M Is for Mama 14: Kids Don't Need Toys When They Have Chores!

[JermajestyDuggar]

28 minutes ago, Red Hair, Black Dress said:

Shaun never loses his cool because Shaun is not engaged with his children (nor probably his spouse), thus he is never annoyed by them.

Shaun never loses his cool because he travels so much he has very limited interaction with his children and his spouse (except date night dinners), thus he is never annoyed by them.

Shaun never loses his cool because his vacations alone with Braggie are work trips and he's otherwise occupied 95+% of the time, thus he is never annoyed by her.

 

I agree. My husband is very laid back. It takes a lot to get him upset. But our children have absolutely gotten him upset. Because my husband parents. He works from home and rarely does business trips. He sees our kids all the damn time. He plays with them, interacts with them, gets them to do things they don’t want to do. And he absolutely gets frustrated. Much less than me of course. It’s easier to get me bothered. But if my husband was mentally checked out and on constant trip, my kids would probably have no idea daddy could ever raise his voice. 

[neuroticcat]

I would like to know how exactly our culture "glorifies" husband bashing? This is more of the straw man that fundamentalism thrives on. 

I think *a lot* gets lumped in to "no husband bashing" in conservative circles. Kind of like: no complaining. When you add shame for thinking hard=bad, then (surprise, surprise) expectation is for women (and everyone!) to shut up, stuff their feelings, and not speak up about bad behavior.

What, exactly, are women who are struggling, have abusive husbands - or, even, just have an argument with their husband? Don't know how to connect? Have everyday annoyances? - supposed to do? Yes, yes, they can pray about it, which leaves them in an echo chamber filled with messages like the one Abbie platforms. 

And what does saying one thing you like about your spouse show about "biblical" marriage? Do nonChristian spouses have trouble answering this question? 

This sort of thing drives me nuts for so many reasons, not least b/c it's like a commercials - it's not the words that matter so much as the sense it conveys. This one is a commercial for fundamentalism: we do it right, they do it wrong, our marriages are good, follow me so you can be better, too.

[luv2laugh]

This is not OK…

[JermajestyDuggar]

7 minutes ago, luv2laugh said:

This is not OK…

I just don’t understand how any typical mom would think this is ok. I don’t know a single mom friend that would think this is fine. I know fundies live in bubbles. But there have to be at least a few moms on her Instagram that think this is fucked up. I have a son the age of her twins. I am so glad to let him be a kid. I can’t imagine giving him the responsibility of running a house of 10 kids. Forcing your children to take on adult responsibilities won’t make them better humans. It will just make them resentful when they realize they were used. 

[neuroticcat]

Ugh. Was just reading a thread on false humility from Dr. Valerie Hobbs earlier today (see below). Abbie is telling on herself with her J/K.

This is what she really believes - kids over 5 don't need much supervision. And the teenagers can handle everyone. Making it a joke lends likability and credibility to negligent behavior.

From Dr. Hobbs: "When self-deference in the context of objectionable behaviour is emphasized, exaggerated and/or made into a joke, leading an audience to dismiss the objectionable behaviour, even laugh about it. So, let’s say a person talks about binning all their kids’ Christmas presents b/c they didn’t tidy their room when told. Audience reacts with some surprise. Person: Oh yeah, I’m so terrible, aren’t I? [laugh emoji]Or say someone sends a harassing e-mail and makes a joke at the end about it hoping it is received well rather than coming across like "some stalker e-mail haha.I once worked with a Christian leader who used this tactic. He was often self-deferential about his selfish & arrogant ways of talking, interacting & even writing and he tried to guide me to chuckle with him about it. Me: Hahaha yeah you did waste hours of my time just now. Hilarious how you are so self centred and entitled to act like my time and expertise & energy mean less than yours. Heehee I'm dying here.Take it from a linguist who often studies texts written by violent people. Self-deference *in the context of objectionable behaviour* is a HELPFUL TELL. Repeat after me: "Duly noted. Thanks for telling on yourself, jackass."

[Red Hair, Black Dress]

9 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

It will just make them resentful when they realize they were used. 

In my experience of friends who were forced into this -- it will usually make then child free.

As a girlfriend put it -- 'I spent my tween and teenage years being a mother to 7 siblings and running the house. Been there, done that, I don't ever want to do it again, Once was enough.'

[JermajestyDuggar]

5 minutes ago, neuroticcat said:

Ugh. Was just reading a thread on false humility from Dr. Valerie Hobbs earlier today (see below). Abbie is telling on herself with her J/K.

This is what she really believes - kids over 5 don't need much supervision. And the teenagers can handle everyone. Making it a joke lends likability and credibility to negligent behavior.

From Dr. Hobbs: "When self-deference in the context of objectionable behaviour is emphasized, exaggerated and/or made into a joke, leading an audience to dismiss the objectionable behaviour, even laugh about it. So, let’s say a person talks about binning all their kids’ Christmas presents b/c they didn’t tidy their room when told. Audience reacts with some surprise. Person: Oh yeah, I’m so terrible, aren’t I? [laugh emoji]Or say someone sends a harassing e-mail and makes a joke at the end about it hoping it is received well rather than coming across like "some stalker e-mail haha.I once worked with a Christian leader who used this tactic. He was often self-deferential about his selfish & arrogant ways of talking, interacting & even writing and he tried to guide me to chuckle with him about it. Me: Hahaha yeah you did waste hours of my time just now. Hilarious how you are so self centred and entitled to act like my time and expertise & energy mean less than yours. Heehee I'm dying here.Take it from a linguist who often studies texts written by violent people. Self-deference *in the context of objectionable behaviour* is a HELPFUL TELL. Repeat after me: "Duly noted. Thanks for telling on yourself, jackass."

She’s also letting us all know why she hates all children under 5. That is the age when she starts complaining about them much less. Because before 5, she has to actually take care of them. And she hates having to take care of her kids. 

[SuperNova]

9 minutes ago, neuroticcat said:

Ugh. Was just reading a thread on false humility from Dr. Valerie Hobbs earlier today (see below). Abbie is telling on herself with her J/K.

This is what she really believes - kids over 5 don't need much supervision. And the teenagers can handle everyone. Making it a joke lends likability and credibility to negligent behavior.

From Dr. Hobbs: "When self-deference in the context of objectionable behaviour is emphasized, exaggerated and/or made into a joke, leading an audience to dismiss the objectionable behaviour, even laugh about it. So, let’s say a person talks about binning all their kids’ Christmas presents b/c they didn’t tidy their room when told. Audience reacts with some surprise. Person: Oh yeah, I’m so terrible, aren’t I? [laugh emoji]Or say someone sends a harassing e-mail and makes a joke at the end about it hoping it is received well rather than coming across like "some stalker e-mail haha.I once worked with a Christian leader who used this tactic. He was often self-deferential about his selfish & arrogant ways of talking, interacting & even writing and he tried to guide me to chuckle with him about it. Me: Hahaha yeah you did waste hours of my time just now. Hilarious how you are so self centred and entitled to act like my time and expertise & energy mean less than yours. Heehee I'm dying here.Take it from a linguist who often studies texts written by violent people. Self-deference *in the context of objectionable behaviour* is a HELPFUL TELL. Repeat after me: "Duly noted. Thanks for telling on yourself, jackass."

That's a good take on Abbie. I've also heard it called Schrodinger's Douchebag. You say something horrible as a semi-joke until you can read the room. If your assholery is accepted you can share more, if it's not you can just say, can't you take a joke? Either way, not a good look at all. 

[Cults-r-us]

On 9/20/2022 at 12:16 PM, JermajestyDuggar said:

I rarely partake in husband bashing. And my friends and I might complain a little bit. But it’s not some big bash fest. My one friend does bash her ex. But that’s expected. Braggie always seems so disconnected. She thinks mainstream means all moms hate their kids and cope with drinking, all wives bash their husbands continually, and all moms not parenting exactly like her are mediocre. She lives in such a strange made up world.

You have to remember poor Braggie has no authentic relationships as a frame of reference when analyzing other people's relationships, because she, herself, has no authenticity. Maybe she is a hair on the spectrum (besides her narcissistic personality disorder)? She is in no way able to comprehend normal interpersonal relationships.

[JermajestyDuggar]

9 hours ago, Cults-r-us said:

You have to remember poor Braggie has no authentic relationships as a frame of reference when analyzing other people's relationships, because she, herself, has no authenticity. Maybe she is a hair on the spectrum (besides her narcissistic personality disorder)? She is in no way able to comprehend normal interpersonal relationships.

I don’t think she’s on the spectrum. I think her social issues are due to being isolated and propped up throughout childhood. She did not have the typical social life and doesn’t know how to have close friends. 

[anachronistic]

Yeah, no to her being on the spectrum. Many people think being autistic is being self centered but I’ve found that to be the opposite. Most autistic people are incredibly focused on others and overextend ourselves loving and caring for others. She’s a spoiled brat baby of a narcissist.

[Red Hair, Black Dress]

I'd love to know how she gets along with her brother.

Braggie seems to be her mother's golden child, her darling -- spoiled, entitled, and supported/ enabked in everything

[JermajestyDuggar]

4 minutes ago, Red Hair, Black Dress said:

I'd love to know how she gets along with her brother.

Braggie seems to be her mother's golden child, her darling -- spoiled, entitled, and supported/ enabked in everything

It’s possible he’s ok with making his own life without the meddling of his mother. Some people do like some space between themselves and their parents. He is a dentist so I imagine he has money to provide for his children. He probably hires a nanny or babysitter instead of relying on his mother all the time. 

[theotherelise]

Abbie answered a question yesterday about parentification that is a real doozy.

 

I love the way she acts like she's never heard of this before but then has huge opinions about how people use it the wrong way. She loves a straw man so much. No one is saying kids setting the table or having chores is parentification. Your children being in charge of dressing toddlers for a vacation outing to a cold area and being frustrated that they didn't do it appropriately without ever checking on it yourself before you get out of the vehicle is parentification.

Also, compulsory babysitting of your younger siblings isn't your family working together. It's the older child working for the family while you do fun things. That is not happening here because of lack of access to childcare and need of parent to work for the family to eat and have housing. Abbie literally just said that the older kids have to babysit every single week for date night. We've definitely seen evidence in the past of the older kids being the only ones home in the mornings when Shaun and Abbie go to the gym at the same time. 

 

Edited September 22, 2022 by theotherelise

[JermajestyDuggar]

12 minutes ago, theotherelise said:

Abbie answered a question yesterday about parentification that is a real doozy.

 

I love the way she acts like she's never heard of this before but then has huge opinions about how people use it the wrong way. She loves a straw man so much. No one is saying kids setting the table or having chores is parentification. Your children being in charge of dressing toddlers for a vacation outing to a cold area and being frustrated that they didn't do it appropriately without ever checking on it yourself before you get out of the vehicle is parentification.

Also, compulsory babysitting of your younger siblings isn't your family working together. It's the older child working for the family while you do fun things. That is not happening here because of lack of access to childcare and need of parent to work for the family to eat and have housing. Abbie literally just said that the older kids have to babysit every single week for date night. We've definitely seen evidence in the past of the older kids being the only ones home in the mornings when Shaun and Abbie go to the gym at the same time. 

 

Says the woman who just posted her 9 year olds could easily run a household of 10 kids. She is like Zoo. She lives in a world of denial. Of course she isn’t parentifying her children! She’s in charge! Not her kids! 🙄

[SassyPants]

16 minutes ago, theotherelise said:

Abbie answered a question yesterday about parentification that is a real doozy.

 

I love the way she acts like she's never heard of this before but then has huge opinions about how people use it the wrong way. She loves a straw man so much. No one is saying kids setting the table or having chores is parentification. Your children being in charge of dressing toddlers for a vacation outing to a cold area and being frustrated that they didn't do it appropriately without ever checking on it yourself before you get out of the vehicle is parentification.

Also, compulsory babysitting of your younger siblings isn't your family working together. It's the older child working for the family while you do fun things. That is not happening here because of lack of access to childcare and need of parent to work for the family to eat and have housing. Abbie literally just said that the older kids have to babysit every single week for date night. We've definitely seen evidence in the past of the older kids being the only ones home in the mornings when Shaun and Abbie go to the gym at the same time. 

 

Never have I seen a better example of “the woman doth protest too much” in full and living color!

[luv2laugh]

When her kids grow up, I think they’re going to distance themselves from her. As adults, they’ll eventually learn that she used them, recognize she has narcissistic traits, & resent it.

This woman has admitted she struggles with empathy and Shaun is checked out + MIA travelling half the time.  Her teenage sons parent more than Shaun does. 
 

Braggie brags about her accomplishments despite having 10 kids in her book & on Instagram yet, she wouldn’t be able to do it if she didn’t “parentify” her kids & her mother wasn’t there... She wrote a post about families needing a husband to lead the home in order to be functional (and DELETED it when she started getting backlash) yet, that’s NOT her set up— what a HYPOCRITE! Her mom helps and her teenage sons take on surrogate “dad” roles! She’s admitted Ezra is “the third parent”. 

Edited September 22, 2022 by luv2laugh

[SassyPants]

28 minutes ago, luv2laugh said:

When her kids grow up, I think they’re going to distance themselves from her. As adults, they’ll eventually learn that she used them, recognize she has narcissistic traits, & resent it.

This woman has admitted she struggles with empathy and Shaun is checked out + MIA travelling half the time.  Her teenage sons parent more than Shaun does. 
 

Braggie brags about her accomplishments despite having 10 kids in her book & on Instagram yet, she wouldn’t be able to do it if she didn’t “parentify” her kids & her mother wasn’t there... She wrote a post about families needing a husband to lead the home in order to be functional (and DELETED it when she started getting backlash) yet, that’s NOT her set up— what a HYPOCRITE! Her mom helps and her teenage sons take on surrogate “dad” roles! She’s admitted Ezra is “the third parent”. 

I don’t think she will mind one bit that her adult offspring distance themselves. I’ve always believed that she would never be the grandmother her own mother role models. There is no way in hell she’ll be babysitting, schooling, grand parenting a billion grandkids, no way. She is way too Abbie centered. And I would not be shocked if the H’s eventually separate. 

AND would you want her to be that person in your kids’ lives?

[JermajestyDuggar]

9 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

I don’t think she will mind one bit that her adult offspring distance themselves. I’ve always believed that she would never be the grandmother her own mother role models. There is no way in hell she’ll be babysitting, schooling, grand parenting a billion grandkids, no way. She is way too Abbie centered. And I would not be shocked if the H’s eventually separate. 

AND would you want her to be that person in your kids’ lives?

I think it could be a mix. Some kids stick around and kiss mama’s ass while others move away and rarely call or visit. She will want cute pictures of her grandkids. But after she gets those pictures, she will want them out from under her feet. 

[neuroticcat]

"We aren't parentifying our kids, because what we do is not parentification" is quite the argument. 

Also: we are doing it right thought, and we have convictions. Our kids are happy to help (in families where from early ages they are trained to cheerfully obey). Are you kidding me? 

The thing is, Abbie knows full well what parentification is b/c she has a formulated argument against being criticized for it.  She's probably often criticized for it - and probably got pushback on the post a few slides before about five year olds helping out - but this question was phrased in a conveniently neutral enough way she could answer it to spotlight her ideology. The receipt always comes due. 

My father was the eldest of six and it was quite normal for him to be in charge of everyone at age eleven so his parents could have their weekly bridge night and work or whatever. TBH, I don't think he resents that - it could be generational - b/c he was allowed autonomy in other ways - his own job outside the home, school, sports, and independence. I think what's especially toxic about parentifying kids in fundamentalist families is that it combines with isolation and the squelching of all agency. The real question is: can a child say no? Do they have agency? Are they paid for their labor? 

 

[SassyPants]

58 minutes ago, neuroticcat said:

"We aren't parentifying our kids, because what we do is not parentification" is quite the argument. 

Also: we are doing it right thought, and we have convictions. Our kids are happy to help (in families where from early ages they are trained to cheerfully obey). Are you kidding me? 

The thing is, Abbie knows full well what parentification is b/c she has a formulated argument against being criticized for it.  She's probably often criticized for it - and probably got pushback on the post a few slides before about five year olds helping out - but this question was phrased in a conveniently neutral enough way she could answer it to spotlight her ideology. The receipt always comes due. 

My father was the eldest of six and it was quite normal for him to be in charge of everyone at age eleven so his parents could have their weekly bridge night and work or whatever. TBH, I don't think he resents that - it could be generational - b/c he was allowed autonomy in other ways - his own job outside the home, school, sports, and independence. I think what's especially toxic about parentifying kids in fundamentalist families is that it combines with isolation and the squelching of all agency. The real question is: can a child say no? Do they have agency? Are they paid for their labor? 

 

Yes, treating 7 year olds as adults to to help the parents out be stand in parents, yet treating those same kids as now 15, 20 or 30 YOs like they are 2 YOs in terms of age appropriate freedoms. It is so F’d up.

[MomKB]

3 hours ago, theotherelise said:

I love the way she acts like she's never heard of this before but then has huge opinions about how people use it the wrong way. She loves a straw man so much. No one is saying kids setting the table or having chores is parentification. Your children being in charge of dressing toddlers for a vacation outing to a cold area and being frustrated that they didn't do it appropriately without ever checking on it yourself before you get out of the vehicle is parentification.

Also, compulsory babysitting of your younger siblings isn't your family working together. It's the older child working for the family while you do fun things. That is not happening here because of lack of access to childcare and need of parent to work for the family to eat and have housing. Abbie literally just said that the older kids have to babysit every single week for date night. We've definitely seen evidence in the past of the older kids being the only ones home in the mornings when Shaun and Abbie go to the gym at the same time. 

Not only that, but the children also must have been in charge of putting the toddlers into their carseats, presumably without adult supervision. Abby didn't notice their outfits till she was taking the kids out of the car. That incident was the very definition of parentification.

[Mrs Ms]

My oldest was almost 9 when my youngest was born and 4 years later still has no clue how to do a 3point/5point harness. The closest I came to fobbing off my parenting was asking if the clips were all still in once the toddler could fiddle with the buckle. If undone, I pulled over and sorted it myself. 
Now at 13 he could take care of himself for 2 days. Not the household or his siblings. 

My partner was the oldest male in a large family. ALL the kids were taught how to cook/bake/clean/launder and had to supervise the younger ones if needed. None of them were parentified. It is possible, just involves (in his family’s case) a very present and engaged mother. So impossible for Braggie. 

[SuperNova]

4 hours ago, theotherelise said:

Abbie answered a question yesterday about parentification that is a real doozy.

 

I love the way she acts like she's never heard of this before but then has huge opinions about how people use it the wrong way. She loves a straw man so much. No one is saying kids setting the table or having chores is parentification. Your children being in charge of dressing toddlers for a vacation outing to a cold area and being frustrated that they didn't do it appropriately without ever checking on it yourself before you get out of the vehicle is parentification.

Also, compulsory babysitting of your younger siblings isn't your family working together. It's the older child working for the family while you do fun things. That is not happening here because of lack of access to childcare and need of parent to work for the family to eat and have housing. Abbie literally just said that the older kids have to babysit every single week for date night. We've definitely seen evidence in the past of the older kids being the only ones home in the mornings when Shaun and Abbie go to the gym at the same time. 

 

"I had to look this up"

Bitch, no you didn't. She's telling on herself here. There's not a snowballs chance that she's never heard the term parentification. 

"I really feel for kids who genuinely end up in those scenarios and am very opposed to it."

What would make it genuine? This feels a bit like a no true Scotsman fallacy. Abbie is one of those people who probably thinks that parentification only happens in low income households where mothers work outside the home. She's most likely picturing brown* people. It doesn't happen in white middle class homes decorated with Anthropologie.

"So, in short, "parentification" = bad

Working together as a team and letting your children know what valuable team members they are = good. "

Everything in this woman's life boils down to a simple dichotomy. Parentification is bad but if you add in the caveat of telling them they're valuable team members it's fine. Calling your kids valuable team members sounds cold to me. They should have a plastic name tag clipped to the front of their shirt as soon as they're old enough to stir a pot. Maybe hand out employee of the month awards or offer your kids paid time off and sick leave. We already know that their insurance plan is garbage.  

*No dig at brown people. I'm a brown person.

[neuroticcat]

Yeah, it would be interesting to hear her describe her view of parentification in action. It probably involves similar practices without her "conviction" ideology. What makes it right, as always, is the firm belief that God is behind their opinions.