Jeremiah & Hannah 2: Flight Instructor Jeremiah Married Hannah Wissman: Exclusive to US!

[Bobology]

6 minutes ago, ifosterkittens said:

Jana grew up with Josh and knew (at least to some extent) the nature of his crimes when he was a teenager. She saw how her parents handled it, and she may have worried what secrets other parents are hiding about their sons, or the secrets those guys are hiding.

Given that the Duggars believe, or at least purport to believe, that sibling molestation is common* in their circle, this is a good point. Sure, the other older daughters (two who were molested by Josh and one who is assumed to have been) chose to marry. They are all different people with different inward feelings and reactions. Jana was likely in a position to see, hear and know more than the younger siblings. I can see her being extremely cautious about men.

*common in their circle... I think that was nothing more than a line JB and Michelle used with the daughters who were molested in an effort to gaslight them into believing what happened to them was no big deal... forgive and forget. I wonder if Michelle forced any of the molested daughters to give up a prized possession to Josh, or forced them to be more "serving" to him. It's only a thought, but... 🤮

[imokit]

27 minutes ago, Bobology said:

*common in their circle... I think that was nothing more than a line JB and Michelle used with the daughters who were molested in an effort to gaslight them into believing what happened to them was no big deal... forgive and forget. I wonder if Michelle forced any of the molested daughters to give up a prized possession to Josh, or forced them to be more "serving" to him. It's only a thought, but... 🤮

Unfortunately I have to disagree with you on the common in their circle being a JB and M line.  Their circle produces Wisdom Booklets on what to do if a child molests his siblings.  That's not normal.  Communities shouldn't need that.

They also set things up to enable abuse.

Girls must be modest.  They are responsible for inappropriate thoughts in men.  Conversely men have minimal responsibility for their actions - the girls led them to sin.  Toddler girls running around naked before bath time can be held responsible for inappropriate thoughts in their brothers.  Boys and men shouldn't have to change diapers because female infants can lead to bad thoughts.  - Source Wisdom booklets.

Then you have sin being flat, and sexual repression.  If all sin is bad and god hates sin, then there is little distinction between little bad - adult porn and big bad - non consensual activity. Either one leads to hell.  There is also no sexual outlet, you can't even have a wank over playboy, because that's sex and you will be in big trouble. Big trouble for self pleasure, big trouble for sex - little incentive to keep to the small stuff.

Lets not forget obedience.  Children are taught from infancy to obey without question.  If an authority (including an older sibling) tells them to do something they have to do it.  They can't argue with them even if it feels wrong, because they've never been allowed to and no one would listen to them because adults and older siblings are always right.  If you are home-schooled within a specific community then who can you tell who isn't in the family/ community and may believe you and act on it?

I absolutely believe that there is far more child sexual abuse in these sorts of communities than in other populations and it may be one of the few things JB & M are right about.

[neuroticcat]

22 minutes ago, imokit said:

 

I absolutely believe that there is far more child sexual abuse in these sorts of communities than in other populations and it may be one of the few things JB & M are right about.

I absolutely believe these communities foster all kinds of abuse, and it's statistically higher than non-cult communities. I think JB & M's statement about it being "common" was an oopsie kind of "tell" moment. They believe the world is filled with all manner of evil wickedness worse than their communities. So they have no sense of what is normal or not anymore. How could there not be CSA with daughters practicing to be wives for their fathers, young men being told they can't control their lusts, etc. There's no sexual education, no normative relationships to opposite sex, and the parents drawn into this are authoritarian, physically/emotionally/spiritually abusive at the bare minimum and likely have their own issues to be drawn to the cult in the first place. Homeschoolers Anonymous is filled with stories like the Duggars'

I have a harder time believing the comments here saying that Jana would somehow intuitively know to recognize things are "off." Maybe she had protective instincts for younger siblings, but she likely believe whatever her parents told her at the time. Possibly still does, though she's had enough exposure to siblings who've moved out that possibly not. We don't really know how controlled her access to outside perspective is/isn't - whether by her parents or by her own compulsions. However, she has been a JTTH group leader over the years, and her BFF is on staff at IBLP headquarters, so I imagine she has imbibed those beliefs for herself and things she is doing the godly thing.

Why and how would she somehow have adopted a "worldly" perspective and decide to secretly still live at home? Most people don't begin to be able to think critically about their family of origin until they have some external catalyst. They move out, or are around other families and are able to say: wait, that was weird. Maybe they go to college. Or even get married and begin to recognize the inlaws do things differently. But if you're still very much inside the circle only around "like minded", you either don't see that or it doesn't bother you enough to make the change - perhaps you even buy into it wholesale. Yes, they interacted with the crew but it's not like Jana was hanging out alone with worldly people who could've helped her gain a different perspective. She probably was in very controlled interactions and the family encouraged a "ministry" mindset which made it more like missionaries spending time with potential converts.

Jana is 30 with no dependents and some skills. If she is/was deconstructing, she has a lot of options. Way more than many of the SAHDs that have made it out.

Edited September 5, 2022 by neuroticcat

[Bobology]

3 hours ago, imokit said:

Unfortunately I have to disagree with you on the common in their circle being a JB and M line.  Their circle produces Wisdom Booklets on what to do if a child molests his siblings.  That's not normal.  Communities shouldn't need that.

 

This and your other listed reasons the abuse is probably common make sense. I remember now hearing about the wisdom booklet schist in past threads. 

The IBLP bookstore is alive and well but I couldn't see any author credits for the wisdom booklets even though many books at their store have authors credited. They started in the '80s, was Gothard the author or were they written at his behest with his ideas? If he wanted his own perversions to appear normal I could see him having his booklets written in that vein... making perversions look somewhat normal and dealt with in-house.
 

3 hours ago, neuroticcat said:

I absolutely believe these communities foster all kinds of abuse, and it's statistically higher than non-cult communities. I think JB & M's statement about it being "common" was an oopsie kind of "tell" moment.

I hadn't thought of this.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Bobology

[Bobology]

4 hours ago, Bobology said:

I wonder if Michelle forced any of the molested daughters to give up a prized possession to Josh, or forced them to be more "serving" to him. It's only a thought, but... 🤮

Quoting myself, because when I came back and reread it, it could be construed that I meant something sexual and I did not. I meant serving him in ways such as having to prepare Josh's favorite snack for him, doing a chore for him now and then, etc. Similar to how Michelle made Jana give Jessa Jana's music box, or whatever it was, after Jessa was the one who caused the issue. And I can believe that Michelle or JB would have forced the sisters who Josh molested to do things for Josh as a way of showing their forgiveness or whatever BS spin the parents wanted to put on it.

[AussieKrissy]

On 9/5/2022 at 12:56 AM, SorenaJ said:

I’m still curious what happened with Jana and Stephen. None of my business, but I’m still curious. 

and lauren Caldwell to that for me too 

 

[Cults-r-us]

24 minutes ago, AussieKrissy said:

and lauren Caldwell to that for me too 

 

I hope Jana lives at home because that is where she is happy, doing what she wants, surrounded by people (sibs and M-Kids) she loves.

[viii]

On 9/4/2022 at 10:36 PM, Father Son Holy Goat said:

I think Jana will be married one day, after everyone else is married. When there’s no one left to protect, she will leave.

I don't know why some people continue to cling to this line of thinking. Does it make Jana more likeable in your eyes this way?

Jana is no different than her parents. We know from what they have shared that she shares their beliefs, right down to discipline. Jana has spanked her siblings probably more times than their own parents have. She's essentially in charge and I'm not really sure why people think Jana is some great big defender when she is likely one of the most common people harming them. 

And yes, spanking = harms. 

[Ms. Brightside]

In addition to the other great points made above, it is very common for child predators to have been victims of child sexual abuse themselves. If you have an insular community where one adult sexually abuses 10 children, it would stand to reason that some (but certainly not all- I don’t want to imply that by any means) of those children would then go on to do the same, so let’s say you go from one predator to 4, who each abuse 10 themselves…  within a couple of generations you have a much bigger problem than you started with- especially when you add on all the strange power dynamics, sexual oppression, sin flattening, etc mentioned above. Sadly “common” was probably a pretty accurate word choice for Gothard’s followers, a real concern for some of those kids when they’re seeking potential spouses (not sure Jana is in that boat, we have no way to know), and I would be shocked if fundie communities didn’t have significantly higher rates of both abuse victims and abusers among their ranks than the general population. 

[Father Son Holy Goat]

5 hours ago, viii said:

I don't know why some people continue to cling to this line of thinking. Does it make Jana more likeable in your eyes this way?

I’m thinking of what I would do, what I did. It makes sense to me and has nothing to do with making Jana more likable. 

[viii]

6 minutes ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

I’m thinking of what I would do, what I did. It makes sense to me and has nothing to do with making Jana more likable. 

Yes but you can’t apply your line of thinking to Jana. She has been raised in a cult and is fully brainwashed. She doesn’t have the capability of thinking logically like you do. 

[CarrotCake]

On 9/5/2022 at 2:30 PM, Cam said:

I don’t know what Jana’s deal is but tend to lean towards her liking that being the oldest female sibling gives her some authority and clout. Getting married would mean a brand new headship where she had to be under a new and different man’s authority, starting from ground zero. She’s had years of being the wind beneath JB’s wings and she’s comfortable there, likes the stature it brings and doesn’t want to give it up. 

This is the feeling I get as well. She has a lot of freedom (relatively) now. She is in charge of lots of things without full parental responsibility. She can travel and work on her hobbies. Yes, she has to care for her siblings but they are also at an age that the caring is of a completely different level.

Compared to her sisters(-in-law) with multiple small children she has more authority, less responsibility and more time for herself.

[SassyPants]

On 9/7/2022 at 2:28 AM, CarrotCake said:

This is the feeling I get as well. She has a lot of freedom (relatively) now. She is in charge of lots of things without full parental responsibility. She can travel and work on her hobbies. Yes, she has to care for her siblings but they are also at an age that the caring is of a completely different level.

Compared to her sisters(-in-law) with multiple small children she has more authority, less responsibility and more time for herself.

Yep. I’ve said this before, I’d rather have Jana’s life than Kendra’s. Caring for the 5, older minors in the home is probably akin to asking if they all did their school work and chores, and taking 1-2 as chaperones when she goes to WM or the coffee shop drive thru. I doubt she is teaching or actively parenting anyone anymore. Josie will be 13 in Dec., and while parenting 5 teenagers could be brutal, this group comes with completely different issues. 

[CanadianMamam]

I am pretty sure this is Hannah and Jed, so even though they aren't pictured, I imagine that their  spouses were also at the wedding. Which puts the Duggars at four known attending couples (or partial), all connected to Medi-Scam.

[SassyPants]

28 minutes ago, CanadianMamam said:

I am pretty sure this is Hannah and Jed, so even though they aren't pictured, I imagine that their  spouses were also at the wedding. Which puts the Duggars at four known attending couples (or partial), all connected to Medi-Scam.

Is that Josie in the foreground? Is that Alyssa behind her? Wasn’t Alyssa wearing a light brown outer garment? Is that JB to Josie?

Edited October 3, 2022 by SassyPants

[CanadianMamam]

6 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Is that Josie in the foreground? Is that Alyssa behind her? Wasn’t Alyssa wearing a light brown outer garment? Is that JB to Josie?

That is Alyssa but that doesn't look like JB to me and I can't imagine he would be in the front family row. 

Edited October 3, 2022 by CanadianMamam
Comparing photos, not one of the Romeike girls

[SassyPants]

20 minutes ago, CanadianMamam said:

That is Alyssa but that doesn't look like JB to me and I can't imagine he would be in the front family row. 

I didn’t think it really looked like JB, and agree about the front row, but these folks are not known for following established or common guidelines or basic manners, but is that Josie? If it is, who is that man?

[EmiSue]

7 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

I didn’t think it really looked like JB, and agree about the front row, but these folks are not known for following established or common guidelines or basic manners, but is that Josie? If it is, who is that man?

Josie was a bridesmaid, so not her.

[CanadianMamam]

7 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

I didn’t think it really looked like JB, and agree about the front row, but these folks are not known for following established or common guidelines or basic manners, but is that Josie? If it is, who is that man?

I don't think it is Josie. It could be someone from Lydia's side. 

I also saw a Medicorps video with Jer in it, so I think Hannah went to the wedding with Jed and Katey.

Just now, EmiSue said:

Josie was a bridesmaid, so not her.

I think she means Josie Duggar. 

[SassyPants]

Yes, I meant Josie Duggar.

[JermajestyDuggar]

I think it’s likely JB and Michelle went to the wedding and brought Josie along. She seems to get away with a lot more than the other Duggar kids so maybe she decided she wanted to sit up front and no one stopped her. She is the miracle child after all.

[AussieKrissy]

I agree that kid looks so much like Josie D 

but the twin duggar looks like Jed not Jer to me but the girl looks like Hannah not katey 🤷‍♀️

Edited October 4, 2022 by AussieKrissy
Edit to add der that’s what the original poster said about the twins

[Mama Mia]

That definitely looks like Josie Duggar. It’s always so surprising at that age — she looked so little in the last photos of her (maybe in the spring?) - she looks much older here, like the almost teen she is. As to where she is sitting, it’s clearly either quite a bit before, or right after the ceremony, when people are milling about. She might have just sat there for a minute to talk to whoever the girl is next to her. Then moved to a seat near a sibling or her parents.
 

 At most weddings I’ve been to the first couple of rows are closest family — but how would that even work when your siblings, their spouses, and their kids total 50+ people?  Just save the front row for parents and grandparents? 

[Cam]

Someone gonna have to prove that ain’t Josie before I believe it. I see shades of Josiah in that camera stare.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Cam

[CanadianMamam]

On 10/4/2022 at 10:27 AM, AussieKrissy said:

I agree that kid looks so much like Josie D 

but the twin duggar looks like Jed not Jer to me but the girl looks like Hannah not katey 🤷‍♀️

It is Jed. He and Katey went to Lawson's after. I think it is also Hannah and she travelled with Jed and Katey since Jer was in Florida with Medicorps. 

So all the real housewives of MediCorps were there (Gabby, Joy, Abbie, Hannah, Katey, Esther) but only half the husband's: Austen, Jed, Nathan.