year.

This is very insightful. Elizabeth thrived due to a combination of who she is as a person and being able to rise above the circumstances surrounding her abduction and assault at the hands of a homeless nutcase with no redeeming qualities. No one is in his corner. Hers is a story of the resilient human spirit. 

  • Upvote 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The ex Mormon couple who do the “Embracing Apostasy with Jordan and McKay” podcast compare the Duggars and Mormonism this week.  McKay in particular is quite articulate, but there are more insightful Mormon podcasters out there and this particular podcast seems under researched. For instance, they noted that large Mormon families depend heavily on their older children to care for younger children but seem to have missed that it is only the Duggar girls who are in charge of littles. They see purity culture among the Duggars as similar but simply more extreme.
  Interestingly, they say most Mormons would be horrified by blanket training, and few young adult Mormons in their experience spank their children.
  The last section is about Josh.  They say that csa is common among Mormons, but their handling of it is more sophisticated—they immediately call in the lawyers. The Mormon Church uses its vast wealth to cover it up. They seem to think it’s common among large churches but don’t connect it with misogyny. The always male bishops (what Mormons call pastors) are not trained counselors but are considered able to handle family csa because they are essentially appointed by god. (Jordan herself was a victim.) They discuss a case of Mormon csa which went on for seven years with the knowledge of the church. The couple’s bishop blamed the wife—misogyny again —and the case became public only because a video of the father abusing his six-month-old daughter came to light in New Zealand. They say that Utah is actually number one in csa. 
  It would be great if they would connect the dots between misogyny, purity culture, and what they see as the church refusal to report csa to the authorities. Elizabeth Smart seems generally sharper than this couple and I wonder if she has addressed this. 

  • Upvote 4
  • Sad 1
  • Thank You 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Elizabeth also had therapy. Not all children abducted and raped get therapy. 

I thought she tried therapy briefly and decided it wasn't for her.

However, she is wealthy, educated, white and has a loving family. So she has many other privileges that would make it easier for her to recover.

Edited by Jackie3
  • Upvote 6
  • Downvote 1
  • I Agree 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Bastet said:

For instance, they noted that large Mormon families depend heavily on their older children to care for younger children but seem to have missed that it is only the Duggar girls who are in charge of littles.

I don't think there is a family in the world -- no matter what the religion -- who don't rely on the older kids somewhat when there are 5-6  little children in a family. 

I agree that those podcasters you mention don't seem to have thought about the issue in a thoughtful and thorough way.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Jackie3 said:

I don't think there is a family in the world -- no matter what the religion -- who don't rely on the older kids somewhat when there are 5-6  little children in a family. 

  They certainly know that big Mormon families do, and as you say, they do so out of necessity. These two always get the obvious, but they aren’t keen observers of other religions and didn’t seem to research fundie beliefs with respect to the Duggars. They did discuss the quiverful movement, however, but don’t go the next step to compare it to Mormons who are ok with birth control if the husband (the family patriarch!) decides it’s appropriate. It would have been useful to their theme if they had read up on Gothard, but, absent that, they still should have picked up on gender norms being frequently more rigid among fundies.  They researched the hell out of Josh, though. 🙄
  That said, they were interesting about how Mormons have since 1995 become even less compliant with mandated reporting of csa. Jordan and McKay just aren’t big picture people and are a certainly too incurious about anything outside their field of vision to be really good podcasters. 

Edited by Bastet
  • Upvote 2
  • Thank You 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Bastet said:

  They certainly know that big Mormon families do, and as you say, they do so out of necessity. These two always get the obvious, but they aren’t keen observers of other religions and didn’t seem to research fundie beliefs with respect to the Duggars. They did discuss the quiverful movement, however, but don’t go the next step to compare it to Mormons who are ok with birth control if the husband (the family patriarch!) decides it’s appropriate. It would have been useful to their theme if they had read up on Gothard, but, absent that, they still should have picked up on gender norms being frequently more rigid among fundies.  They researched the hell out of Josh, though. 🙄
  That said, they were interesting about how Mormons have since 1995 become even less compliant with mandated reporting of csa. Jordan and McKay just aren’t big picture people and are a certainly too incurious about anything outside their field of vision to be really good podcasters. 

This is an internet observation. I have listened to bits and pieces of their podcast because their description of Mormon theology and culture seems well done. It makes sense though that their expertise may not extend outside Mormon world. That may come with time and experience as they increasingly move outside Mormon circles.

I suspect that comparing IBLP to mainstream Mormonism is apples to oranges. A more appropriate comparison would be fundamentalist Mormon to IBLP.

In my local world (which is not in an Mormon enclave) part of the challenge of CSA within Mormon families is that if/when it gets beyond the church attorneys, we still have a disproportionate number of Mormon law enforcement, attorneys, and judges that make the process different than, say, other religious groups. 

 

  • Upvote 3
  • I Agree 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, noseybutt said:

This is an internet observation. I have listened to bits and pieces of their podcast because their description of Mormon theology and culture seems well done. It makes sense though that their expertise may not extend outside Mormon world. That may come with time and experience as they increasingly move outside Mormon circles.

I suspect that comparing IBLP to mainstream Mormonism is apples to oranges. A more appropriate comparison would be fundamentalist Mormon to IBLP.

In my local world (which is not in an Mormon enclave) part of the challenge of CSA within Mormon families is that if/when it gets beyond the church attorneys, we still have a disproportionate number of Mormon law enforcement, attorneys, and judges that make the process different than, say, other religious groups. 

 

I agree with comparing fundamentalist groups. I bet we could find lots of similarities between FLDS, Christian Fundies, Ultra Orthodox Jews, and fundamentalist Muslims. 

  • Upvote 5
  • I Agree 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, noseybutt said:

we still have a disproportionate number of Mormon law enforcement, attorneys, and judges that make the process different than, say, other religious groups. 

  This is a point Jordan and McKay make. 

  • Upvote 2
  • I Agree 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



  • Trending Content

  • Recent Status Updates

    • Bluebirdbluebell

      Bluebirdbluebell

      I stand with transpeople.
       💗💙🤍💙💗
      · 0 replies
    • bea

      bea

      I have discovered a DELIGHTFUL youtube channel where you can watch Sovereign Citizens get arrested.  😁
      · 0 replies
    • Gobbles

      Gobbles

      Guess I should update again? Frieda (Kiki, we renamed her) is here since the end of February 2021. She came with a bunch of problems, but is the best dog ever and is doing better every day. But we do now know how a dog with ptsd looks like. For real, not joking. If she is triggered during the day, she wakes up screaming at night. Not like dogs dream, but literally screaming. Other than that she went with us on countless trips, loves hiking and even cable cars. She is one heck of a fearless dog in situations who do not remind her of her old life. 
      My Grandpa passed away last May and I'm still grieving a lot. After sharing a house with my grandparents for over 30 years it is just horrible to lose one of them. Even though it was his decision and he got to go like he wanted. At home, in his bed during the night without doctors. He would have need more care and he did not want more care. So after turning 90 he decided to let go and became weaker and weaker. 
      In other news my dad stops working for good on April 1st. Retirement time. Keep my Mum and myself in your prayers. We really do not want him at home all the time. Haha! 
      · 1 reply
    • Bluebirdbluebell

      Bluebirdbluebell

      When it's a mix of religion and violent crime, I post the thread in the Quiverfull of True Crime section.
      · 0 replies
    • 47of74

      47of74

      Yes this is true 

      · 0 replies
    • Scrabblemaster

      Scrabblemaster

      Life is short. Live it.
      · 0 replies
    • FluffySnowball

      FluffySnowball

      I don't always make good decisions for myself due to severe depression but I did today actively decide not to do something that might have been detrimental for me and am very proud of myself. 
      · 1 reply
    • BlackberryGirl

      BlackberryGirl

      Well, this is weird. At some point, recently, I broke my wrist. I had to get a Dexa-scan today (put it off for years) and along with some bone loss, damn I had it a few minutes ago… the results said, “Fracture risk is moderate, and the patient has a significant wrist fracture. Treatment is advised.”  my left wrist aches a little but not near as much as my back, feet, knees or fingers, damn RA. I have no idea how it happened. I haven’t fallen in 2 years, haven’t banged or bumped…  the dr will call tomorrow and we’ll get  this straightened out.
      · 2 replies
    • 47of74

      47of74

      I need this. Bad. 

      · 0 replies
    • 47of74

      47of74

      I got my thin mint fix this evening...

      I'm looking forward to when my nieces can be my Thin Mint suppliers.
      · 1 reply
  • Recent Blog Entries

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.