M Is for Mama 14: Kids Don't Need Toys When They Have Chores!

[SuperNova]

1 hour ago, luv2laugh said:

Abbie says she has a grade 3 prolapse and is seeing a physical therapist. I wonder if she’s going to not have as many more kids or stop. I will say that I feel for women that deal with that because I’ve heard it can be a very scary and uncomfortable thing to deal with. 

Does this mean uterus or bladder? I tried googling and it gave both results. 

[whitney37354]

29 minutes ago, SuperNova said:

Does this mean uterus or bladder? I tried googling and it gave both results. 

My sister has at least one of the two & is having a hysterectomy next month.  She has tried different treatments, with no help.  She is 46, so she wasn't worried about not having more children.  It started after having her second child 17 months after the first one.  She didn't plan to have them that close together and I wonder if the timing had something to do with it.  She's been dealing with it for 17 years now.

[JermajestyDuggar]

I guess I assumed it was bladder since she did have that chemical pregnancy a couple months ago. But I’m no dr. I guess I just assumed that a grade 3 uterus prolapse means no sex at all to get pregnant. But maybe this is recent. 

[Bluebirdbluebell]

2 hours ago, luv2laugh said:

Abbie says she has a grade 3 prolapse and is seeing a physical therapist. I wonder if she’s going to not have as many more kids or stop. I will say that I feel for women that deal with that because I’ve heard it can be a very scary and uncomfortable thing to deal with. 

I was confused by the fact she is seeing a physical therapist, not surgeon. On the other hand, I would think she would need an official diagnosis from a doctor so maybe the doctor recommended it. 

I google prolapse third degree. According to National Library of Medicine/National Center for Biotechnology Information:

Quote

Third-degree prolapse: The vagina or womb has dropped down so much that up to 1 cm of it is bulging out of the vaginal opening.

Here's a link to the article. Right now it seems like Abby is trying to treat it by doing 

Quote

Pelvic floor exercises to strengthen the muscles.

This is the only treatment that makes sense with going to a physical therapist. 

I think she is still going to try to keep the womb and have more babies. 

[Exchange Atheist]

29 minutes ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

I google prolapse third degree. According to National Library of Medicine/National Center for Biotechnology Information:

Quote

Third-degree prolapse: The vagina or womb has dropped down so much that up to 1 cm of it is bulging out of the vaginal opening.

Here's a link to the article. Right now it seems like Abby is trying to treat it by doing 

I think my uterus just shrivelled up and died. That sounds horrendous. I almost feel sorry for Abby, but then she goes and tries to correct that with nothing but physical therapy, so…

[Bluebirdbluebell]

14 minutes ago, Exchange Atheist said:

I think my uterus just shrivelled up and died. That sounds horrendous. I almost feel sorry for Abby, but then she goes and tries to correct that with nothing but physical therapy, so…

I did find one source that said (link)

Quote

Prolapse up to the third degree may spontaneously resolve. More severe cases may require medical treatment.

So it might be possible to treat it with physical therapy. 

Hopefully this is a first step and if she needs more advanced treatment, she will get it. Other treatments include a pessary and surgery.

Edited August 3, 2022 by Bluebirdbluebell

[neuroticcat]

I only skimmed her stories on this, but it sounds like she is not experiencing prohibitive symptoms and is choosing physical therapy not necessarily to resolve the prolapse but so she can continue with exercising. 

If it's not going to slow down her exercising lifestyle, I can't imagine it affecting her stance on birth control/babies. 

 

 

 

[JermajestyDuggar]

I’m sorry but I don’t even want to imagine sex with that kind of problem. I swear if she turns up pregnant soon then I will crawl into the fetal position. 

Edited August 3, 2022 by JermajestyDuggar

[Giraffe]

27 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I’m sorry but I don’t even want to imagine sex with that kind of problem. I swear if she turns up pregnant son then I will crawl into the fetal position. 

Can you imagine how much more she would hate that kid? She’d shame the newest one more than Shiloh!

 

“This kid is my last, he made sure of that! Omg can you believe god gave me another BOY?!! Hardisnotthesameasbad but wow do I feel so grateful that I can get away from this little trouble maker to teach godly women how to exercise biblically! He pushed out my uterus during his birth! We will make sure he always know he’s the reason he’s the youngest. He did untold amounts of permanent damage to my body and I can’t have any more!! we make sure he knows we still love him unconditionally though even though he’s the reason he won’t have any younger siblings. He won’t even be nice to me and sleep through the night!!! But I’m so grateful that Delia just LOVES getting up with babies in the night!!! So blessed!”

 

I’ve had a shitty day at work and that was “fun” to write even though I’m pretty sure I sprained my eyes rolling them. 

[luv2laugh]

She sounded pretty concerned in her stories saying if you Google it, it is “scary” and “makes you think you will live a life of incontinence and no longer able to squat and have surgeries with mesh” (there’s a lot of horror stories online about mesh). 
 

I think this actually has been hard on her... In her stories, any time women asked her about pelvic floor issues, she’d respond “I don’t have those issues thankfully but I recommend following XYZ”. She seemed to take pride in not having a problem with it. Now, that she’s symptomatic, she might legitimately be scared of it worsening, having incontinence, or needing surgery. She’s also one who has practiced NFP to prevent pregnancies. I think this might be the final straw that actually stops her…

In her story, she responded to someone in a video, saying someone asked her if they do “internal work” and said, “I have to do whatever I can to keep my organs from falling out so you learn to get over it”.

There are some women that actually end up with depression and anxiety over their prolapse problems or even chronic pain. Given her history with trichtilliomania, which is usually an OCD anxiety based issue, and her insecurity about varicose veins (which aren’t as problematic as prolapse could get), I wouldn’t be surprised if she has concerns about it. 

She didn’t say what kind of prolapse she has, but I know of someone who has to frequently self catheterize to urinate….. because she’s afraid of the mesh surgeries and it’s known that when some get the surgery, it usually needs to be repeated.  There are physicians that specialize in re-doing a surgery with mesh that resulted in complications and even ambulance chaser attorneys that for some that have sued over a problem with it. Physical therapy cannot completely reverse a severe prolapse (like grade 3) but can make it asymptomatic. Eventually, though, with age, it tends to worsen over time.

I could see her possibly having another and requesting a C section to minimize complications but, the pregnancy itself (due to weight and gravity) is what can worsen prolapse aside from bearing down during vaginal delivery. There are physicians who will insist on a caesarean if someone has a grade 3 prolapse already. Regardless, she is in for a headache with it and may need to alter her exercise classes because the impact of jumping up and down is harsh on the pelvic floor and not advised. Some women are even told to stop jogging. 

Edited August 4, 2022 by luv2laugh

[luv2laugh]

3 hours ago, Exchange Atheist said:

I think my uterus just shrivelled up and died. That sounds horrendous. I almost feel sorry for Abby, but then she goes and tries to correct that with nothing but physical therapy, so…

It’s very common for women to either be offered physical therapy by their OBGYN or surgeon or encouraged to do it anyway, even if they are planning on a surgery. 
 

I almost feel sorry for her too but then I remind myself of how she treats other women that ask her advice about problems. 

Edited August 4, 2022 by luv2laugh

[neuroticcat]

Her description doesn't sound like she sees it as a serious issue - whether that's because she's minimizing or what, I have no idea. She doesn't seem troubled by it, says she isn't experiencing dysfunction and her goal is to continue doing what she wants so as to live life normally without symptoms. She encourages others to not get freaked out by googling and implies that she is carrying on with her exercise regime.

Not sure if that's out of fear or that it hasn't sunk in or that it genuinely doesn't bother her. She states that she was doing impact jump-kicks up until birth with every pregnancy but the last twins, that she doesn't have diastisis recti, and that the prolapse only became recognizable during ovulation and pull-ups. I hope her try-harder spirituality doesn't hijack the physical healing process she needs. You can't will your body into healing.

 

Edited August 4, 2022 by neuroticcat

[luv2laugh]

44 minutes ago, neuroticcat said:

Her description doesn't sound like she sees it as a serious issue - whether that's because she's minimizing or what, I have no idea. She doesn't seem troubled by it, says she isn't experiencing dysfunction and her goal is to continue doing what she wants so as to live life normally without symptoms. She encourages others to not get freaked out by googling and implies that she is carrying on with her exercise regime.

Not sure if that's out of fear or that it hasn't sunk in or that it genuinely doesn't bother her. She states that she was doing impact jump-kicks up until birth with every pregnancy but the last twins, that she doesn't have diastisis recti, and that the prolapse only became recognizable during ovulation and pull-ups. I hope her try-harder spirituality doesn't hijack the physical healing process she needs. You can't will your body into healing.

 

I think she’s just saying that. She is someone that has a doesn’t like admitting to negatives, weaknesses, “relatable mom problems” unless she can act like a martyr about it for likes. She likes pretending life is perfect on Instagram. 

If anyone googles and looks on forums for women with prolapse, it’s horrifying and people get panicked. 
 

Like I said, I know someone who frequently has to self cath in order to pass urine & can have pain with the bladder filling up and not releasing enough on its own. 
 

Female urogynecology (the surgeons that primarily treat this) & pelvic floor PT have been under recognized for decades and most women in the past were too embarrassed to see a doctor. Progress is being made as more women are willing to speak about these problems. But, even among female friends, many don’t talk about it. Many female PTs enter the field over this because it’s outrageous that many women aren’t told what can happen to them after giving birth & end up unprepared to cope with it. Also, sometimes, the problems aren’t noticeable after birth and may not be apparent until many years after menopause.

Edited August 4, 2022 by luv2laugh

[neuroticcat]

For sure. To be clear, I am not suggesting prolapse is no-big-deal only that her explanations present it as if it is not a big deal and indicate she doesn't intend to change her exercise habits or adjust her lifestyle. My mom has used pessaries, researched the mesh surgeries, and has experienced a lot of embarrassing and painful situations with urination. Prolapse is serious and, given what I've seen my mom go through and my own multiple pregnancies, I do a pelvic floor/diastisis recti repair program daily in the hopes of preventative care. I was glad to see Abbie is doing appropriate core breathing and (for the most part) refraining from offering medical advice to her followers.

I'm just observing that her stories seem to minimize the problem as though it's no big deal. That could be denial, her religious compulsivity, defensiveness around the quiverfull mentality, who knows? I do hope she does continue to seek adequate care, especially given her age.

[anachronistic]

I’ve no idea what her insurance is, though I assume it’s through Sean’s work, but many require PT first for 95% of stuff, no matter how bad it is. I’ve had to do PT before 2 of my surgeries, the only one that was approved right away was when I couldn’t move my right leg and it stopped reacting to the little hammer thingie. So she may want surgery now but is required to do PT and must martyr herself about it first because, you know, Braggie.

[SassyPants]

6 hours ago, anachronistic said:

I’ve no idea what her insurance is, though I assume it’s through Sean’s work, but many require PT first for 95% of stuff, no matter how bad it is. I’ve had to do PT before 2 of my surgeries, the only one that was approved right away was when I couldn’t move my right leg and it stopped reacting to the little hammer thingie. So she may want surgery now but is required to do PT and must martyr herself about it first because, you know, Braggie.

They don’t have traditional Healthcare insurance. They use a Christian ministry medical outfit. This is why they primarily don’t get routine medical care for their kids, including vaccines, and why she prefers midwives and home births. Shaun’s brother, a DDS, provides their dental care. I doubt they pay full boat.

TBH, a hysterectomy would not surprise or bother me. They have used and abused her body. Sometimes dumb choices lead to difficult consequences. Plus, she’s a horrid parent-

[luv2laugh]

On 8/3/2022 at 1:41 PM, SuperNova said:

Does this mean uterus or bladder? I tried googling and it gave both results. 

It could be either. People can have their bladder, uterus, or even their rectum and small bowel prolapse…. It can be quite serious and a major “headache”. 

Edited August 4, 2022 by luv2laugh

[SassyPants]

3 minutes ago, luv2laugh said:

It could be either. People can have their bladder, uterus, or even their rectum and lower intestines prolapse….

With All those pregnancies, large babies, multiples and vag deliveries, her bladder, uterus and rectum have to be a mess.

And she recently miscarried for at least the second time. So that would be  8 full pregnancies, 2 miscarriages, 10 vaginal births. So during all this she they decided to get pregnant again?

They are lunatics-

 

 

Edited August 4, 2022 by SassyPants

[luv2laugh]

7 hours ago, anachronistic said:

I’ve no idea what her insurance is, though I assume it’s through Sean’s work, but many require PT first for 95% of stuff, no matter how bad it is. I’ve had to do PT before 2 of my surgeries, the only one that was approved right away was when I couldn’t move my right leg and it stopped reacting to the little hammer thingie. So she may want surgery now but is required to do PT and must martyr herself about it first because, you know, Braggie.

From her story, I get a sense she’s trying to avoid a surgery but desperate to get back to normal & prevent it worsening. I believe she is concerned about it getting worse. After all, she used a euphemism like “I got over the internal work because I can’t have my organs falling out” and mentioned the horror online “that’ll have you think you’ll live a life of incontinence”. But, she may be overestimating what PT is able to do…

2 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

With All those pregnancies, large babies, multiples and vag deliveries, her bladder, uterus and rectum have to be a mess-

It makes me almost fall over to think of how Michelle Duggar and Kelly Bates are doing… I think Michelle might be at the point of wearing support garments to hold the prolapses inside.

Edited August 4, 2022 by luv2laugh

[JermajestyDuggar]

God this thread has made me physically shudder more than once now. 😬

[luv2laugh]

15 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

God this thread has made me physically shudder more than once now. 😬

If you thought that was bad… look at this. I can’t imagine how uncomfortable wearing a belt contraption device like that would be… 

https://www.femicushion.com/pages/choosing-the-best-prolapse-support-garment-femicushion-uk

Wow, that site even listed a prolapse I didn’t know existed, “vaginal vault prolapse”.

Again, I could see her maybe taking a chance on another and perhaps a C section but, she’s vocal about wives being submissive and Shaun may pull the plug on it because if she got worse and needed surgery, and had a complicated recovery, they’d need extra help for awhile and repeat surgeries as one ages are very common... She is already stage 3 and the final stage is stage 4.

Don’t Google it…

If she sees this post (she reads here), I recommend that she consult with a urogynecologist before getting pregnant again to explore options to see if maybe they can minimize it getting worse during labor.

Edited August 4, 2022 by luv2laugh

[Bluebirdbluebell]

1 hour ago, luv2laugh said:

It could be either. People can have their bladder, uterus, or even their rectum and small bowel prolapse…. It can be quite serious and a major “headache”. 

When I googled 3rd degree prolapse, it came up mostly uterine so that's what I think it is. 

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

They don’t have traditional Healthcare insurance. They use a Christian ministry medical outfit. This is why they primarily don’t get routine medical care for their kids, including vaccines, and why she prefers midwives and home births. Shaun’s brother, a DDS, provides their dental care. I doubt they pay full boat.

TBH, a hysterectomy would not surprise or bother me. They have used and abused her body. Sometimes dumb choices lead to difficult consequences. Plus, she’s a horrid parent-

We don't know that she needs a hysterectomy. It wouldn't bother me, but it's unclear the problem is that bad. I wouldn't count on her needing surgery.

I think she had a c-section with her latest twins and I'm not sure it was her first.

1 hour ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

God this thread has made me physically shudder more than once now. 😬

This thread is starting to get dehumanizing about an issue that affects more women than you would think. Different issues including menstruation, prolapse, etc., women's health issues tend to get the "ewww, gross" treatment and that leads to stigma, shame, etc. I would be unsurprised if women on FJ were having the same issues as Abby. 

[luv2laugh]

2 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Shaun’s brother, a DDS, provides their dental care. I doubt they pay full boat.

When she had the boy twins see a dentist for something last year, I noticed they did not take them to Shaun’s brother, who is a dentist. I’m actually not sure if they see him. I’ve kind of thought they have beef with his brother and family since they’re never mentioned and never seen interacting very much. 

55 minutes ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

This thread is starting to get dehumanizing about an issue that affects more women than you would think. Different issues including menstruation, prolapse, etc., women's health issues tend to get the "ewww, gross" treatment and that leads to stigma, shame, etc. I would be unsurprised if women on FJ were having the same issues as Abby. 

I haven’t seen anyone express anything like “ewww gross”. Regarding my comments, I’ve mentioned how urogynecology and pelvic floor PT used to receive little attention but how progress has been made. Some posters have mentioned this is serious, along with myself, especially given Abbie’s no birth control beliefs and how she appears to want to avoid a surgery involving mesh. I think posters who’ve mentioned feeling disturbed is different than eww gross dehumanization. I think that it’s normal for females to want to prevent prolapse or prevent it from worsening without dehumanizing one having the condition because as I’ve said, it can cause serious health problems that one has to live with everyday. In fact, I’d argue that people ignoring the seriousness of prolapse and avoiding talk of it is part of the problem. Yes, prolapse affects many women, young women and old women alike, as well as women who’ve had well under 10 kids, and that’s why people should be more educated about how to manage it. 

Edited August 4, 2022 by luv2laugh

[JermajestyDuggar]

1 hour ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

When I googled 3rd degree prolapse, it came up mostly uterine so that's what I think it is. 

We don't know that she needs a hysterectomy. It wouldn't bother me, but it's unclear the problem is that bad. I wouldn't count on her needing surgery.

I think she had a c-section with her latest twins and I'm not sure it was her first.

This thread is starting to get dehumanizing about an issue that affects more women than you would think. Different issues including menstruation, prolapse, etc., women's health issues tend to get the "ewww, gross" treatment and that leads to stigma, shame, etc. I would be unsurprised if women on FJ were having the same issues as Abby. 

I shudder out of empathy for anyone has gone through this. Even someone as horrible as Braggie. Having empathy for someone like her is the opposite of dehumanizing. 

[SassyPants]

3 hours ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

When I googled 3rd degree prolapse, it came up mostly uterine so that's what I think it is. 

We don't know that she needs a hysterectomy. It wouldn't bother me, but it's unclear the problem is that bad. I wouldn't count on her needing surgery.

I think she had a c-section with her latest twins and I'm not sure it was her first.

This thread is starting to get dehumanizing about an issue that affects more women than you would think. Different issues including menstruation, prolapse, etc., women's health issues tend to get the "ewww, gross" treatment and that leads to stigma, shame, etc. I would be unsurprised if women on FJ were having the same issues as Abby. 

She has never had a c-section delivery.