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Jinjer 58: Going for the DMIN


Coconut Flan

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Just now, SassyPants said:

So this religious, misogynistic organization thinks it OK for only the female member of the partnership to hold a family supporting job? Again, are red flags not being raised in everyone’s mind?

See, I think these books are ghost written so am having a hard time considering it work. Which is a whole other level of problematic that I automatically assume this.

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21 minutes ago, noseybutt said:

See, I think these books are ghost written so am having a hard time considering it work. Which is a whole other level of problematic that I automatically assume this.

I was just reading about this topic on Reddit. Numerous commenters have reported that the Vuolos put $130,000 down on the house and have a $700,000 mortgage. Where the 130K came from has only been speculated. In order to secure a mortgage, one has to show a reliable income stream or significant liquid assets. So, someone IS working. Or maybe the Vuolos Sr are fronting the entire thing-

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5 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

I was just reading about this topic on Reddit. Numerous commenters have reported that the Vuolos put $130,000 down on the house and have a $700,000 mortgage. Where the 130K came from has only been speculated. In order to secure a mortgage, one has to show a reliable income stream or significant liquid assets. So, someone IS working. Or maybe the Vuolos Sr are fronting the entire thing-

Correct. 

I’m outing myself as a hypocrite because I was the one who wrote recently about how it’s an incorrect assumption that people from dysfunctional and cultish backgrounds can’t grow from that and do things like learn technology.

Yet, Jinger says she wrote a book and I’m like, naaaaah.
 

😂

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1 hour ago, Coconut Flan said:

MacArthur's church has zero problem with women working from what I can tell.  They have a lot of working women and I wouldn't be surprised that quite a few make more than their husbands do. 

Have you been to the church? I’m genuinely curious as you seem to know a lot about it. 

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2 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Have you been to the church? I’m genuinely curious as you seem to know a lot about it. 

It’s not just one church, it’s a whole movement. I know people on the east coast who are into it.

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30 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Have you been to the church? I’m genuinely curious as you seem to know a lot about it. 

Just a few visits.  I know a very few members.  My daughter and I have met Jeremy and Jinger as visitors.  What appears to me is that like most churches what the leadership posts or publishes and what the members actually do isn't always a good match.  It's like the old story of the Baptists who don't acknowledge each other at the liquor store or have their booze delivered.  

I would never regularly go there and definitely would not join or support the church.  Just attending casually, it is neither cult-like or super toxic when compared to the local Presbyterian Church.  I'm allergic to becoming either Baptist or Calvinist BTW  so I'm not pre-disposed to think kindly of them.  I found MacArthur despicable during the pandemic.  I have attended a very few IFB services and they were obviously and outwardly toxic.

It has an exceptional music program and aside from the sermons is a nice service.  MacArthur is boring as Hades as a speaker.  The people we know who go there do not follow all the beliefs and are very normal in fitting in with their residential community.  

I'm definitely not saying it's a good place, but it isn't like it gets portrayed here either.  

Yes, there are other member churches of the group and I've never been to any of those.  I'm not saying it's a good or healthy place, but it's fairly typical of what we have as far as conservative churches today. 

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On 10/18/2022 at 12:45 PM, viii said:

Absolutely. This is the book that Jill needs to tell because she is the one living a life that closely resembles freedom. Jinger is still trapped in an unhealthy environment, this time it's just called marriage and her headship isn't her dad anymore, but her husband. She still isn't free to make her own choices. Interesting that she's including Ben in it, though, since Jessa seems to be the Duggarling that has doubled down on their faith the hardest. (At least, I'm assuming it's Ben - I think he's the one that originally introduced Jinger to Jeremy)

I guess I just don’t see how Jinger is substantially less free than Jill ? They both seem to live very, very similar lifestyles - both have husbands that have strong personalities. Derek has been more vocally anti- JB, but that seems as much about $$$ as ideology. Jinger comes across more meek  and passive — but I get the impression that’s just her personality. And she’d be just as passive whoever she is paired with.  
Interestingly IIRC Ben was the only Duggar / in-law to not support Trump. 

 

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1 minute ago, Mama Mia said:

I guess I just don’t see how Jinger is substantially less free than Jill ? They both seem to live very, very similar lifestyles - both have husbands that have strong personalities. Derek has been more vocally anti- JB, but that seems as much about $$$ as ideology. Jinger comes across more meek  and passive — but I get the impression that’s just her personality. And she’d be just as passive whoever she is paired with.  
Interestingly IIRC Ben was the only Duggar / in-law to not support Trump. 

 

My big thing is that Jill is open about going to secular therapy. I say secular therapy because there are a lot of fundies and conservative Christian’s who get “Christian counseling” from completely uneducated people who think they know what they are doing. I don’t believe Jinger has said she’s gone to secular therapy. If she did, she might find out she’s not as free as she thinks. 

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Hasn't Jill also made reference to not voting for Trump? Yes, that's a very low bar in some ways. However, given that Trump supporters are a cult unto themselves I think that is worth noting. 

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11 minutes ago, Mama Mia said:

I guess I just don’t see how Jinger is substantially less free than Jill ? They both seem to live very, very similar lifestyles - both have husbands that have strong personalities. Derek has been more vocally anti- JB, but that seems as much about $$$ as ideology. Jinger comes across more meek  and passive — but I get the impression that’s just her personality. And she’d be just as passive whoever she is paired with.  
Interestingly IIRC Ben was the only Duggar / in-law to not support Trump. 

 

Of recent, Dillard has secured a relevant education and job, and is working to support his family. In the Vuolo home, Jinger is the apparent breadwinner, which per what has been posted here from their church’s website, does not match the tenets of that church. I’d say Jinger is less free because she has to work to pay for her family’s lifestyle. Jill does not have that pressure and certainly has more freedom in terms of her time to pursue other interests, educational or otherwise. With recent decisions made, including buying an $800,000+ home in SoCal, Jinger has put herself on the treadmill that most of us have to run to live in today’s society.

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I will say a church can be incredibly patriarchal and still have some women in higher up positions. Gwen Shamblin’s church is a great example of that. She preached men being the head of the house and refused to call herself a profit because she believed only men could be profits. Yet she ran that church with an iron fist.  

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I think we can all agree that both Jinger and Jill are more free than any of the the married Bateses or Duggars who do not believe/realize that THEY have the ability to decide how many children to bore. Kendra is certainly not free. Tori, not free. I think having body autonomy is the number 1 issue on the road to personal freedom-

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22 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Of recent, Dillard has secured a relevant education and job, and is working to support his family. In the Vuolo home, Jinger is the apparent breadwinner, which per what has been posted here from their church’s website, does not match the tenets of that church. I’d say Jinger is less free because she has to work to pay for her family’s lifestyle. Jill does not have that pressure and certainly has more freedom in terms of her time to pursue other interests, educational or otherwise. With recent decisions made, including buying an $800,000+ home in SoCal, Jinger has put herself on the treadmill that most of us have to run to live in today’s society.

It’s a conundrum though because whether a woman works or not doesn’t make her inherently more or less free. 

A woman with high income does have a certain amount of power should she choose to use it, but Jinger is not likely to use that power to be anything close to equal in her relationship with her husband.

In contrast, some stay at home mothers and wives have  tremendous agency.

It’s the relationship more than the paycheck.

 

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Just because Calvinist teachings are inherently patriarchal doesn't mean women don't work.  Women can work both from home and in an actual work environment, but they are still second-class citizens within the church and their families.  I know lots of women who worked actual jobs in the Calvinist church I grew up in (and they were constantly shamed and questioned about it) but within the church structure they were forbidden from voting or leading anything during the service, and the only thing they could aspire to within the church was to teach Sunday school.  Their husbands are the unquestioned heads of their families and single women have no say in the church at all.  Their fathers are considered their spiritual authority till the day they die or are married.  You will never find a Beth Moore or any other leader-type woman in a Reformed/Calvanist Church.  

There is enormous pressure for women to be beautiful and fit, and many of them will look attractive and fit in with people around them so they aren't painfully obvious like fundies of yore, but they are absolutely fundamentalist.  Obviously there are people who go to the churches and don't follow the rules, as happens everywhere, but the true believers, they are as extreme as any fundie we follow.  I would argue that John MacArthur and John Piper are extremely fundamentalist, and if Jeremy looks at MacArthur as a person to be admired and followed, then I don't believe for a second that Jinger is free.  

Edited by treehugger
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Personally when I think of “freedom” from a cult, i think of it as mostly mental. Sure there are some cults that physically restrain you. Like you can’t leave the compound or whatever. But there are lots of people who physically leave cults and for years, they aren’t mentally free. I saw a good example of this when a man who physically left the Heavens Gate cult before they all killed themselves. It was very obvious he was not mentally free even after 20 years after he physically left and they died. I felt very bad for him.

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1 hour ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

Hasn't Jill also made reference to not voting for Trump? Yes, that's a very low bar in some ways. However, given that Trump supporters are a cult unto themselves I think that is worth noting. 

I think she was open, or at least alluded, to not voting for Trump in 2020, but quiet on the topic in 2016. I think that’s when they were away being missionaries though. IIRC Ben stated in 2016 he wasn’t voting Trump. But I could certainly be wrong, those years all blend together. 
 

The discussion of level of freedom in patriarchy being based as much on relationship as ideology is interesting. So many dynamics at play. 

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Derick openly supported Trump in 2016 but not 2020. Idk about Jill but I think it’s likely she voted for him the first time.

As for GCC, it’s one thing to attend the church and not follow all the doctrine strictly. It’s another thing to be in the inner circle and promote the church and it’s teachings. The Vuolos fall into the latter camp. Jeremy had openly co-signed some of McArthur’s most despicable beliefs. Just look up their statement on social justice. Jeremy signed it on behalf of his Laredo church. 

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5 hours ago, noseybutt said:

In addition to that, they often find themselves under the authority of a man other than their husband 

I interpret this as, “only women should be in positions of power”

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3 hours ago, treehugger said:

Just because Calvinist teachings are inherently patriarchal doesn't mean women don't work.  Women can work both from home and in an actual work environment, but they are still second-class citizens within the church and their families.  I know lots of women who worked actual jobs in the Calvinist church I grew up in (and they were constantly shamed and questioned about it) but within the church structure they were forbidden from voting or leading anything during the service, and the only thing they could aspire to within the church was to teach Sunday school.  Their husbands are the unquestioned heads of their families and single women have no say in the church at all.  Their fathers are considered their spiritual authority till the day they die or are married.  You will never find a Beth Moore or any other leader-type woman in a Reformed/Calvanist Church.  

There is enormous pressure for women to be beautiful and fit, and many of them will look attractive and fit in with people around them so they aren't painfully obvious like fundies of yore, but they are absolutely fundamentalist.  Obviously there are people who go to the churches and don't follow the rules, as happens everywhere, but the true believers, they are as extreme as any fundie we follow.  I would argue that John MacArthur and John Piper are extremely fundamentalist, and if Jeremy looks at MacArthur as a person to be admired and followed, then I don't believe for a second that Jinger is free.  

I’m looking at it more from the viewpoint of what the church thinks about the man NOT working. Economics dictates for many families that both adults most work, or that there are 2 paychecks coming in (I know men who work 2 jobs while they have a stay @ home partner), but would a patriarchal church support the idea of a woman wage earner while the man does not?

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12 hours ago, Travelfan said:

Calvinism is what eventually got me completely out of Christianity. I had doubted whether the whole Bible/God thing was really real since I was about 8. That was completely terrifying because I had always been taught that going to heaven was based purely on whether you fully believed/trusted in Jesus. Since I knew I doubted his existence I knew I was going to hell unless I could find a way to fully believe without doubt. I stayed this way for about 30 years, always fearing death, always being very devout in Christianity (thinking if I was very good and devout and prayed God would remove my bit of doubt, and I would go to heaven).  I never dared tell anyone of my secret doubt.  I married a pastor and was active in church and Bible study and raised my kids doing the same, I definitely didn’t want them to doubt and go to hell!  Then I encountered Calvinism. My husband likes MacArthur and his teachings and I came to realize the reason I could never get rid of the doubt and fully believe was because I wasn’t elect and God had chosen to blind my eyes.  This took the terror to a whole new level. There was ZERO chance I could ever believe, hell was a 100% certainty!  After about a month of living in that dark place I started to think a new thought…I had never been able to fully believe because a little piece of my brain said what if it’s not true…I started to think if it’s really not true then there is no hell!  Well after 30 years of living in fear of hell I finally had a way out. I clung to that idea that it’s really not true and over the past few years that has come to be my firm belief.  Looking back now I can’t believe I ever believed any of it, it all seems so far fetched. I fully understand that for many people faith gives them hope and comfort so I in no way try to dissuade others from their faith. But for me I found my hope, comfort and peace in atheism. Ironically I consider myself “free” now as well and got a tattoo that’s states that. I can see why she would title her book as she has, when you come out of something you felt trapped in you do indeed feel free.  She has found freedom in the same thing I felt trapped in…

I also was shocked one day, after believing I was going to hell since I was in kindergarten or so, to suddenly realize that if I don't believe in jesus or sin or all that...then hell isn't real either. It took about 7 years to figure it out.

Seems obvious once you think it but having been raised in hellfire and damnation it was hardest to undo that piece more than any other.

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@SassyPants, I can only go by what I saw in parents church, but I know when my husband and I got married, we had marriage counseling there.  At the time, we both were working and I was making more than my husband was.  We were strongly encouraged to have a joint bank account only, because the temptation to divorce would be easier if we had separate accounts, and also my husband couldn’t be a proper leader if he wasn’t in charge of the finances.  Of course, we promptly disregarded his advice and maintained our separate accounts, 14 years later I have no regrets.  
Joint accounts were the way it went there though, so even though the wife is working, her money often goes into a joint account, which is under the headship of her husband.  I know so many women there who got “allowance” money from the account, with which they could budget out clothes for the kids, clothes for themselves, bills, food, etc, while the husband had a case of beer every night. 
I think the official stance of a patriarchal church would be that the man should work and the women stay home, but if that isn’t possible, then joint accounts it is and the man gets controlling interest. Again, disclaimer that not everyone does that, but it is super common in my experience. After all, the patriarchy will always make sure their life is convenient for them, logic be damned.  In the Vuolo’s case, I very much doubt Jinger has control over the finances, even though she seems to be the biggest wage earner.  But that fits in nicely with my experience of a Calvinist, patriarchal church. 

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On 10/18/2022 at 10:31 PM, Vivi_music said:

 

But if Jinger is able to break the cycle of abuse for her children, and let her daughters grow up without fear, physicial punishment or without cutting them out from society (not being in a literal cult), well for me it is a step forward. In the long run, it will be beneficial for the next generation. Baby step, but a step nonetheless? :confusion-shrug:

That would be a huge step forward. Even protecting her kids from Uncle Josh is a huge improvement.
 

On 10/18/2022 at 11:03 PM, Coconut Flan said:

Their church, for all the negatives it has and there are plenty, is not a cult.  The people there live normal lives outside the church.  Jinger is probably living life as she wants or close to what she wants.  She's free to drink, socialize, dance, use birth control, plan their family, have the children be educated and play sports, and work outside the home if she wants.  

She certainly has more luxury and freedom than she did growing up, but it doesn’t mean she is free. Less trapped is still trapped. 

 

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1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

I’m looking at it more from the viewpoint of what the church thinks about the man NOT working. Economics dictates for many families that both adults most work, or that there are 2 paychecks coming in (I know men who work 2 jobs while they have a stay @ home partner), but would a patriarchal church support the idea of a woman wage earner while the man does not?

I am guessing his seminary is considered a job and allows him to keep his man card. And Jinger works from home, so. 

But also, most of us here have lost any expectation that the rules made by these people actually apply to the inner circle. 

 

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On 10/18/2022 at 1:55 PM, Mrs Ms said:

If it comes to light in the book that she has done a tonne of secular therapy, then I am happy she wrote the book. Otherwise she has just swapped Bill Gothard and JB for MacArthur and Jeremy with no true self reflection. 

I doubt it will. MacArthur's Master's seminary is big on nouthetic counseling, aka Bible non-secular counseling.

I am glad for Jinger that she's able to see what garbage Gothard teaching is. Imagine the best we can hope for from this is Gothard cult exposed.

Also, MacArthur is on the fundie end of conservative evangelicalism. He's covered up sexual abuse, did not report a pedophile and instead publicly shamed his wife for divorcing him, wore the persecution mantle during COVID, he even has a study Bible with his name on it. 

Interesting if true to think that 19 year old Ben with his Christian message was a first crack for Jinger. Anyone remember that long ago video with Ben & Jeremy getting Jinger's testimony? It felt so odd at the time b/c everyone was like: sure, you had a moment where you realized you were a sinner...for what the 99hundredth time? But maybe that was a genuine moment for her. 

I have no doubt people in IBLP/Gothard  could totally be all in religious and never connect the dots. It's also interesting to think what ppl, especially girls, raised in authoritarian environments require to "break free" - it seems either the approved ways - marry a more progressive (all relative) partner OR submit to God as higher authority and have a spiritual revelation (God actually doesn't care if I wear pants, and His authority is higher than parents). Or rebel.

I think Jinger is still very deep in conservative, high control religious environment, but who knows? To go public with story is a money maker, for sure, but it's also a bridge burner. It's a full rejection of IBLP, the religious principles under which she was raised, and everyone in that community.

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I will totally read this book BTW. I don't think she's becoming exvangelical or anything like that, but, in many ways, this is bigger than some of the other external steps b/c she's deconstructing faith in a very public way. The fact that she so quickly is writing a book about it indicates she probably still feels evangelical impulse to use this as a ministry opportunity, but still. 

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