Remnant Fellowship 23: Elizabeth's Phoning It & Michael Did a Runner. Literally.

[Hane]

3 hours ago, throwaway9988 said:

I had no idea that catholic and protestant crucifixes are different! The church used in this movie was fairly quaint. But in terms of other movies, I do think some Catholic churches look really dramatic and occult, which probably leads to them being featured in films more often.  I mean those stone cathedrals in LA/NYC/Europe have been in like dozens and dozens of movies. 

People often misinterpret the word “crucifix.” It means “a cross with the body of Jesus affixed to it.” A cross without a “corpus” is just that: a cross, not a crucifix.

[treemom]

19 hours ago, 7Freedom said:

Oh, sorry...I didn't mean for my comment to come off that way. Total anorexia cult. So much of that was glossed over in the movie...three bite bs and such. The docuseries covered the anorexia side of things much better. I personally remember churches booting RF out after the Trinity denial but not understanding how or why Her Highness came to the conclusion the Trinity did not exist. I was further blown away that more of her parishioners stayed and agreed with her...but when you mix starvation and mind control...anything is possible!

Oh it was less about your specific comment, and more about the general feel that I get whenever people bring up the trinity.  Like of all the things those churches should have been worried about and it was the trinity that made them go, oh this is just too far?

[Concerned]

Disclaimer: I am certainly NOT going to try to explain the Holy Trinity!

However, the belief of the trinity is nearly as old as the crucifixion of Christ. It dates back almost two thousand years. It IS one of the main foundational doctrines of Christianity established by the early church fathers (Nicene Creed 325AD). That is why the the churches rejected Gwen Shamblin once they realized that she didn't believe in the Holy Trinity. It was a clear and blatant sign that something was wrong with Gwen's teachings. Gwen grew up in the Church of Christ, who believe in the Trinity, but do not use the words "Trinity" or "Trinitarian" because it is not a word that can be found in the Bible.

However, it is my understanding that her view of the Trinity is quite wayward even from her personal church roots. The three persons of the Holy Trinity are completely EQUAL. Gwen seemed to focus on GOD, the Father, and appeared to place Jesus, the Son, beneath the Father in power and authority. However, in the Bible, Father God is constantly lifting up His Son to be glorified, giving Jesus all authority.

It seems to me as if Gwen needed to prove the "authority chain" doctrine that she taught in her church to theoretically create absolute "order" among the members. To establish the doctrine (and to establish herself, as the authority of her "profound doctrines"), she needed to break the persons of the Trinity down into a chain of command. She needed to make it seem as if Jesus and Holy Spirit "answer" to GOD instead of teaching that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit work in perfect harmony together. 

I attended several Remnant services with my family members in the past. From those visits, the church seemed "odd" in some of its practices, but not crazy. Gwen seemed to teaching Biblical principles from surface level, though her speech was almost monotone, boring and rambling. There certainly wasn't much substance (or "meat") to her messages. They didn't seem to have concrete focus, but felt rather like a group of incoherent thoughts that were strewn together into one "message." 

That being said, I can easily see how a Christian person who is vulnerable, desperate to lose weight and to feel loved, has little-to-no Bible knowledge, and doesn't understand foundational Christian doctrines could be drawn and deceived into believing Gwen's teachings. Even church leaders who wanted to help their congregation get healthier by losing weight would not notice Gwen's teachings as being problematic at first. That is the very definition of "deception." It "creeps" in little by little until a person is completely drawn to believe the "lie." I don't think people got a true understanding of how twisted Gwen's teachings were until they were in a little deeper - going to the conferences and obviously getting involved in Remnant Fellowship. For me, I was skeptical of my family's involvement in Remnant, but I stayed open-minded until little things started to add up, telling me that something was definitely not right.

My family could never "explain" to me Gwen's doctrine of the Trinity because they didn't try to figure it out - they just heard it explained to them by leaders, and they decided that it "sounded right" - it "made sense" to them, and so they accepted it as "truth." However, from personally reading one of the older Remnant websites, I could clearly see how Gwen "twisted" scripture to explain her doctrines.

I also noticed how she was obsessed with God's "beauty and creation," (which is not a bad thing) except for the way she used it. She interpreted God's beauty as a thing that was perfect (and it is,) but she wanted everything about her church and the members to also be "perfect" (which is impossible because of our humanity.) That's why all the weddings had to have their colors "approved" by Gwen. That's the reason for all the picturesque weddings. There's nothing wrong with the desire to do everything with excellence, reflecting the beauty of God. However, the beauty she strived for wasn't an expression of God, but rather "Gwen's" perception and definition of beauty. 

It's all so sad, so twisted - complete deception. I'm still trying to understand how my family have not seen the red flags yet (ESPECIALLY after the big divorce!) Even on my few visits to Remnant, I heard Gwen teach against divorce and how to be a good husband/wife even when your spouse didn't go to church with you. Gwen got so caught up, focusing on the wrong things, that I believe she was clearly deceived herself.

[ManyGoats]

Gwen was and Remnant is extremely legalistic. They actually disdain the concept of grace, completely ignoring what the Bible says about it. What's puzzling to me is that anyone who tries to be perfect quickly discovers how impossible that is. And, yet, they all seem to believe that they are near-perfect and that Gwen was perfect and now Elizabeth is perfect.

[Concerned]

"Distains" grace? Wow! That's a strong statement and a scary thought! Does that mean that she disdained Jesus Christ as well? I always heard her mention "God," but did she ever talk about Jesus? Grace and Jesus go hand in hand.

I know that when Gwen first started Remnant, she was frustrated with the false grace message that basically justified Christians to live in sin. So she abandoned grace altogether?

It is also my understanding that the Church of Christ is typically a "legalistic" denomination. That part of her background must have been hardwired into her from a young age. I guess she liked it since legalism creates a sense of control. However, she rebelled against some of the beliefs of the Church of Christ such as not allowing musical instruments in church and not allowing women to preach. 

As for the perfection thing - I don't understand it either. I mean, Christians are on a lifelong journey to become more like Christ, but Jesus was the only perfect person who ever lived and who will ever be. If Gwen/Elizabeth was/is seen as "perfect," does the mean that they are seen as Jesus?

None of it makes sense. Grace is necessary to help us to become more like Jesus. Without grace, there is no hope. If Gwen didn't believe in grace then how did she explain the method by which a person could reach perfection? 

My family members are still overweight after being at Remnant for several years. How do they get away with that? Having excess weight sure isn't "perfect" in Gwen's eyes. At some point did Gwen "ease up" on her strict attempt to make everyone super skinny? Did she begin to value the larger numbers of members over the need to have every single one of them perfectly skinny?

What is "the message" that Gwen taught and that Elizabeth is trying to preserve for future generations? It seems like a hodge podge of ideas that are certainly NOT Biblical.

Does anyone have answers to any of my questions? 

[throwaway9988]

  

On 2/22/2023 at 10:19 PM, Concerned said:

I know that when Gwen first started Remnant, she was frustrated with the false grace message that basically justified Christians to live in sin. 

Gwen taught that it is "false grace" to believe that it is okay to keep sinning because Jesus died for our sins. She said that people who continue their lives of purposeful sin (including overeating) after supposedly coming to Jesus will actually go to hell. Gwen taught that grace is that Jesus died for the sins of those who didn’t know any better, but now Jesus has shown us how to live a sinless life of perfect obedience to God’s will so that we can be worthy to join them in heaven. That is to say, grace is that now that we have heard the truth, we have a chance to make ourselves pure and go to heaven despite our prior sinful lives. But if we waste this chance that grace has given us by continuing to sin after learning the truth, we will still go to hell.  Obviously humans do make mistakes. But after learning the truth, purposefully sinning (e.g. choosing to access pornography or choosing to start eating when you know you aren’t hungry) is really bad. After learning the truth, we all need to be striving to not purposefully sin at all, and we all need to be striving to accidentally sin (e.g. getting angry in the heat of the moment or being hungry but then accidentally eating one extra bite of food beyond feeling “politely satisfied”) less and less over time as we grow in our relationship with God, making ourselves more and more pure in the hopes of getting into heaven when we die. 

On 2/22/2023 at 10:19 PM, Concerned said:

As for the perfection thing - I don't understand it either. I mean, Christians are on a lifelong journey to become more like Christ, but Jesus was the only perfect person who ever lived and who will ever be. If Gwen/Elizabeth was/is seen as "perfect," does the mean that they are seen as Jesus?

The personally who originally posted that can correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume that what they meant is that Gwen and Elizabeth can do no wrong in the eyes of the Remnant members. Much of what constitutes being a sinner in Remnant is actually just other people judging you to be a sinner, and much of what constitutes being pure and perfect is actually just other people refraining from judging you unfairly, always giving you the benefit of the doubt by always assuming that your heart and actions are pure before God. If you are new and not in the popular crowd, you are often judged to be more sinful, and you are never given the benefit of the doubt. For example, if your car gets a flat tire, you might get told it is a curse for disobedience to God because you weren’t submissive enough to your husband. Or you might be a very skinny 5’2” 110 lb woman and have your body be judged and be told you have 2 more lbs of greed for food to lose before your heart can be pure before God. And that those 2 lbs are why your husband cheated on you. Stuff like that. On the other hand, Gwen and Elizabeth, and to a lesser extent the other longtime popular inner-circle members, are the ones who get to do the judging, and instead of getting judged themselves, everyone always gives them the benefit of the doubt that they have not purposefully or accidentally sinned. If Gwen gets a flat tire, it’s not interpreted as a curse from God because she sinned; rather, everyone assumes it’s because she had a powerful message from God to give the Remnant members, so Satan wanted to stop her from reaching the church building and delivering that message. If Gwen’s husband ever cheated on her, no one would have assumed it was because Gwen had 2 more lbs to lose. And this isn't a hypothetical, this actually happened: when Elizabeth’s baby died, no one assumed Elizabeth or Gwen was being cursed for sinning; rather, everyone assumed it must have been because some other Remnant members had sinned (see the HBO documentary for further details). 

On 2/22/2023 at 10:19 PM, Concerned said:

My family members are still overweight after being at Remnant for several years. How do they get away with that?

You could politely ask them "How much weight have you lost, and how is being in the Remnant helping your weight loss journey?" I'm sure they would give you all the answers you want because they would think they are trying to convert you. If other people’s experiences are any guide, I would assume that, after being in Remnant for several years, your family members are probably being told in private that they need to lose the weight. And if they are not making satisfactory progress, then they might even be assigned to an “accountability partner” to speak to a few times every day to help guide them in their journey and encourage them not to sin by overeating. If they still don't make satisfactory progress, then eventually they might even be asked to stop physically showing up to church and instead they have to hide at home and listen to the webcast until they lose weight and are allowed to rejoin the congregation once they prove they are committed to keeping the Remnant pure along with everyone else.  But these are all just assumptions based on what I’ve heard from others. 

Edited February 25, 2023 by throwaway9988

[Observer]

On 2/20/2023 at 11:07 PM, Concerned said:

Disclaimer: I am certainly NOT going to try to explain the Holy Trinity!

However, the belief of the trinity is nearly as old as the crucifixion of Christ. It dates back almost two thousand years. It IS one of the main foundational doctrines of Christianity established by the early church fathers (Nicene Creed 325AD). That is why the the churches rejected Gwen Shamblin once they realized that she didn't believe in the Holy Trinity. It was a clear and blatant sign that something was wrong with Gwen's teachings. Gwen grew up in the Church of Christ, who believe in the Trinity, but do not use the words "Trinity" or "Trinitarian" because it is not a word that can be found in the Bible.

However, it is my understanding that her view of the Trinity is quite wayward even from her personal church roots. The three persons of the Holy Trinity are completely EQUAL. Gwen seemed to focus on GOD, the Father, and appeared to place Jesus, the Son, beneath the Father in power and authority. However, in the Bible, Father God is constantly lifting up His Son to be glorified, giving Jesus all authority.

It seems to me as if Gwen needed to prove the "authority chain" doctrine that she taught in her church to theoretically create absolute "order" among the members. To establish the doctrine (and to establish herself, as the authority of her "profound doctrines"), she needed to break the persons of the Trinity down into a chain of command. She needed to make it seem as if Jesus and Holy Spirit "answer" to GOD instead of teaching that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit work in perfect harmony together. 

I attended several Remnant services with my family members in the past. From those visits, the church seemed "odd" in some of its practices, but not crazy. Gwen seemed to teaching Biblical principles from surface level, though her speech was almost monotone, boring and rambling. There certainly wasn't much substance (or "meat") to her messages. They didn't seem to have concrete focus, but felt rather like a group of incoherent thoughts that were strewn together into one "message." 

That being said, I can easily see how a Christian person who is vulnerable, desperate to lose weight and to feel loved, has little-to-no Bible knowledge, and doesn't understand foundational Christian doctrines could be drawn and deceived into believing Gwen's teachings. Even church leaders who wanted to help their congregation get healthier by losing weight would not notice Gwen's teachings as being problematic at first. That is the very definition of "deception." It "creeps" in little by little until a person is completely drawn to believe the "lie." I don't think people got a true understanding of how twisted Gwen's teachings were until they were in a little deeper - going to the conferences and obviously getting involved in Remnant Fellowship. For me, I was skeptical of my family's involvement in Remnant, but I stayed open-minded until little things started to add up, telling me that something was definitely not right.

My family could never "explain" to me Gwen's doctrine of the Trinity because they didn't try to figure it out - they just heard it explained to them by leaders, and they decided that it "sounded right" - it "made sense" to them, and so they accepted it as "truth." However, from personally reading one of the older Remnant websites, I could clearly see how Gwen "twisted" scripture to explain her doctrines.

I also noticed how she was obsessed with God's "beauty and creation," (which is not a bad thing) except for the way she used it. She interpreted God's beauty as a thing that was perfect (and it is,) but she wanted everything about her church and the members to also be "perfect" (which is impossible because of our humanity.) That's why all the weddings had to have their colors "approved" by Gwen. That's the reason for all the picturesque weddings. There's nothing wrong with the desire to do everything with excellence, reflecting the beauty of God. However, the beauty she strived for wasn't an expression of God, but rather "Gwen's" perception and definition of beauty. 

It's all so sad, so twisted - complete deception. I'm still trying to understand how my family have not seen the red flags yet (ESPECIALLY after the big divorce!) Even on my few visits to Remnant, I heard Gwen teach against divorce and how to be a good husband/wife even when your spouse didn't go to church with you. Gwen got so caught up, focusing on the wrong things, that I believe she was clearly deceived herself.

The concept of the Trinity was VOTED ON in 325AD. There were many Christians of that time who felt differently, but they did not have enough votes. That's how we got the Trinity.

[ManyGoats]

7 hours ago, throwaway9988 said:

The personally who originally posted that can correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume that what they meant is that Gwen and Elizabeth can do no wrong in the eyes of the Remnant members.

Yes, that is what I meant. You worded it so much better, thanks!

[MamaJunebug]

My friends, and you are my friends, I skimmed the Trinity discussions, especially lightly. I believe in it, and the other day, for whatever reason I decided to think about how I would explain it to a very sharp minded Jewish friend of mine.
 

I came up with this: the trinity represents God as creator, redeemer and sustainer. That’s all.
 

Hope that helps, if not, I love my religion, but that discussion is beyond my pay grade, other than what I just offered. Love you all, love the discussions. ❤️ 

[Willow]

 

On 2/20/2023 at 11:07 PM, Concerned said:

It seems to me as if Gwen needed to prove the "authority chain" doctrine that she taught in her church to theoretically create absolute "order" among the members. To establish the doctrine (and to establish herself, as the authority of her "profound doctrines"), she needed to break the persons of the Trinity down into a chain of command. She needed to make it seem as if Jesus and Holy Spirit "answer" to GOD instead of teaching that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit work in perfect harmony together. 

GS needed to prove the authority chain for sure. That was the basis for everything, including her control of it all.  A few comments on the above.

(a) she didn't make the Holy Spirit answer to God. She just said that God has a spirit, call it the Holy Spirit or the Spirit of God or whatever you want. Just like (if you believe this stuff) a person has a spirit. A person is not two people because that person has a spirit. So why is God multiple if God has a spirit?

(b) yes Jesus needed to answer to God. Which is literally what Jesus did. "Into Your hands I commend my spirit" and whatnot. How does "Jesus as God" commend himself into his own hands? That is part of the Trinity tangles that many RFers will say doesn't make sense to them and why they think GS's version does. 

(c) moving onto mere humans: I always thought that the authority chain of male over female was one reason that GS couldn't allow "The Gays" or let them marry in RF. If a marriage has two men or two women, then [gasp] who's in charge????

(d) and finally, GS was over it all all all all all. She would say that she was under Jesus, under God, but God sure got twisted around to look a lot like what GS wanted to have happen. That is definitely part of the story that we know for sure. 

[freefromthin]

On 2/25/2023 at 9:18 PM, MamaJunebug said:

My friends, and you are my friends, I skimmed the Trinity discussions, especially lightly. I believe in it, and the other day, for whatever reason I decided to think about how I would explain it to a very sharp minded Jewish friend of mine.
 

I came up with this: the trinity represents God as creator, redeemer and sustainer. That’s all.
 

Hope that helps, if not, I love my religion, but that discussion is beyond my pay grade, other than what I just offered. Love you all, love the discussions. ❤️ 

I love this, thanks!

Regarding the sinless perfection discussion...I was told by someone who was a new convert to RF that you had to admit that people could be sinless before they would allow you to join. I'm not sure if that has always been the case, but I know that Gwen talked a LOT about being "free from sin" and it seemed like she didn't believe that she had any. If she did...I don't recall her mentioning it.

Edited March 2, 2023 by freefromthin
missing words

[Willow]

On 3/1/2023 at 7:54 PM, freefromthin said:

Regarding the sinless perfection discussion...I was told by someone who was a new convert to RF that you had to admit that people could be sinless before they would allow you to join. I'm not sure if that has always been the case, but I know that Gwen talked a LOT about being "free from sin" and it seemed like she didn't believe that she had any. If she did...I don't recall her mentioning it.

GS loved to quote the bible on this: Matthew 5:48 "Be perfect, therefore, as your Heavenly Father is perfect". To her, perfect meant without sin. Which meant that if people were told to do it then it must be possible. So we better do it. Or else. Yadda yadda. Whether that understanding of "perfect" is accurate of the original language in the bible is totally a different question. 

[SilverBeach]

I thought the Lifetime movie was amazing. How ironic that David was the MDiv holder, but Gwen thought she was a theologian for the ages. She was so far from perfect, and negated the entire gospel. I hope those still in the cult get out.

[bffyly]

Just ran across this AP article about the NTSB final report. Puts the blame on Joe. https://apnews.com/article/gwen-shamblin-plane-crash-weightloss-guru-tennessee-f844da111dcf59b56abcdd3401a8c2d2

[throwaway9988]

Hopefully this puts the conspiracy theories to rest so that people can go back to focusing on the bad things they did in life rather than on their accidental deaths. 

[Howl]

Whoo, boy.  Crux paragraphs from the AP article linked by @bffyly: 

"Lara was rated to fly with instruments only, but William Lardent, a local flight instructor who had flown with Lara several times in the Cessna that crashed, told investigators Lara struggled when forced to rely on instruments in low visibility and while using the plane’s autopilot.

Lardent said Lara was a safe pilot but had trouble with multitasking and with situational awareness.

“Mr. Lara could not visualize in his mind where the airplane was in time/space unless he saw it on his iPad,” according to an NTSB account of the interview.

“Mr. Lara wanted to fly to bigger cities like New York and Las Vegas, but Mr. Lardent told him he was not ready because those areas were congested and you ‘had to be on your game’ to operate in those fast-moving environments,” according to the document."

[JermajestyDuggar]

1 hour ago, Howl said:

Whoo, boy.  Crux paragraphs from the AP article linked by @bffyly: 

"Lara was rated to fly with instruments only, but William Lardent, a local flight instructor who had flown with Lara several times in the Cessna that crashed, told investigators Lara struggled when forced to rely on instruments in low visibility and while using the plane’s autopilot.

Lardent said Lara was a safe pilot but had trouble with multitasking and with situational awareness.

“Mr. Lara could not visualize in his mind where the airplane was in time/space unless he saw it on his iPad,” according to an NTSB account of the interview.

“Mr. Lara wanted to fly to bigger cities like New York and Las Vegas, but Mr. Lardent told him he was not ready because those areas were congested and you ‘had to be on your game’ to operate in those fast-moving environments,” according to the document."

I think about all the fundies flying here and there and wonder if there will be another crash in the future that we will talk about on FJ. I hope not. But it wouldn’t shock me. 

[noseybutt]

Wasn’t this the same type of disorientation experienced by JFK, Jr? Seems related to lack of experience.
 

I get terrified driving in a car with my kids when they have learner’s permits. Not sure I would be comfortable in a plane with a casual hobby pilot.

[Howl]

40 minutes ago, noseybutt said:

Wasn’t this the same type of disorientation experienced by JFK, Jr? Seems related to lack of experience.

Yes, exactly.  IIRC, JFK, Jr was also flying a new-to-him plane that he'd recently bought.  It was a faster, more powerful plane so things happened faster, less time to react. 

I don't know if JFK, Jr was rated to fly instruments only. 

[JDuggs]

7 minutes ago, Howl said:

Yes, exactly.  IIRC, JFK, Jr was also flying a new-to-him plane that he'd recently bought.  It was a faster, more powerful plane so things happened faster, less time to react. 

I don't know if JFK, Jr was rated to fly instruments only. 

No, JFK Jr. was not rated to fly instruments only.

[Howl]

1 hour ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I think about all the fundies flying here and there and wonder if there will be another crash in the future that we will talk about on FJ. I hope not.

Me too.  People on the ground are also at risk.  It's "miraculous" that no one on the ground was killed in the Lara crash.  

[viii]

On 2/25/2023 at 9:18 PM, MamaJunebug said:

I came up with this: the trinity represents God as creator, redeemer and sustainer. That’s all.

Hope that helps, if not, I love my religion, but that discussion is beyond my pay grade, other than what I just offered. Love you all, love the discussions. ❤️ 

LOVE this! Thank you for sharing. I agree - my knowledge is not vast enough for these discussions, but that really clicks with me regarding the trinity. 

[Alisamer]

The sad thing is, assuming disorientation was the ONLY issue there and they were at a high enough altitude to clear the trees, all he likely needed to do to recover was to take his hands off the controls and breathe for a minute. I am not a pilot but I've seen multiple pilots say (and demonstrate) that unless you are in a fighter jet the plane is designed to level itself out if at all possible. Helicopters are a different story, but fixed wing planes actively want to fly as long as there's any air flowing over the wings. 

I'm glad the report is out and all the speculation and conspiracy theories can be put to rest. They died, and that's sad for the people who loved them. But they also caused harm to people with their beliefs, "church" and their dogma.

[JermajestyDuggar]

My brain is wired to immediately reject conspiracy theories if there’s a very obvious explanation. In this case, it seemed that everyone knew Joe wasn’t a super experienced pilot and it was possible he made a flying mistake since it can be easy to do. There was no way my brain would even entertain the idea someone tampered with the plane. 

[bffyly]

2 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

In this case, it seemed that everyone knew Joe wasn’t a super experienced pilot …

Everyone except the people on that plane and other RF people. I think he represented himself as experienced to Gwen, and if Gwen said it was safe, then no one argued. The key for me was when Natasha refused to allow their daughter to fly with him. She knew for sure.  I wonder if any RF knew his daughter wasn’t allowed to fly with him.