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M Is for Mama 14: Kids Don't Need Toys When They Have Chores!


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48 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

She has never had a c-section delivery.

I’m pretty sure she had a breach birth. I have no idea if that complicates things. But I imagine breach births are hard on a body. 

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I'm reminded of one day in the ED when we had an unusually large number of uterine prolapse patients roll through - 3 in one day. They included an elderly woman who walked in and announced "My menstr'ater fell out!" to the triage nurse. She was quite clearly stage 4.

Edited by Leftitinmysnood
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1 hour ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I’m pretty sure she had a breach birth. I have no idea if that complicates things. But I imagine breach births are hard on a body. 

Probably 1 of the twin B’s (second born baby of one or both sets). Breach twin babies are fairly common. Those babies also tend to be smaller than singletons and are more easily able to change position. I hope it wasn’t one of the first set as they were birthed at home.

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Is there anywhere I can read a summary of who this family is? I really don't have time to go down this rabbit hole right now, but I stumbled upon a blog post of hers which included av floor plan of their house. I think it was being built at that point. As I have always been interested in floor plans I was quite fascinated. They must have a big house, almost like the Duggars maybe? How can they afford that?

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9 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Probably 1 of the twin B’s (second born baby of one or both sets). Breach twin babies are fairly common. Those babies also tend to be smaller than singletons and are more easily able to change position. I hope it wasn’t one of the first set as they were birthed at home.

I think it was with her first set and it wasn’t in a hospital. Her birth stories are ridiculously long so I just can’t go back and read that crap. 

4 minutes ago, Cupcake79 said:

Is there anywhere I can read a summary of who this family is? I really don't have time to go down this rabbit hole right now, but I stumbled upon a blog post of hers which included av floor plan of their house. I think it was being built at that point. As I have always been interested in floor plans I was quite fascinated. They must have a big house, almost like the Duggars maybe? How can they afford that?

She loves to brag that their last house was sold with it furnished because the people who bought it loved her style and decor so much. They sold it for $500,000 years ago when the market wasn’t crazy like now. She loves to brag that they built the house themselves but they hired out a lot of help. And the house is designed pretty crazy. Some angles look awful and choppy. While some rooms don’t have fire escape routes like a window. So you have to go through another room to escape a fire. It’s not a good design. 

Edited by JermajestyDuggar
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13 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

She loves to brag that they built the house themselves but they hired out a lot of help. And the house is designed pretty crazy. Some angles look awful and choppy. While some rooms don’t have fire escape routes like a window. So you have to go through another room to escape a fire. It’s not a good design. 

You're right. "Fascinated", as I wrote, is maybe not the correct wording? (English is not my first language). Or can fascinated be both positive and negative? Anyhow, big houses interest me in many ways, both positive and negative. I always find it weird with bedrooms without windows.

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15 minutes ago, Cupcake79 said:

You're right. "Fascinated", as I wrote, is maybe not the correct wording? (English is not my first language). Or can fascinated be both positive and negative? Anyhow, big houses interest me in many ways, both positive and negative. I always find it weird with bedrooms without windows.

Oh I agree she can be fascinating in a bad way. Like a train wreck. You just can’t look away! 

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17 minutes ago, Cupcake79 said:

You're right. "Fascinated", as I wrote, is maybe not the correct wording? (English is not my first language). Or can fascinated be both positive and negative? Anyhow, big houses interest me in many ways, both positive and negative. I always find it weird with bedrooms without windows.

So do real estate agents and fire marshalls. (In the US, calling a room without a window or a closet a bedroom is discouraged when listing properties. Hence, the proliferation of "bonus rooms" in non-traditional floor plans.)

Edited by FiveAcres
typo, phrasing
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I love thread drifts like this one about prolapses because they educate me on things I may have never heard of but will probably be relevant to me or someone close to me later on. I love that we can talk about many topics that are taboo in society. I wish Americans (because this is the only culture I’m exposed to so I don’t know about other places or cultures) could be more open to health-related dialogues and sharing our experiences. 

I’m going to put my money where my mouth is now and say: I had to be catheterized in the hospital. I was terrified, it sounded gross, I’d no idea how they’d do it, I was certain that it was so disgusting a procedure that nobody I knew has ever gone through it and in fact….it was quite easy, not that painful at all and solved numerous problems.

We are all so lucky here to have the language and ability to ask questions and expand our knowledge. Even as we snark, we learn, and ye gods that sounds cheesy and trite but it’s true.

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2 hours ago, anachronistic said:

We are all so lucky here to have the language and ability to ask questions and expand our knowledge. Even as we snark, we learn, and ye gods that sounds cheesy and trite but it’s true.

It is!  I did not give birth vaginally at all (4 c-sections) and I had no idea how common uterine prolapse was or what the treatments were before this thread.  It sounds awful and I don't wish something like that on anyone, including Braggie (though I do hope she has to stop having kids).

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What is striking me about this health situation for Abbie is that it really conflicts with her desperate need to assert that hard does not equal bad. Actually, a lot of chronic and acute health conditions are just bad. You don't have to always find a lesson in bad things. Uterine or bladder prolapse is bad and I have empathy for anyone dealing with that. You don't have to proclaim health conditions as ways God is teaching you something.

Abbie has been incredibly lucky in her life. She had a privileged upbringing and her husband makes good money now, so she's never known the struggles of low-income life. She got pregnant easily and typically whenever she wanted. She's had relatively few pregnancy complications and has been able to maintain activity levels during pregnancy that many cannot. She's been able to breastfeed and get back to pre-pregnancy activity levels seemingly easily. She may say hard does not equal bad, but her hard is in a different range (and mostly a result of her life choices) than many people. 

There is a tendency among people privileged financially and health-wise and fertility-wise to assume that they have done things right and thus deserve their privileged outcomes. There is a confirmation bias that things worked out for you so must be doing things better. 

You see this in women who talk about how they did chiropractic all through pregnancy and as a result they only had 6 hours of labor, 1 push, and no tears or pelvic floor issues. Well, we don't have a control for that anecdote, so it's pretty meaningless. Until the bubble of belief/privilege is popped, they can go on feeling like they did it better and they had control.

Being struck with a health situation that you have very little control over could threaten to pop that bubble. Right now Abbie appears to be sticking with dismissiveness and belief that she can fix this. Maybe the PT will be enough, however it's more likely that she'll be managing this for many years to come and she will have to reconcile that with her current view of herself.

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I have a bit of prolapse. It’s not severe like Abbie. I’ve been told, point blank, by urogynecologists that prolapse worsens as we age and it’s not a matter of “if” surgery with it but “when”. They say to delay the “when” as long as humanly possible because in most cases, the surgery needs to be repeated after a decade or so.

Prolapse, whether Braggie admits it on social media or not, is life altering. There can be pain involved and intense things you must do in order to release enough urine (some have incontinence and some have a severe opposite issue of it) or have normal bowel movements. Urogynecology has been clear that while they support pelvic floor PT, which I’ve been through, that it will not reverse a prolapse but can make one symptom free “asymptomatic” for awhile. 

Edited by luv2laugh
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Ok so after reading all this, how can I help prevent this? Kegels? Will that help? Because I don’t want prolapse. 

Edited by JermajestyDuggar
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33 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Ok so after reading all this, how can I help prevent this? Kegels? Will that help? Because I don’t want prolapse. 

Kegel any time you lift something heavy (including groceries) or cough because both stress the pelvic floor. Anything like pregnancy (the heaviness of it which takes up space in the pelvic floor) and vaginal delivery also increases risk. Do not bear down “hard” pushing to have a bowel movement or pass gas. Michelle Duggar likely has a lot of constipation and laxative advice tips in the newlywed guide she hands out because she was probably informed about prolapse. The act of jumping around (such as in basketball especially or yes, jogging) does stress the pelvic floor muscles because of the body jumping and hitting the ground but since many people jog, it’s usually a calculated risk they take. If you have family members who have prolapse, you’re more prone to it because based on genetics, it increases likelihood. Also, having strong core muscles in the abdomen helps because the body will rely on it more than stressing the pelvic floor muscles. Kegels aren’t recommended for those who have a hypertonic pelvic floor (tight pelvic floor muscles) so it’s best to seek medical advice before attempting it.

Edited by luv2laugh
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1 hour ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Ok so after reading all this, how can I help prevent this? Kegels? Will that help? Because I don’t want prolapse. 

Kegels may help, but I also think Abbie is right in that the abdominal breathing and "zipping up" the core muscles is the best starting place. I really like the Every Mother app. It has various pelvic floor friendly-safe exercises and teaches you all about breathing/movement as well as daily breathing exercises you can do in different positions to strengthen your core. https://every-mother.com/ 

I like how they explain everything very thoroughly and how manageable it is. I also like knowing that the exercises I am doing are not making things worse (a lot of what we typically do in "hard" exercise - crunches, high impact things like jogging, jumprope, etc., anything that causes your abs to bulge/brace are not good for healing your pelvic floor/abs.)

Bonus: it's a good way to care for your body!

Separately, I really agree with what @theotherelisesaid - the "hard is not the same thing as bad" motto is a privileged one. And, I think, reveals the level of denial that fundamentalism requires. I had a milestone the other day so was looking through old journals. Read some from my fundamentalism days, and it made me weep to see how hard I was trying on that endless spiritual treadmill when things were falling apart around me. I don't think all fundies are necessarily in that same space, but it's all that philosophy can offer - when things get hard, try harder and don't complain. Even if someone can sustain that level of dissonance (for me I couldn't bear it for very long before mental health implosion), it's an awful weight.

 

Edited by neuroticcat
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Also, another thing: some people do everything they can and still, cannot prevent prolapse. There are pelvic floor PTs that have prolapse too. A lot of it comes down to genetics and childbirth. But, even if it can’t be  prevented, it’s still important for there to be more education about it so one can try to have proper toileting methods (not bearing down to push etc), and mindful when lifting things, but also, so one can plan for the possibility of if/when they would need surgery and how to navigate that because complications can occur. Discussion of it should be normalized but a lot of doctors won’t have the conversation with their patients. Even men can get prolapse but it’s less common with them. Although, there are men who go to pelvic floor PT.

Edited by luv2laugh
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18 hours ago, SassyPants said:

She has never had a c-section delivery.

You're right. I was confused, because she did a lot of things differently with the twins, but not a c-section.

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Wow... uterine prolapse? How awful! Poor Abby. Not really surprising after so many babies, but Abbie is the last I would have expected to have it as she seems (from what we see on Social Media, so yeah...) fit and sporty. (This makles me wonder/worry about a lot of the others we follow...) 

I am glad she is doing PT... though I do wonder whether that will be enough in her case.... .And I hope she has got a good PT who knows what they are doing (PT here - with just the basic PT knowledge of pelvic floor - my boss is a pelvic floor expert and she wont let me near her gyn-patients with a ten foot pole 😆

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38 minutes ago, Hazelbunny said:

Wow... uterine prolapse? How awful! Poor Abby. Not really surprising after so many babies, but Abbie is the last I would have expected to have it as she seems (from what we see on Social Media, so yeah...) fit and sporty. (This makles me wonder/worry about a lot of the others we follow...) 

I am glad she is doing PT... though I do wonder whether that will be enough in her case.... .And I hope she has got a good PT who knows what they are doing (PT here - with just the basic PT knowledge of pelvic floor - my boss is a pelvic floor expert and she wont let me near her gyn-patients with a ten foot pole 😆

Abbie never specified what type of prolapse it is but only said it was grade 3. Uterine prolapse has been assumed but it could be a different type.

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Today, Abbie marvels at how great their family is at eating out. Not to worry, she humbly says, we had a bad time in a restaurant once when we only had a few kids. But now they've mastered it. She gives many reasons, but here's the golden one, buried so deep I'm not sure if she's able to recognize it:

"We poured the same effort into their younger siblings but noticed that it wasn’t as hard bc they had older examples to follow and to entertain/help them."

Drumroll! Yes! When there is an older person (babysitter/nanny/teen) to help monitor one or two children in public spaces, it is not chaotic. 

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3 minutes ago, neuroticcat said:

Today, Abbie marvels at how great their family is at eating out. Not to worry, she humbly says, we had a bad time in a restaurant once when we only had a few kids. But now they've mastered it. She gives many reasons, but here's the golden one, buried so deep I'm not sure if she's able to recognize it:

"We poured the same effort into their younger siblings but noticed that it wasn’t as hard bc they had older examples to follow and to entertain/help them."

Drumroll! Yes! When there is an older person (babysitter/nanny/teen) to help monitor one or two children in public spaces, it is not chaotic. 

I could have sworn she wrote a huge complaint post once a few years ago talking about a very bad restaurant experience with the kids. I’m talking only 2 or 3 years ago. 

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41 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I could have sworn she wrote a huge complaint post once a few years ago talking about a very bad restaurant experience with the kids. I’m talking only 2 or 3 years ago. 

I mean, it's totally understandable. I think every family have bad restaurant experiences with little kids, because most restaurants are not designed for small children - they are quiet mostly-adult spaces. Children have difficulty sitting still for long periods of time and it's hard to wait for food and enjoy a long meal. Other customers give the stinkeye b/c they want to enjoy their meal without hearing other peoples' kids. I remember years ago it was a HUGE treat for me to go out and "work" at Panera away from my children in a quiet space. One day there were two moms who were letting their children scream and run all over the place. And not just for a minute, for like a 30 minute stretch while they chatted. In retrospect I should've just notified the manager, but I went over and nicely asked if they would mind sitting outside. It's fine to make public spaces a learning opportunity for your children IF you are able to identify when your learning moment has invaded other peoples' opportunity to have an enjoyable experience.

It's interesting to me that Abbie (and the Bates IIRC) are extra pleased if young children can eat out "well." I think it reflects the fundie idealization of "well behaved children." I have many kids spread out and zero desire to eat out in a restaurant with all of them at once. Sure, it's fun to take the older ones out, because they have the maturity for the space. I don't care if my little kids can eat out without a fuss at a very young age. When they're older, they'll be able to and can appreciate it more. For now, no one really wants to do it. My teens are embarrassed by the younger kids (understandably), little kids have more selective appetites and are wiggly, and, for me, if I'm going to spend $$$ I want a long lingering meal with conversation. We sometimes do takeout or a restaurant like Mod Pizza/Chipotle that has loud acoustics and minimal wait time or a local place that can eat outside, but that's about it. 

Edited by neuroticcat
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2 minutes ago, neuroticcat said:

I mean, it's totally understandable. I think every family have bad restaurant experiences with little kids, because most restaurants are not designed for small children - they are quiet mostly-adult spaces. Children have difficulty sitting still for long periods of time and it's hard to wait for food and enjoy a long meal. Other customers give the stinkeye b/c they want to enjoy their meal without hearing other peoples' kids. I remember years ago it was a HUGE treat for me to go out and "work" at Panera away from my children in a quiet space. One day there were two moms who were letting their children scream and run all over the place. And not just for a minute, for like a 30 minute stretch while they chatted. In retrospect I should've just notified the manager, but I went over and nicely asked if they would mind sitting outside. It's fine to make public spaces a learning opportunity for your children IF you are able to identify when your learning moment has invaded other peoples' opportunity to have an enjoyable experience.

It's interesting to me that Abbie (and the Bates IIRC) are extra pleased if young children can eat out "well." I think it reflects the fundie idealization of "well behaved children." I have six kids and zero desire to eat out in a restaurant with all of them at once. Sure, it's fun to take the older ones out, because they have the maturity for the space. I don't care if my little kids can eat out without a fuss at a very young age. When they're older, they'll be able to and can appreciate it more. For now, no one really wants to do it. My teens are embarrassed by the younger kids (understandably), little kids have more selective appetites and are wiggly, and, for me, if I'm going to spend $$$ I want a long lingering meal with conversation. We sometimes do takeout or a restaurant like Mod Pizza/Chipotle that has loud acoustics and minimal wait time or a local place that can eat outside, but that's about it. 

I never took my kids out to eat between the ages of 1-4. I’m not even exaggerating. We did take out and that’s it. Because I knew it would be a hellish experience for me. Why put myself through that when I don’t have to? It’s so much easier to get take out and eat at home or just take the food to the park and eat there and let them act crazy. 

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6 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I never took my kids out to eat between the ages of 1-4. I’m not even exaggerating. We did take out and that’s it. Because I knew it would be a hellish experience for me. Why put myself through that when I don’t have to? It’s so much easier to get take out and eat at home or just take the food to the park and eat there and let them act crazy. 

I completely agree! Takeout plus the park is a winning combo, because the parent gets to enjoy their meal a little bit too. Also, after so many years cooking meals, it's just a huge pill for me to swallow restaurant prices. I mean, it's nice as a special treat for a date or celebration or something, but the $100+ tab for a single meal is never ever going to be worth it to me, even if everyone was well-behaved. I'm going to guess Abbie's family is closer to $200 if they're at a sit-down place.

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17 minutes ago, neuroticcat said:

I completely agree! Takeout plus the park is a winning combo, because the parent gets to enjoy their meal a little bit too. Also, after so many years cooking meals, it's just a huge pill for me to swallow restaurant prices. I mean, it's nice as a special treat for a date or celebration or something, but the $100+ tab for a single meal is never ever going to be worth it to me, even if everyone was well-behaved. I'm going to guess Abbie's family is closer to $200 if they're at a sit-down place.

My kids are grown and really the only time we dine out is when we travel, and on the rare special occasion. As an example we recently celebrated a graduation with a restaurant meal. I’m always thinking how many steaks I could buy at Costco for the $50 dollar one in a restaurant. Usually if we ate dining out it’s something ethnic: Mexican, Indian…

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