Carlin & Evan 11: Scary Health Situation

[Howl]

On 5/25/2022 at 9:40 PM, Dominionatrix said:

Seizures can also be a symptom of long Covid. We know she had covid in 2020, and given the family’s lack of precautions and it’s very possible she could have had omicron this past winter without realizing.

Yes, yes, yes.  I've been reading a bit here and there about post-covid adverse effects on the brain.  

It's global in the sense that the effects are at the cellular level throughout the brain, rather than something discrete like a stroke or an aneurysm. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

It seems the Bates family has been most affected by Covid. And of coarse they are the ones who didn’t seem to give a shit about following any of the rules or guidelines and of course they all caught it. Kelly’s stepfather died of it. Her mother got very sick from it. Erin got very sick and had to have body parts removed. Carlin is now ill and it could be Covid related too. All this to say I bet none of them are vaccinated and still won’t take precautions. 

Edited May 27, 2022 by JermajestyDuggar

[Smash!]

2 hours ago, Jilltoo said:

Until they come out with an updated vaccine, this one is kind of useless from what I’ve seen. It worked for wuhan and Delta at least. 

This is false. The vaccine works very well against severe disease with Omicron. We don‘t have overwhelmed hospitals anymore despite Omicron being more transmissible than the original strain. The vaccine cuts your risk of Long Covid approximately in half. As far as I recall the vaccine was never designed to prevent infection (it would have taken too long to develop). The goal was to get a vaccine as fast as possible to keep people from dying.

However we don‘t know enough about the long term damages on the body of mild Covid. 

Edited May 27, 2022 by Smash!

[Keys]

52 minutes ago, Smash! said:

This is false. The vaccine works very well against severe disease with Omicron. We don‘t have overwhelmed hospitals anymore despite Omicron being more transmissible than the original strain. The vaccine cuts your risk of Long Covid approximately in half. As far as I recall the vaccine was never designed to prevent infection (it would have taken too long to develop). The goal was to get a vaccine as fast as possible to keep people from dying.

However we don‘t know enough about the long term damages on the body of mild Covid. 

Yes, 100% this!!! I am a HCW and have cared for many many covid patients since the start of the pandemic. I do a lot of obstetrics and have unfortunately cared for many pregnant covid patients, too. The vast majority have been unvaccinated. Being on a blood thinner or having a clotting disorder is also not a contraindication to receive an mRNA vaccine. Covid causes a hyper-coagulable state (and you are also hyper-coagulable while pregnant), so being vaccinated is arguably even more important for those people. 

Both my husband and I unfortunately caught covid over the winter. We are both triple-vaccinated. But it was so incredibly rampant in our city, that it felt hard to avoid, and we did the absolute best we could. My husband’s only symptom was sore throat for 3 days. I had it at 23 weeks pregnant, and fortunately also had a very mild course, and babe is doing just fine, from what we can tell. I do still have a bit of worry about unknown long-term effects of having it, especially for babe. But I’ve never been more grateful for our vaccines 💜

Edited May 27, 2022 by Keys

[Smash!]

@Keys Thank you for everything you did during the pandemic. It must have been hell at times.

Congrats on your pregnancy! I‘m sure your babe will be just fine. 

Gosh I was so mad at the Swiss version of the CDC for their hesitation to recommend the vaccine for pregnant people. With our infection rate it felt like madness waiting for hypothetical side effects to occur when pregnancy meant those people were automatically high risk and the risk for miscarriage/stillbirth increases so much.         

I get the confusion from those who are pregnant. This is why official bodies and doctors have to send very clear messages. There are always circumstances where it‘s better to not get the vaccine. But to me it‘s important to weigh up those risks against the risks of a possible Covid infection. 

[Jilltoo]

I got the vaccines and the booster, but In no rush to get another until an update in the vaccine. 
 

New studies show vaccine really doesn’t help prevent long term covid, maybe 15%. 
 

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/vaccines-offer-little-protection-long-covid-study-finds-rcna30467

[Howl]

5 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Erin got very sick and had to have body parts removed.

Eeeeeek!  What got removed? 

2 minutes ago, Jilltoo said:

New studies show vaccine really doesn’t help prevent long term covid, maybe 15%.

I'll point out that it prevents long term covid if it keeps you from getting covid in the first place, so the prevention rate is the effective rate of the vaccine against covid infection. 

[CaptainFunderpants]

15 minutes ago, Howl said:

Eeeeeek!  What got removed? 

One full ovary and then 90% of another.

She apparently was starting to show menopause symptoms, but got pregnant. Admittedly plenty of women do get pregnant as they enter menopause because of hyper ovulation; they get less careful with birth control/preventing thinking they're almost home-free, and then it happens.

[JermajestyDuggar]

There was a fundie who caught Covid last year and miscarried. It was Olivia Plath’s sister. She’s not big on social media. But she did say she had a miscarriage when she caught Covid. So you would think it was linked. Of course miscarriages happen without Covid. So I imagine no one could say for sure. 

[Bluebirdbluebell]

31 minutes ago, CaptainFunderpants said:

One full ovary and then 90% of another.

She apparently was starting to show menopause symptoms, but got pregnant. Admittedly plenty of women do get pregnant as they enter menopause because of hyper ovulation; they get less careful with birth control/preventing thinking they're almost home-free, and then it happens.

She had 2/3s of the second ovary removed. She still has 1/3 of an ovary.

[Alisamer]

55 minutes ago, Jilltoo said:

 

New studies show vaccine really doesn’t help prevent long term covid, maybe 15%. 
 

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/vaccines-offer-little-protection-long-covid-study-finds-rcna30467

That's 15% more chance than you'd have without the vaccine.

50 minutes ago, Howl said:

I'll point out that it prevents long term covid if it keeps you from getting covid in the first place, so the prevention rate is the effective rate of the vaccine against covid infection. 

Plus this. 

I don't get the reluctance against vaccines if someone is not allergic to a component of the vaccine. They can only help, and frankly every little bit helps when there's a pandemic. 

If you've touched some dog poop and it's on your hand and all you've got is a leaf and a quarter of a bottle of water, you're going to wipe off your hand on that leaf and rinse with the water, even if it won't remove all the poop! A little is better than nothing.

[Dandruff]

5 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

I don't get the reluctance against vaccines if someone is not allergic to a component of the vaccine. They can only help, and frankly every little bit helps when there's a pandemic.

I was very worried I might be allergic to the vaccine (since I'm allergic in general), but was more worried about COVID-19.  I chose to accept the risk of the vaccine and am now quadruple-vaxxed.  Waiting for a more tailored vaccine for my 5th. 

I believe that the folks who are eligible but refuse to be vaxxed should be at the bottom of medical triage, and also bear some additional costs, since they have chosen to accept the additional risk of getting and spreading the virus.

[Smash!]

28 minutes ago, Jilltoo said:

New studies show vaccine really doesn’t help prevent long term covid, maybe 15%. 
 

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/vaccines-offer-little-protection-long-covid-study-finds-rcna30467

The problem with Long Covid is that it‘s an umbrella term for several different post-acute syndromes that hopefully will get their own names in the future. This is also my issue with such studies because they usually put all those syndromes together.

Personally I‘m most scared of the autoimmune form of Long Covid that is essentially ME/CFS. In order to get that you need to be really sick, like a bad cold that knocks you out for 1-2 weeks. If you are vaccinated and therefore only have very mild symptoms like a sore throat then it‘s unlikely you develop that form of Long Covid. This is why I got my 2nd booster despite not being in a classic risk group.

Of course there are other forms of Long Covid but in my opinion the most debilitating one is LC that leads to ME/CFS. If my memory is worse or I don‘t have my taste back completely then it sucks but I can go on with my life with minor modifications. Whereas with ME/CFS a big part of your life is usually gone.

 

[FiveAcres]

10 minutes ago, Smash! said:

 

Of course there are other forms of Long Covid but in my opinion the most debilitating one is LC that leads to ME/CFS. If my memory is worse or I don‘t have my taste back completely then it sucks but I can go on with my life with minor modifications. Whereas with ME/CFS a big part of your life is usually gone.

 

CDC page for ME/CFS (Myalgic Encephalomyelitis/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome)

https://www.cdc.gov/me-cfs/about/index.html

[neuroticcat]

Why do we think none of the Bates got the vaccine? I seem to remember insta posts with moms - Carlin and Josie IIRC - talking about after their babies' well visits having got shots? I think even the Duggars had a few episodes with Josei and some M kids getting jabs?

I do know in some circles the rhetoric was completely antivax, and I wonder if, in those cases, any fundies secretly got the vaccine or did it on the DL. 

[llucie]

27 minutes ago, neuroticcat said:

Why do we think none of the Bates got the vaccine? I seem to remember insta posts with moms - Carlin and Josie IIRC - talking about after their babies' well visits having got shots? I think even the Duggars had a few episodes with Josei and some M kids getting jabs?

I do know in some circles the rhetoric was completely antivax, and I wonder if, in those cases, any fundies secretly got the vaccine or did it on the DL. 

Yes the Bates are not anti-vax. I think a few of them probably are vaccinated for Covid and just not mentioning it not to alienate their fanbase, although they definetely were anti-mask and super-spreaders.

[Smash!]

58 minutes ago, Smash! said:

Personally I‘m most scared of the autoimmune form of Long Covid that is essentially ME/CFS. In order to get that you need to be really sick, like a bad cold that knocks you out for 1-2 weeks. If you are vaccinated and therefore only have very mild symptoms like a sore throat then it‘s unlikely you develop that form of Long Covid. This is why I got my 2nd booster despite not being in a classic risk group.

I should have included sources for my claims (thanks for reminding me @FiveAcres) Most of it is from the Fatigue Centrum of Charité Berlin (unfortunately only in German) Their head, Carmen Scheibenbogen, is one of the few experts on ME/CFS. The center also offers a Long Covid office hour. Carmen Scheibenbogen together with neurologist Christiana Franke was guest at the well known podcast "Coronavirus Update" where they discussed all things Long Covid (Script (in German). A few questions translated under spoiler

Spoiler

So far, there are quite different figures on this,
how many people suffer from long covid after a SARS-CoV-2 infection. The results of various studies range from ten to 40 percent. Which figure do you think is realistic?

Yes, that is one of the questions that is most interesting,
but it's also not easy to answer. These
many studies, they are often based on a pre
a pre-selection of patients. Of course, that always depends
on what kind of consultation you have, what kind of study you have.
what kind of study you have. Ultimately, really good
really good figures can only be obtained if the entire
population as a whole. And such studies are
there have only been a few. But there are some. One
look at England, for example. There are
the Office of National Statistics there is
of several hundred thousand people with covid who have the
Covid patients, who have also documented the disease
documented by PCR or an antibody test, and these patients are now
antibody test, and who are now also observing these patients over an
over a longer period of time. And there you have
relatively good numbers. There was also a very recent
overview. According to this, one can assume
that about one in 40 suffers from Long Covid, if you look
the entire population or if you only consider those who are infected.
or if you only consider those who are infected
infected, there is also an estimated number of unreported cases,
but then you get to about ten percent.
I think that ten percent of people with Long Covid is a figure that is relatively high,
is a figure that is relatively reliable.

[...]

Carmen Scheibenbogen
So in the elderly, it's at least two-thirds,
who have Long Covid, who have been in intensive care with us.
in the intensive care unit. But of course, proportionally, there are
seen, they are much fewer, which is why they are not so
so they don't carry that much weight. And with the younger ones, I think,
I think you can work with the ten percent.
And we don't usually talk about asymptomatic
asymptomatic, but they are already, even if one speaks of
we are talking about a mild covid, people who have been
were mostly quite ill.
Beke Schulmann
So like a flu.
Carmen Scheibenbogen
Exactly, like a proper cold or flu.
And not only that they were sick, but it was
often courses of illness over two, three weeks.

Spoiler

How decisive is it, then, whether I, as an infected person
had a high viral load, Mrs. Scheibenbogen. Is
anything known about this?

Carmen Scheibenbogen
Let's come back to the risk factors. There
there have already been some studies. And there is a large study, for example, that has shown
that the level of the SARS-CoV-2 viral load during the acute
during acute infection is a risk factor for the development of
to develop a post-Covid syndrome. Interestingly,
however, EBV reactivation, i.e., also the
EBV virus was detected in a proportion of patients....

Beke Schulmann
The Epstein-Barr virus, which is also known as Pfeiffersches
glandular fever.

Carmen Scheibenbogen
Exactly, the Epstein-Barr virus was detected in some of the patients.
of the patients. It is important to know that
that this is a virus that almost all of us also carry, i.e. a herpes
herpes virus, but it usually hides in the body and does not cause any
hides in the body, does not cause any symptoms,
but can become active during infections. And one
seen that not only were there more EBV viruses in those
during the acute illness, who then developed post-covid syndrome.
developed post-covid syndrome, but that you can also measure
antibodies can be measured, which also indicate that
that EBV reactivates. There I can also perhaps
again in connection with mechanisms, what this can actually mean.
mechanisms, what it actually means that EBV reactivates.
EBV reactivates. We know of other risk factors
and in our study we have seen patients who were actually healthy
were actually healthy until the onset of the disease,
in other words, they had hardly any previous illnesses. And
we also looked again: Are there also
immunological factors? Because the immune system
plays a very important role in how well we cope with such an
with such an infection. And we have indeed seen that
that we find immunodeficiencies in some of the patients.
immunodeficiencies. And interestingly enough
mainly a deficiency of complement factor, which is called
called mannose-binding lectin. That's a complement factor,
that helps us when we're dealing with a new...
with a new pathogen. It helps us to
to bind it, to neutralize it more quickly. And if you have
deficiency, then you run the risk of not being able to cope
not be able to cope with viral infections as quickly.
We have found this deficiency in 25 percent of
of those who have developed post-Covid syndrome.
syndrome. In line with this, there was also a study
from Zurich that also showed: If you have lower
immunoglobulins, they have described this for the IgM
IgG3, which are different forms of such immunoglobulins.
forms of such immunoglobulins or antibodies, then
antibodies, then you also have a higher risk,
of developing post-Covid syndrome. And then what is
most obvious, of course, is that there are significantly
more women than men. So it's about twice as
often women. And that can also point to the immune system
system, because we know that women often have a more active
have a more active immune system, and that this more active
more active immune system also brings with it the risk that one may
that, as a result of an infection, you may not be able to return to a normal
back into a normal, balanced state as a result of an infection.

And this more active
immune system can then also bring with it a risk that one
that one suffers from inflammations for a longer period of time or develops
develop autoimmune reactions.

Spoiler

This already gives us the picture - this is a big
term - long covid, post covid, which includes the clinical picture of
of people who, on the one hand
who, on the one hand, can no longer do anything at all
and who have to sleep many more hours a day than before.
than before. But it also includes the clinical picture
of patients who perhaps "just can't smell any more".
can no longer smell. Shouldn't this then be better
differentiated? That is also important
important for people who have severe cases of Long
or post covid.

Carmen Scheibenbogen
People are already trying to pigeonhole it a bit.
pigeonholes. This is also very important for
research into the mechanisms, that one also first tries to
first of all to try, on the basis of the symptoms, to
to define subtypes from this large umbrella term post-Covid syndrome.
sub-types. And what we can already define relatively well
is the chronic fatigue syndrome, which is possibly the most
which is possibly the most severe form of post-Covid syndrome.
is. It is also relatively easy to distinguish
those patients in whom abnormalities are found in the organ
in the organ diagnostics. There are also
younger patients who, for example, develop chronic lung
develop a chronic lung disease, for example, or
myocarditis, an inflammation of the heart muscle.
developed. Or, as I'm sure Ms. Franke
can add, there are also some who have neurological diseases or
who have neurological diseases or classic autoimmune
classic autoimmune diseases that are known.

 

 

[CanadianMamam]

5 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

There was a fundie who caught Covid last year and miscarried. It was Olivia Plath’s sister. She’s not big on social media. But she did say she had a miscarriage when she caught Covid. So you would think it was linked. Of course miscarriages happen without Covid. So I imagine no one could say for sure. 

I caught influenza when I was 14 weeks pregnant and they were worried I was going to miscarry because if the strain on my body and how dehydrated I was. I would. It be surprised if Covid caused miscarriage. 

3 hours ago, llucie said:

Yes the Bates are not anti-vax. I think a few of them probably are vaccinated for Covid and just not mentioning it not to alienate their fanbase, although they definetely were anti-mask and super-spreaders.

I do think some of them got it. Lawson is a big one, thoguh I doubt he'd admit it to his followers but I could see him getting it just to make his life easier with the constant travel. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

I just want to throw out there that a lot of people who get their kids all the usual shots, but are completely against the Covid vaccine. Jill Rod for example. 

[Keys]

8 hours ago, Smash! said:

@Keys Thank you for everything you did during the pandemic. It must have been hell at times.

Congrats on your pregnancy! I‘m sure your babe will be just fine. 

Gosh I was so mad at the Swiss version of the CDC for their hesitation to recommend the vaccine for pregnant people. With our infection rate it felt like madness waiting for hypothetical side effects to occur when pregnancy meant those people were automatically high risk and the risk for miscarriage/stillbirth increases so much.         

I get the confusion from those who are pregnant. This is why official bodies and doctors have to send very clear messages. There are always circumstances where it‘s better to not get the vaccine. But to me it‘s important to weigh up those risks against the risks of a possible Covid infection. 

Thank you. 💜 the most difficult time so far has been the last 6 months during omicron, mostly due to growing misinformation and a widespread attitude here + among a few family members that people are “done” with the pandemic, getting a booster, and/or taking any precautions. It worries me when babe is here in a few weeks about her being exposed, but I’m hoping she’ll have some good protection between my booster and my infection. If we become eligible for a fourth dose here, we will go for it. Though I do also foresee there being a different vaccine made (hopefully soon?) that’s either variant-specific or longer-lasting. They’re working on a nasal one right now that sounds cool and promising. 
 

And I totally agree with you re: the messaging around vaccination in pregnancy. Pregnancy is already a time where a lot of people are more cautious and hesitant about different things. It was a disservice to the public to exclude pregnant and breastfeeding people from the initial trials. And then of course social media and the spread of horrible misinformation has not helped. I take a lot of time to counsel my patients about vaccination in pregnancy, and all the benefits. I recommend the booster for everyone, too (like you mentioned, some very very uncommon contraindications, but this is few and far between). There are also some wonderful social media accounts run by physicians that post reliable and up to date info that I refer people to, too. I’ve stayed on top of all the vaccine research diligently and I can’t state how extremely grateful I am for the vaccines. 

[Keys]

7 hours ago, neuroticcat said:

Why do we think none of the Bates got the vaccine? I seem to remember insta posts with moms - Carlin and Josie IIRC - talking about after their babies' well visits having got shots? I think even the Duggars had a few episodes with Josei and some M kids getting jabs?

I do know in some circles the rhetoric was completely antivax, and I wonder if, in those cases, any fundies secretly got the vaccine or did it on the DL. 

I think it was speculation because we saw them so often not wearing masks (or wearing them incorrectly), still having very large gatherings/church services during peak waves, etc. 

2 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I just want to throw out there that a lot of people who get their kids all the usual shots, but are completely against the Covid vaccine. Jill Rod for example. 

Oh wow, I actually thought she was totally anti-vaccine/anti-medical care in general!

[just_ordinary]

 

11 hours ago, neuroticcat said:

Why do we think none of the Bates got the vaccine? I seem to remember insta posts with moms - Carlin and Josie IIRC - talking about after their babies' well visits having got shots? I think even the Duggars had a few episodes with Josei and some M kids getting jabs?

I do know in some circles the rhetoric was completely antivax, and I wonder if, in those cases, any fundies secretly got the vaccine or did it on the DL. 

I don’t think the Anti-Vaxx crowd is the real problem. At least were I am from. It’s still a small group. Some are „only“ critical of vaccines for children, while being completely vaccinated themselves or delay the vaccination schedule or refuse only some vaccines. Our biggest problem are people that are generally pro-vaccination refusing to get it and additionally making a big cahoot about having their “human rights violated” by having to wear a mask or not being allowed in a restaurant otherwise. I will say there was a lot of bad communication and some rules are plain stupid (it did sound as if the vaccination would make you immune at first, than that you would be basically immune and wouldn’t get bad symptoms with two…, you can serve food in the hotel restaurant to hotel guests but not to people from the outside, lots of exceptions that seem completely arbitrary) so it’s fine to ask some hard questions. Additionally, I think we as a country are in general more hesitant, so a vaccine without a 15-20 year long term study looks automatically suspicious. Sadly, this unleashed the craziness in many people. I also think if the debate would have been more balanced it might have gone a bit differently. Here it’s government and big Pharma against citizens. In the US it seems it’s a Democrats against Republicans/ government against citizens thing. 
Also- many countries are easing up (no masks etc), while case numbers are still high, new variants are still on the go and it seems even a mild infection can have pretty severe long term affects (I wonder what a Long COVID Diagnosis will mean in terms of how to diagnose, health insurance and disability insurance - my guess people will have to fight them in court for a long time). Other countries opened up earlier and doing just as well. People will ask if this was the right course of action and sadly their arguments are not all bad (I personally think we should have been stricter earlier and not have eased up last spring/summer). But I digress. 
If the Duggar and Bates refused the vaccination it’s very probably not because they are against vaccination or modern medicine but because of the big bad government. But I don’t think anyone openly spoke against it. But the groups they associate with did. It a good guess they tow the party line but it’s also possible they smiled and turned around to get a jab and stayed quiet about it. They have a tendency to display the complete opposite of what they actually do. Do as I say not as I do at it’s finest.

Edited May 28, 2022 by just_ordinary

[marmalade]

I thought Lawson was openly anti-vax, but I could be mistaken.

[MaryOrMartha]

I just finished watching their latest update where they show one of Carlin's episodes. WOW! I hope she'll be ok

[OldFadedStar]

18 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I just want to throw out there that a lot of people who get their kids all the usual shots, but are completely against the Covid vaccine. Jill Rod for example. 

This. Even state wide. 

Mississippi is one of two states that has very strict vaccination requirements for school aged children. No exemptions except for some medical. This is also the state that has Tate Reeves as the governor who is about as right wing as you can get. Reeves is too stupid to legit harm the states unlike two other high profile governors...