(CW&CSA) Josh & Anna 52: Sweeping Crackers for a Lower Sentence

[samurai_sarah]

With thanks to @Smee for suggesting the thread title, carry on from here:

 

[Cam]

The prosecution states what the support letters fail to acknowledge about Josh:

Spoiler

his sexual proclivity for prepubescent girls

 This is a court document, not a gossip rag like The Sun, putting Josh's deviant behavior into plain, unequivocal words, and I do so love the prosecution for blatantly spelling it out. 

Teenage Josh molested five young girls. A stint in Jesus jail, getting married, supposedly having joyfully available sex on demand from his wife and becoming a father to many children has not changed his pedophelia tendencies. 

We don't even have to go as far back as Hitler or Bundy to see that some people can mask their evil ways by doing good deeds. Harvey Weinstein:  "pledged five million dollars to the University of Southern California film school toward a scholarship fund for female filmmakers. (The school is reportedly rejecting the pledge.) He also championed Hillary Clinton’s bid to be the first female President of the United States, and donated to the campaigns of a number of other women, including Senator Elizabeth Warren. (Both women donated the money to charities.)"

I'm short on time, but others like Jerry Epstein, Les Moonves and Cosby also funded altruistic endeavors.

[imokit]

We don't know that JB didn't get his kids to write letters of support for Josh.  We only know what made the cut for the defense lawyers to use.

It may be that the defence felt a letter from Jessa (because JB doesn't have the sway to make Jill, Jinger or Joy write) would hurt things more than help.  The defence might feel that a letter from one of his victims saying how wonderful Josh was, would make the judge feel that Josh is part of brainwashing cult and may backfire.  Likewise a letter from one of the boys or Jana (I'm including Jana with the boys as she's the only female duggar above 18 Josh didn't abuse, so a letter from her would be different to a letter from one of her sisters) may also push the judge remind.  Josh is a wonderful brother and so kind and helpful and a great leader and here's a childhood story of him being nice, won't fly with a judge who acknowledges in court that Josh molested siblings.

The molestation will overshadow any letter the siblings send, which is why M shouldn't have written either.

All the letters were rubbish, but I think that a duggerling letter would have flown extra badly with the judge.

[fundiefan]

I'm reminded of Kyle Rittenhouse and his white supremacist, GOP fan bois. "He isn't a killer, he was cleaning the graffiti off churches for god's sake!"

And Charles Manson played guitar in church. What's your point? 

People are so narrow minded that they fail to acknowledge that two things can be true at the same time and that one thing does not negate the other. 

Kyle Rittenhouse cleaned graffiti off the church AND he killed two men. 

Charles Manson played guitar in church AND was the mastermind of 7 murders.

Joshua Duggar sweeps crackers & builds forts for his kids AND (as the prosecution put it) has sexual proclivity for prepubescent girls.

[Jana814]

Great name for the thread! 

[Alisamer]

17 minutes ago, fundiefan said:

I'm reminded of Kyle Rittenhouse and his white supremacist, GOP fan bois. "He isn't a killer, he was cleaning the graffiti off churches for god's sake!"

And Charles Manson played guitar in church. What's your point? 

People are so narrow minded that they fail to acknowledge that two things can be true at the same time and that one thing does not negate the other. 

Kyle Rittenhouse cleaned graffiti off the church AND he killed two men. 

Charles Manson played guitar in church AND was the mastermind of 7 murders.

Joshua Duggar sweeps crackers & builds forts for his kids AND (as the prosecution put it) has sexual proclivity for prepubescent girls.

I think in this case the Fundie tendency toward black and white thinking contributes to this. To them, there's only "good" and "evil". You're "saved" or you aren't. You are going to heaven or you are going to hell. It's either eternal wonderfulness or eternal suffering. 

When you think that, I imagine it IS hard to see the shades of gray. And they, particularly the children, have got to be confused. Josh is "saved", he is a professing Christian. He was raised following all the correct rules. If you're saved, you go to heaven. But if you sin, you go to hell. Josh is saved and committed vile, horrible awful sins. 

The justice system has levels - Death row, solitary, maximum security, medium security, on down to parole. Lots of shades of gray in there. But these kids, SOTDRT educated, just know heaven and hell. Black and white. I cannot imagine how confused and wierded out the M kids must be. Is their dad a good man of god? If so, why are people saying he committed a crime? Is he going to heaven? Is he going to hell? Those are the only two options!

[viii]

37 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

I think in this case the Fundie tendency toward black and white thinking contributes to this. To them, there's only "good" and "evil". You're "saved" or you aren't. You are going to heaven or you are going to hell. It's either eternal wonderfulness or eternal suffering. 

When you think that, I imagine it IS hard to see the shades of gray. And they, particularly the children, have got to be confused. Josh is "saved", he is a professing Christian. He was raised following all the correct rules. If you're saved, you go to heaven. But if you sin, you go to hell. Josh is saved and committed vile, horrible awful sins. 

The justice system has levels - Death row, solitary, maximum security, medium security, on down to parole. Lots of shades of gray in there. But these kids, SOTDRT educated, just know heaven and hell. Black and white. I cannot imagine how confused and wierded out the M kids must be. Is their dad a good man of god? If so, why are people saying he committed a crime? Is he going to heaven? Is he going to hell? Those are the only two options!

Also add in the confusion that you can commit whatever crime you want but if you repent then it's wiped clean and like it never happened. No wonder real life consequences are confusing to fundie children as they grow up. 

[waltraute]

I don't know what Amy's motivation was for the public letter. I believe Anna will see it at some point in time, if she hasn't already, and I don't think it will make a difference for her, nor do I think it will help the M kids at all. However, I believe that letter has value as a public condemnation of JB and Michelle from one of their own, even if Amy didn't call them out personally. JB is all about controlling their narrative in a public setting and now he has lost control and it is very public. I'm glad Amy spoke out and I hope that others do too, though I am doubtful it will happen in the way that I would wish. Maybe a few vague statements will trickle in after sentencing.  This would be better coming from one or more of Josh's siblings, most especially from his brothers, but right now I'll take the 'he's goddamn guilty and everyone should be embracing his guilt' statements from whatever the source.

[neuroticcat]

1 hour ago, imokit said:

We don't know that JB didn't get his kids to write letters of support for Josh.  We only know what made the cut for the defense lawyers to use.….(I'm including Jana with the boys as she's the only female duggar above 18 Josh didn't abuse, so a letter from her would be different to a letter from one of her sisters)

All the letters were rubbish, but I think that a duggerling letter would have flown extra badly with the judge.

Agree with this - there could have been others. Disagree that we can say definitely Josh didn’t abuse anyone else. Average age of abuse disclosure is something like 25 years after incident, and I’d be shocked if any Duggarling has a grasp on definitions of abuse or scope of abusive behavior. Maybe Josh did not abuse anyone else *in the same ways as named by his other victims* but I am skeptical. 

[nokidsmom]

Quoting @Giraffe from the last thread:

Quote

I get where you’re coming from but it’s not as though this is the first time Anna’s experienced information that could lead her to wonder who the hell she married. At this point she’s had years to realize she both: married a scumbag and has a father who would rather see her remain married than get divorced, no matter what.

With all of that behind her she chose to stay (and have yet another child with him) when he was arrested on suspicion of child predation. 

I don’t think it’s us getting ahead of ourselves so much as us wondering, if she hasn’t left even after sitting through a trial and him being convicted of being a child predator, what the hell would he have to do for her to decide divorce is acceptable?

I think at this point especially, it's perfectly reasonable to wonder just what it would take for Anna to consider divorce.   It's an extreme situation IMHO that she's facing: between the molestations, Ashley Madison, then getting caught with CSAM for which he finally faced legal repercussions.    I think it's safe to say that any ONE of these incidents would have been a relationship deal breaker at some point, but here she's sitting on a mountain of them, and yet she still defends him.   Even if it's purely for show, there's a point where even doing that is bad optics and she hit that point a long time ago.  Case in point: when she had her next child after Joshley got out of Jesus Jail (forget which kid tbh) I saw people expressing pure shock over how she could have another kid with him.  And that was before he got caught with the CSAM.   

I get that she maybe has to do what she has to do, perhaps to placate JB, perhaps to ensure there's a roof over her family heads.  But I am skeptical on that.  She's so obviously besotted with Josh in spite all of that has happened.  She was so obviously angry over his conviction.  She has bought into his innocence, hook, line and sinker and I highly doubt she will ever consider/seek a separation from him much less a divorce.

I would like to think she might use Joshley's prison time to get her ducks in a row because she's basically separated from him anyway, then hit him with a separation or divorce action when he gets out, but I really think she's going to go the martyred wife route anxiously awaiting her scumbag husband's return.  I get she's in one of the worst positions a spouse can be in, but good lord, to see the denial/delusion or whatever is going on with her is just astounding.  

Edited May 19, 2022 by nokidsmom

[Dandruff]

I wonder whether JB had Anna sign an NDA and/or other limiting contract at some point.  Josh's behavior was outed to the media years ago and JB would have been aware of how damaging Anna could potentially be to the brand if she spoke out or left.

[fundiewatch]

Anna got married young and became a Duggar. Almost everything she saw of the world was for the show and with the fam. I think she has bonded so deeply that she can’t fathom leaving. I think that doubling down on denial is what’s coming up. Practically speaking she has no income and seven young children. She has nowhere to go and too many rich memories from the big house and travels far and wide. She’s still grieving the show. 

[nokidsmom]

26 minutes ago, Dandruff said:

I wonder whether JB had Anna sign an NDA and/or other limiting contract at some point.  Josh's behavior was outed to the media years ago and JB would have been aware of how damaging Anna could potentially be to the brand if she spoke out or left.

I think this might be possible if Anna was showing serious signs of wavering on Josh, for example, considering her brother's offer of help to leave or something like that.    While she was in obvious turmoil, I never got the sense from the statements she made that leaving was on the table for her.  On the contrary, I think she was doing some serious mental gymnastics on herself on wanting to stay and not letting her feelings on the whole sordid business take over, hence the "turning a mess into a disaster" statement from her.  

[Alisamer]

53 minutes ago, fundiewatch said:

Anna got married young and became a Duggar. Almost everything she saw of the world was for the show and with the fam. I think she has bonded so deeply that she can’t fathom leaving. I think that doubling down on denial is what’s coming up. Practically speaking she has no income and seven young children. She has nowhere to go and too many rich memories from the big house and travels far and wide. She’s still grieving the show. 

The question is, will she sit and grieve for the show the whole time if he's in prison for 15 - 20 years?  Where's that going to get her? Sitting at home and doing JB's bidding isn't going to get her travel and fame, or money, either.

I think for now, she's just the dutiful loving wife. But if he's in the federal pen for 15 years, several hours away and she gets used to not having him around, at some point she might start to think "hey, wait a minute."

It might not be until she finds out he might be coming home soon. After she's managed so long without him and now he's going to come throw a wrench into her life? That might be what it takes for her to decide she wants things to be different.

It's Anna. Chances are she'll just keep doing what she is doing, and welcome him home when he gets out. But I'd like to see her figure things out on her own, have a good life without him there, and become an independent person. 

I think it'll be better for her to stay married to him for a while and essentially live as a single mom for a while than for her to divorce him and end up finding some fundie dude looking for a built-in family and housemaid to marry. 

She needs to experience life under her own umbrella, not someone else's. And JB's might not be reliable long term.

[nokidsmom]

38 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

I think for now, she's just the dutiful loving wife. But if he's in the federal pen for 15 years, several hours away and she gets used to not having him around, at some point she might start to think "hey, wait a minute."

At this point, Anna is harboring hope that Joshley will get a reduced sentence.  And that maybe his conviction will get tossed out on appeal, though I doubt she realizes how long that process takes even if it succeeds.  I doubt she's even considered the prospect of him being away for something like 15 years and if that's the length of sentence he gets it's going to take a very long time for her to wrap her head around that.   

But very possible that in spite of herself, she adjusts and finds that there are advantages to not having a cheating, untrustworthy, deviant husband around.   No worrying about where he is, what he's doing, is he behaving himself or not?   I can't imagine the stress Anna was under over the last several years.   Might realize how much trouble Joshley was to have around and the lighter emotional load on her she has even if she misses him.   She will probably just have to go through it, do the martyred wife routine, possibly get tired of it and then she might do something.

38 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

I think it'll be better for her to stay married to him for a while and essentially live as a single mom for a while than for her to divorce him and end up finding some fundie dude looking for a built-in family and housemaid to marry. 

She's basically separated and living like a single mom now, the one possible advantage is that she hasn't gone the legal separation/divorce route to get there or deal with any associated social stigma (re: divorce) from her fundie community.  It's more like she's a widow.  She has a living husband but not one who is physically present in her life and won't be for a long time.  She has a roof over her and her kids' heads, financial support from in-laws, assistance with child care.   The kids are safe from their dad for the duration.  From a financial, emotional and safety standpoint her situation is not that bad.    She could bide her time but I think people find Joshley's actions so repulsive as to wonder how anyone would want to remain married for another minute, therefore I understand Amy's outrage, telling her to divorce him now.  But stepping back to consider Anna's real prospects, especially with 7 kids, and Joshley is off to prison anyway, it is practical for her to just stay married if only to continue to get the support she's getting.   Now how long that support will continue under JB with show money dried up is another question but for now she's actually in a good place as far as the basics go for both her and her family.   And she will just have to mourn the loss of the perks.   And she might just have to pine for Josh for years on end just to get tired of it.  

Edited May 19, 2022 by nokidsmom

[neuroticcat]

I have no idea if Anna will leave, but I do take hope that other fundie wives with less resources and support have taken their children, left, and started over. It *is* possible, and from all accounts those women were deep in the cultlike mindset until they had their line-in-the-sand moment. Anna's should have come long ago, but who knows? Maybe it will be small thing that finally helps her turn toward the light.

Edited May 19, 2022 by neuroticcat
typos

[Expectopatronus]

2 hours ago, fundiewatch said:

Anna got married young and became a Duggar. Almost everything she saw of the world was for the show and with the fam. I think she has bonded so deeply that she can’t fathom leaving. I think that doubling down on denial is what’s coming up. Practically speaking she has no income and seven young children. She has nowhere to go and too many rich memories from the big house and travels far and wide. She’s still grieving the show. 

There is definitely that and the brainwashing from the time she was born. She 100% "knows" that as Christians, they are under attack and will be hated for their beliefs. Of course the feds didn't accept the exculpatory evidence of the router; they hate anyone Godly. Of course the world is convinced of his guilt; they are smacking their lips with pleasure that a Christian has been caught with CSAM because they loooove to see a Godly person fall. 

In all fairness to Anna, there have been cases where a person looked guiltier than sin, was convicted and through the hard work of their supporters was eventually rightfully exonerated. If I truly, truly believed my spouse had been wrongfully convicted, I wouldn't divorce them either. To be clear, I am not saying that I think Josh is innocent. I don't think the courts are gunning for White, Christian men and I don't have enough computer knowledge to have an opinion on whether or not it is even remotely possible that the images could have been planted. I personally think the evidence does indicate guilt but if Anna believes with her whole heart that Josh didn't do it then I can understand why she hasn't left. 

[Bobology]

1 hour ago, nokidsmom said:

It's more like she's a widow. 

I wonder if she'll find a perverted chap who needs to show everyone just how great he is and give her, or fund her, $2000/month.

[imokit]

5 hours ago, neuroticcat said:

Agree with this - there could have been others. Disagree that we can say definitely Josh didn’t abuse anyone else. Average age of abuse disclosure is something like 25 years after incident, and I’d be shocked if any Duggarling has a grasp on definitions of abuse or scope of abusive behavior. Maybe Josh did not abuse anyone else *in the same ways as named by his other victims* but I am skeptical. 

Oh I'm not saying Josh didn't abuse anyone else.  He's a sexual predator. He's definitely done more than he's been prosecuted for. I don't want to know if its all online or if there has been more hands on things.  He did not have 3 discreet incidents of badness with perfect behaviour in between (the molestations, Ashley Madison, the CSAM), he was doing other things in the meantime and just hiding it better and having it covered up by his family.

I'm referring to what's established legal fact.  It's now legal fact that Josh molested 4 of the 5 oldest girls, and which ones they were.  Its also legal fact that he looked at CSAM.  From a letter/judge point of view, the judge can consider them.  He can consider the risk Josh will pose to the public and his family.  He can't consider if he molested anyone else and didn't get caught.

 

[Dandruff]

42 minutes ago, Bobology said:

I wonder if she'll find a perverted chap who needs to show everyone just how great he is and give her, or fund her, $2000/month.

It would be better than some Josh fan club popping up while he's in prison, sending him $$s and letters of support.

[Bastet]

 Whether Anna believes Josh or not, she must—once again—feel deeply humiliated. And I find it hard to believe he’s been  very pleasant to live with. His frustrations with his own life can’t have made him any less smug, after all. People don’t work that way. My guess—and it’s only a guess—is that sweeping crumbs aside, he is rude and condescending to her. Once she knows that he won’t be back for a good long time (until she has a house full of teenagers!) maybe a sense of peace will settle on her. What effect might that have?

Edited May 19, 2022 by Bastet

[Hazelbunny]

I hope somebody puts a photo of all 23 (24?) Duggar Grandkids in the Judges Files....  

[AussieKrissy]

I wonder if Anna will put her families life on hold (not that they have much of one) for example ohhh Kenzie you can’t get married until Daddy is out and can walk you down the aisle… 

I can’t think of much else because that really is their one main goal in life that I can think off.. 

but you can get my drift. Is this family going to be more stagnated waiting for Josh’s release? 

[GuineaPigCourtship]

2 hours ago, AussieKrissy said:

Kenzie you can’t get married until Daddy is out and can walk you down the aisle… 

Ugh, the thought of putting off the rest of her life so that particular piece of trash can give her away makes me want to vomit.

[fundiefan]

I have to wonder how much luck they'll have marrying off their kids. I mean, Josh's brothers are still marrying post scandal, but they're brothers. It's easier to disassociate and in fact it's a good thing to not hold his brother's responsible for his actions. But, Josh's kids? The fruit of his loins? Does anyone think there will be seven families lining up to marry their kids to a Josh Duggar kid in the future? I would have serious reservations if my hypothetical kid came home & said he/she was dating the child of a serial child abuse doing time or recently released from federal prison, I don't think kids should be held accountable for their father's action anymore than brother's should be - but the connection is closer & as in laws you'd share grandkids & have to associate with him....nope. And, going back to what has been said, the M kids are begin told their father is a godly man - so they will have a very skewed idea of what that means as adults. I would be very scared as a parent of what they think it means to be "godly".