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Norm Wakefield’s daughter tells her story


Columbia

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2 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

It actually lines up pretty well with what Alyssa said 🤢

For those who can translate fundie-speak, Norm's version is every bit as awful as anything Alyssa related. You just have to decode it. 

Norm Wakefield may not have been a terrible person at one time but he sure is now. There's probably no hope he'll break away from the cult he's been in for so many years, let alone apologize to Alyssa for the great harm he inflicted on her and her children. 

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23 minutes ago, hoipolloi said:

For those who can translate fundie-speak, Norm's version is every bit as awful as anything Alyssa related. You just have to decode it. 

Norm Wakefield may not have been a terrible person at one time but he sure is now. There's probably no hope he'll break away from the cult he's been in for so many years, let alone apologize to Alyssa for the great harm he inflicted on her and her children. 

I agree. And it’s sad how Alyssa still loves him so much that it’s still blinded her a little bit. She can see how her dad hurt her in some ways. But I could tell she doesn’t see it fully yet. And I think she admitted she’s still processing all these years later. So 5 years from now, she will see even more of her father’s behavior as harmful. 

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The fact that she was open with how much she missed him after marriage was a sign that she was unhappy already.

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22 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

She said everyone complemented her and her family for staying so thin. While they were only allowed to eat one meal a day because her husband controlled the little money they had. It makes me think how many other fundie families are underfed due to money. 

To me, her story hits especially hard because while I've always assumed that a lot of fundie families are really struggling to provide for their large broods, I foolishly considered the OG VF royalty clans as being fairly immune to that. If this is what Alyssa's family was going through behind the shiny blog photos, I'm sure it was worse for others.

Also, after hearing Alyssa's interview, I'm more curious than ever to hear the details of what led to Kelly Leininger and Richard Welch's divorce. IIRC, Richard and Kelly got married just a month or so before Robert and Alyssa did in '97, but they divorced way back in 2011. I had always assumed that it had to do with her desire to pursue acting (because all of her movie credits are post-divorce), but the more I hear about the Welch family, the more I suspect that was just the tip of the iceberg.

Edited by AnnaSofia
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17 minutes ago, AnnaSofia said:

To me, her story hits especially hard because while I've always assumed that a lot of fundie families are really struggling to provide for their large broods, I foolishly considered the OG VF royalty clans as being fairly immune to that. If this is what Alyssa's family was going through behind the shiny blog photos, I'm sure it was worse for others.

Also, after hearing Alyssa's interview, I'm more curious than ever to hear the details of what led to Kelly Leininger and Richard Welch's divorce. IIRC, Richard and Kelly got married just a month or so before Robert and Alyssa did in '97, but they divorced way back in 2011. I had always assumed that it had to do with her desire to pursue acting (because all of her movie credits are post-divorce), but the more I hear about the Welch family, the more I suspect that was just the tip of the iceberg.

I agree. There’s definitely more to that story. Bob Welch seems to have raised some very entitled controlling men like himself. 

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20 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I agree. There’s definitely more to that story. Bob Welch seems to have raised some very entitled controlling men like himself. 

Yeah. Bob Welch is the pastor who married Kristen (nee Baird) and Zack Clark. 

The Baird family used to attend Bob and Yvonne Welch’s church in Fredricksburg (which was part of the BCA community). Kristen and Bethany met and became friends with Lourdes Torres through that church. 

I believe Yvonne Welch’s newest book she has a section on the merits of Bethany Beal’s courtship.

Also it seems the courtship video Alyssa was referring to used to be available on her dad’s website under the title ‘A Marriage Made in Heaven’.

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On 6/17/2022 at 11:37 AM, nolongerIFBx said:

https://web.archive.org/web/20090416125802/http://resolved2worship.xanga.com/ - I haven't gone looking for just the courtship story but here's the wayback link.

 

 

The courtship story starts on the pages captured in early February of 2011, the last couple installments are later, with the final one being on the June 10th capture. I've been reading it in preparation for listening to the podcast, since she's new to me. 

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8 hours ago, Laura2730 said:

I believe Yvonne Welch’s newest book she has a section on the merits of Bethany Beal’s courtship.

Which book is this? I’m having trouble finding a recent title. 

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12 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I agree. There’s definitely more to that story. Bob Welch seems to have raised some very entitled controlling men like himself. 

Looking at pics of Alyssa and Kelly, it seems like Bob had a definite "type" that he picked out for his sons. Makes Alyssa's comment about him being the most perverted man she ever met all the creepier.

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17 minutes ago, NachosFlandersStyle said:

Looking at pics of Alyssa and Kelly, it seems like Bob had a definite "type" that he picked out for his sons. Makes Alyssa's comment about him being the most perverted man she ever met all the creepier.

I think she alluded to Bob planning on her looks enticing the other son into better behavior after marrying her. I guess he was much worse behaved than the older brother. Which is disturbing. I feel sorry for both Kelly and Alyssa. Of course he would thing beautiful young fundie girls would somehow make his sons better. 🙄 

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11 hours ago, Columbia said:

Which book is this? I’m having trouble finding a recent title. 

Bethany mentioned it on one of the Girl Defind videos so I’m going to try and track it down.

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On 6/18/2022 at 2:43 AM, AnnaSofia said:

Alyssa and her older sister are later sent to Bill Gorthard's 8 week EXCEL program for girls in Dallas, Texas.  Alyssa is initially somewhat excited, knowing it's the closest experience to "going away to college" that she'll ever get.  There she meets Bob Welch, the "honorary bible teacher" and his wife, Yvonne.

I’m fairly sure I have a picture of Bob and his wife from the time I went to EXCEL. I’ll have to dig the album out of storage and see. In my memory both him and his wife were very cold people who made me extremely nervous. It was in their session that all the girls had to write a list of what they wanted in a husband and Bob was a bit harsh if your list didn’t include the things he thought they should. I remember noticing that Bob’s teachings seemed to be different than Gothard’s. Bob pushed for young marriages for women while Gothard had just given a session where he said both men and women should dedicate the first seven years of their adulthood to serving in the ministry. 
 

I remember Alyssa’s blog and how they were all just so ridiculously perfect looking. It is heartbreaking to realize how much she was suffering at that time. I’m glad she was able to find freedom.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

I was a follower of Alyssa's blog back in the day. I listened to some of the podcast last night ( I couldn't stomach the whole thing though so I ended up skipping some parts.) What is interesting is I remember right around the time she was pregnant with her last baby she wrote a post on her blog about how this would be their last baby. She gave an analogy to kids being compared to flowers; however, she said if there are too many flowers in the garden they compete for resources and die. Right after this post her blog was completely shut down. It all makes so much sense now. 

I also remember thinking that she was slowly becoming less fundi. She was sending her boys to public school and her post seemed like she was starting to question things. It is interesting that she still seems to have a  very strong faith life but obviously in a very different way. 

I'm really curious as to what happened to her sister. Her sister and her kids were often on her blog. They seemed to do a lot together at one point- although Alyssa and her family seemed to move frequently so this was dependent on where they were living. 

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8 minutes ago, ElizaB said:

I was a follower of Alyssa's blog back in the day. I listened to some of the podcast last night ( I couldn't stomach the whole thing though so I ended up skipping some parts.) What is interesting is I remember right around the time she was pregnant with her last baby she wrote a post on her blog about how this would be their last baby. She gave an analogy to kids being compared to flowers; however, she said if there are too many flowers in the garden they compete for resources and die. Right after this post her blog was completely shut down. It all makes so much sense now. 

I also remember thinking that she was slowly becoming less fundi. She was sending her boys to public school and her post seemed like she was starting to question things. It is interesting that she still seems to have a  very strong faith life but obviously in a very different way. 

I'm really curious as to what happened to her sister. Her sister and her kids were often on her blog. They seemed to do a lot together at one point- although Alyssa and her family seemed to move frequently so this was dependent on where they were living. 

This is why I don’t discount small changes in fundies. I know a lot of people say it’s no big deal when a fundie starts wearing pants or something like that. But I think depending on the fundie, it could mean they are making changes in their lives. And those changes could lead to changes in religious beliefs. I’m not saying every fundie who makes changes will end up a bleeding heart liberal atheist. Far from it. What I think usually happens is a very long journey to finding themselves. Because their parents told them exactly who they are and exactly how they should live, they never really figured it out. Alyssa is well on her way to figuring out who she is. But she’s obviously still figuring it out. I see so many fundies in the beginning stages of figuring it out. And they may end up conservative Christians who publicly hate purity culture but still demonize porn and wears bikinis while sending their kids to public school. The important part is the process of questioning. The process of changing their minds on something drilled into their brains. And it will probably be an extremely long process. But at least the questioning and the process is happening. 

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On 6/29/2022 at 3:01 PM, JermajestyDuggar said:

This is why I don’t discount small changes in fundies. I know a lot of people say it’s no big deal when a fundie starts wearing pants or something like that. But I think depending on the fundie, it could mean they are making changes in their lives. And those changes could lead to changes in religious beliefs. I’m not saying every fundie who makes changes will end up a bleeding heart liberal atheist. Far from it. What I think usually happens is a very long journey to finding themselves. Because their parents told them exactly who they are and exactly how they should live, they never really figured it out. Alyssa is well on her way to figuring out who she is. But she’s obviously still figuring it out. I see so many fundies in the beginning stages of figuring it out. And they may end up conservative Christians who publicly hate purity culture but still demonize porn and wears bikinis while sending their kids to public school. The important part is the process of questioning. The process of changing their minds on something drilled into their brains. And it will probably be an extremely long process. But at least the questioning and the process is happening. 

Right.  Most of the fundies discussed here are actively trying to undercut independent thought and critical thinking from their kids.  I can't tell you how many of my exvangelical friends were praised for their "critical thinking" skills by their parents when really it was just "they believe exactly how we want them to and can give all the reasons we've taught them to give".  Now that they no longer share their parents beliefs, their parents criticize their intelligence instead.  

There is a very narrow range of allowable independent thought.  Some fundie families do include pants within their range of allowable independent thought, but many don't.  Someone from a family that does not consider it an allowable deviation from their norm choosing to wear pants is an active, open rejection of the limits being externally placed on them, and an expression of independent thought.  It may be small, but it's significant.  

If it's an entire family shifting, then it's less significant, because that's a parental shift and not evidence of independent thought from the kids.  But if a kid does it while the family still publicly holding that it's not acceptable?  That's a big deal.  

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  • 11 months later...
23 hours ago, stylites said:

Incidentally, she's now doing a series of videos with Sheila Gregoire outlining her experiences:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L30iZuwY4Qk

My gosh, that was hard to listen to.  So incredibly painful.  It was an arranged marriage, literally.  She had no say as a 17 or 18 year old and was married to a stranger -  a man 10 years older that she was not attracted to.   

She believed it was her duty to SUBMIT to her father's decision and subsequently to submit in every way to her husband.  Every person and religious institution in her life failed her utterly, including her parents. Everyone basically told her "Submit more!"

This is a good primer on toxic "submission" = debase yourself to the fullest extent possible at the cost of your humanity, self respect, mental/physical/emotional/spiritual health, because nothing, absolutely NOTHING is more important than submission to male supremacy in a relationship. 

Her turning point was reading a magazine article in a doctor's waiting room, written by a Muslim woman who was forced into an arranged marriage to a  man 10 years older and managed to escape years later. Alyssa realized that was exactly her situation. She had 8 children by that point and had endured 3 miscarriages. 

She also referred to her ex-father in law as "the most perverted man" she's ever known. 

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On 6/15/2023 at 12:19 PM, Howl said:

She also referred to her ex-father in law as "the most perverted man" she's ever known. 

I presume that is Bob Welch?

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On 6/14/2023 at 8:05 AM, stylites said:

Incidentally, she's now doing a series of videos with Sheila Gregoire outlining her experiences:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L30iZuwY4Qk

I watched the videos and the whole thing was a familiar story of exiting fundamentalism, but still shocking and sad.  Two observations that stuck with me were (paraphrasing):  “biblical is not necessarily Christian,” and why does someone need more than Jesus’ big umbrella (in response to the Gothard illustration of nesting umbrellas).  I’ll never look at that graphic of the multiple shielding umbrellas without thinking of that.

My latest interest is reading and listening to high demand religion exit stories.  It would be great if more individuals would figure it out before they had eight plus kids, but glad people emerge to get their stories out there. 

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  • 6 months later...

I'm really glad she shared her story.  She seems to have locked down her social media though, I can't find her Instagram anymore and I was enjoying following her journey of recovery.  We were in the same circles.

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