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Theobros, Patriarchs, Dominionists, Christofascists et al.


Howl

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Thanks for the summary. It sounds like a foundation that cultivates so much abuse. I have come across it in various forms and it’s very brainwashy as well. Reminds me of all Gothard’s redefinitions. Everything is defined and outlined with Bible verses. Every single action is sin related and fur you to canine. Have already read some horror stories on Twitter.I did not know about the man who died by  suicide b/c of it. How awful! 

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25 minutes ago, neuroticcat said:

Thanks for the summary. It sounds like a foundation that cultivates so much abuse. I have come across it in various forms and it’s very brainwashy as well. Reminds me of all Gothard’s redefinitions. Everything is defined and outlined with Bible verses. Every single action is sin related and fur you to canine. Have already read some horror stories on Twitter.I did not know about the man who died by  suicide b/c of it. How awful! 

There have been numerous suicides, this one was famous because his parents sued MacArthur. They lost the case though and that more or less gave nouthetic counseling the green light.

It is very ripe for abuse because of how it is structured. The “counselors” hold no legal licensure and thus have free rein with no outside professional accountability. There’s no confidentiality, and often details of family troubles are passed to senior pastors and/or elder boards. Ever wonder why in these abuse situations the church knows so much information? Little details that seem beyond the norm as to what an abuse survivor might disclose to a pastor? This is often why.

 

Edited by noseybutt
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7 hours ago, noseybutt said:

It is very ripe for abuse because of how it is structured. The “counselors” hold no legal licensure and thus have free rein with no outside professional accountability. There’s no confidentiality, and often details of family troubles are passed to senior pastors and/or elder boards.

The Doug Wilson empire in Moscow, Idaho has a nouthetic "counseling" operation, Center for Biblical Counseling.  Oddly, despite the fancy website, right now it only shows two people on staff and one of them died last month. 

Christ Church is a high control outfit; I've always thought that the purpose of the "counseling" operation was to report back to Doug Wilson on any troublesome parishioners so Wilson et al. could do damage control if need be. 

Edited by Howl
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Just came across this thread on Twitter by a woman whose spousal abuse was sanctioned by the church. Yes, it really is that bad. 

Unroll for non Twitterati HERE

<snip>

"Next counselor was another #TMU trained counselor that had been contacted through GCC network. That's where I was told (in front of ex) that my abuse was ordained by God due to my rebellious spirit. This was his plan for me. #GCC #Abuse #JMac 

I was also told we're to be like Christ and Jesus never fought back or even lifted his head to his abusers so I needed to be more like him."

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2 hours ago, Howl said:

The Doug Wilson empire in Moscow, Idaho has a nouthetic "counseling" operation, Center for Biblical Counseling.  Oddly, despite the fancy website, right now it only shows two people on staff and one of them died last month. 

Christ Church is a high control outfit; I've always thought that the purpose of the "counseling" operation was to report back to Doug Wilson on any troublesome parishioners so Wilson et al. could do damage control if need be. 

Yes. That’s an honest take on the structure and not a cynical one.

The goal is to remove sin and instill doctrine. Which, as you can imagine, means that the counselors absolutely do not act in the counselees best interest if personal well-being or safety or mental health symptoms conflict with doctrine. 

I will add that overwhelming percentage of these types of counseling outfits are tied to reformed churches and are more common in the larger and wealthier churches. It goes back to their doctrine that there is no possible good outside Jesus and thus better to keep it all in-house.

Mainstream churches tend to opt for licensed professionals. 

Pentecostals tends to opt for prayer and advice from the pastors that is very unstructured and even more uneven. I have encountered several individuals with schizophrenia who were failed exorcisms by lay Pentecostal pastors.

LDS have a form of counseling with their church leaders but also have a network of licensed Mormon professionals. IME they have huge issues skirting the child abuse laws but are better than the nouthetic people at recognizing mental illness.

 

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5 hours ago, Howl said:

The Doug Wilson empire in Moscow, Idaho has a nouthetic "counseling" operation, Center for Biblical Counseling.

Their “counseling center” website has a link to Moscow Medical. Do you know if that’s run through Christ Church as well? I wonder if it’s another way to keep tabs on church members. HIPAA violations aren’t like counseling licensure, and apply whether you want them to or not, but no one is going to openly complain about their doctor “accidentally” sharing their medical information with Doug et al. They’ll be blackmailed and kicked out of the church. 

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24 minutes ago, Columbia said:

Their “counseling center” website has a link to Moscow Medical. Do you know if that’s run through Christ Church as well? I wonder if it’s another way to keep tabs on church members. HIPAA violations aren’t like counseling licensure, and apply whether you want them to or not, but no one is going to openly complain about their doctor “accidentally” sharing their medical information with Doug et al. They’ll be blackmailed and kicked out of the church. 

To clarify, Licensed Professional Counselors and LMFTs and LCSWs and licensed psychologists absolutely are covered entities under HIPAA and must maintain confidentiality. 

The nouthetic or biblical "counselors" are not considered medical or mental health care and generally fall under pastoral care. So they follow the state laws in place for religious leaders. (For example, some states require pastors to be mandated reporters outside sacramental confession, and others do not.)

I know nothing about Moscow Medical except that it is a small family practice. IME the medical doctors are very savvy about HIPAA and unwilling to break it even in these situations because it would mean licensure difficulties and an end to the clinic. What more commonly happens is breaches by unlicensed staff-- for example, the receptionist or the local (and often wealthy) medical supplier who "accidentally" may overhear something. 

But also, most rural family practices are busy places and not the environment where all the details of the abuse are likely to be shared. It's possible. I just think the full extent of the story is more likely to be known by those in the counseling role.

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23 minutes ago, Columbia said:

Their “counseling center” website has a link to Moscow Medical.

Well, two things. Moscow Medical accepts all patients, regardless of ability to pay and they require masks.   So Christ Church congregants with terrible Scamaritan health insurance are good to go.  

The mask thing, though?  Christ Church is adamantly anti mask. 

3 hours ago, noseybutt said:

LDS have a form of counseling with their church leaders but also have a network of licensed Mormon professionals. IME they have huge issues skirting the child abuse laws but are better than the nouthetic people at recognizing mental illness.

The monthly visit (which allowed the visitor to get all up in your marital business) has been changed to ministering (maybe MORE up in your business?) back around 2018. 

Where Did My Home and Visiting Teachers Go?

 

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9 minutes ago, Howl said:

 

The monthly visit (which allowed the visitor to get all up in your marital business) has been changed to ministering (maybe MORE up in your business?) back around 2018. 

Where Did My Home and Visiting Teachers Go?

 

Ooof. It is super interesting to me how the LDS is using the exact same language as conservative Evangelical churches (ministering versus monthly visit).

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It’s not worth starting a new topic for this so I’m sharing here. Pensacola Christian found out a member of these singing group is something other than cis/straight so they canceled a concert two hours before they were to perform. 
https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/15/us/kings-singers-pensacola-christian-college-cec/index.html
 

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40 minutes ago, Giraffe said:

It’s not worth starting a new topic for this so I’m sharing here. Pensacola Christian found out a member of these singing group is something other than cis/straight so they canceled a concert two hours before they were to perform. 
https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/15/us/kings-singers-pensacola-christian-college-cec/index.html
 

Aren't these the folks who have a problem with 'cancel culture'?  Go figure.

 

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12 hours ago, Howl said:

Well, two things. Moscow Medical accepts all patients, regardless of ability to pay and they require masks.   So Christ Church congregants with terrible Scamaritan health insurance are good to go.  

The mask thing, though?  Christ Church is adamantly anti mask. 

The monthly visit (which allowed the visitor to get all up in your marital business) has been changed to ministering (maybe MORE up in your business?) back around 2018. 

Where Did My Home and Visiting Teachers Go?

 

Seriously if you had a widow who had no idea why the church visitors stopped coming.. you really have to wonder how well communicated or sincere any of the visits were.

17 hours ago, Howl said:

Just came across this thread on Twitter by a woman whose spousal abuse was sanctioned by the church. Yes, it really is that bad. 

Unroll for non Twitterati HERE

<snip>

"Next counselor was another #TMU trained counselor that had been contacted through GCC network. That's where I was told (in front of ex) that my abuse was ordained by God due to my rebellious spirit. This was his plan for me. #GCC #Abuse #JMac 

I was also told we're to be like Christ and Jesus never fought back or even lifted his head to his abusers so I needed to be more like him."

That was utterly appalling. 

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5 hours ago, Ozlsn said:

That was utterly appalling. 

Yes, it was.  And what was odd to me was that the abuser's parents were so heavily involved, and the abused woman was not allowed into a counseling session with the abuser and his parents. What's up with that?  I wondered if the parents were heavy hitters in the MacArthur/GCC universe. 

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3 hours ago, Howl said:

Yes, it was.  And what was odd to me was that the abuser's parents were so heavily involved, and the abused woman was not allowed into a counseling session with the abuser and his parents. What's up with that?  I wondered if the parents were heavy hitters in the MacArthur/GCC universe. 

Yeah the in-laws involvement is super weird. However, it seems plausible to me if father-in-law was an elder. Some churches take the scripture for elders having “faithful children” very literally, so much so that an adult child’s marriage or sin or lack of belief could reflect back on his ability to serve as a leader. (Think about the drama around John Piper’s leadership because of his son Abraham. Something like that.) 

 

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2 hours ago, noseybutt said:

Yeah the in-laws involvement is super weird. However, it seems plausible to me if father-in-law was an elder. Some churches take the scripture for elders having “faithful children” very literally, so much so that an adult child’s marriage or sin or lack of belief could reflect back on his ability to serve as a leader. (Think about the drama around John Piper’s leadership because of his son Abraham. Something like that.) 

 

A few years ago Joseph Spurgeon was protesting outside a KY women’s health clinic.  He recognized a clinic escort as the daughter of an elder at a local church.  A few people contacted that church and since the daughter had clearly fallen away the man lost his position as elder.  It played out on FB and was pretty ugly.

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6 hours ago, Howl said:

Yes, it was.  And what was odd to me was that the abuser's parents were so heavily involved, and the abused woman was not allowed into a counseling session with the abuser and his parents. What's up with that?  I wondered if the parents were heavy hitters in the MacArthur/GCC universe. 

These sad stories are all similar, the upside to which is dv appears to be handled in a systemized way by the JMacs.

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38 minutes ago, Fallgirl30 said:

A few years ago Joseph Spurgeon was protesting outside a KY women’s health clinic.

I hate these obnoxious fucks.  Women's clinics and Planned Parenhood do so much -- well woman care, prenatal care, breast exams, birth control, STD testing and treatment.  I'm here nattering away on fj because a Planned Parenthood confirmed a small breast lump, referred me for the mammogram that confirmed breast cancer that led to treatment before it metastasized and that probably saved my life.  

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11 hours ago, Howl said:

Yes, it was.  And what was odd to me was that the abuser's parents were so heavily involved, and the abused woman was not allowed into a counseling session with the abuser and his parents. What's up with that?  I wondered if the parents were heavy hitters in the MacArthur/GCC universe. 

I cannot get over her being excluded from the "counselling" entirely, and the one person who believed her and said so being shafted. There really needs to be investigation into these practices, because even "pastoral counselling" should have some responsibility and accountability.

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It's so gross and awful. I also saw the letter GCC sent to Eileen Gray floating around. It's UNREAL that they tried to get her to remove the RESTRAINING ORDER and also that they seriously wouldn't accept her attempt to resign her membership. What in the world? The church itself was acting like an abusive ex. So indicative of they feel they are an absolute authority. 

Richly hypocritical that they found masking such a hardship they defied the government but want abused women to submit for forever. 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Ozlsn said:

I cannot get over her being excluded from the "counselling" entirely, and the one person who believed her and said so being shafted. There really needs to be investigation into these practices, because even "pastoral counselling" should have some responsibility and accountability.

Practitioners who want to be responsible and accountable wouldn't be doing "counselin" for a.high-control church control.

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21 hours ago, neuroticcat said:

It's UNREAL that they tried to get her to remove the RESTRAINING ORDER and also that they seriously wouldn't accept her attempt to resign her membership.

They wouldn’t let her resign so that they could publicly shame her with her excommunication. 

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On 2/15/2023 at 5:33 PM, Giraffe said:

It’s not worth starting a new topic for this so I’m sharing here. Pensacola Christian found out a member of these singing group is something other than cis/straight so they canceled a concert two hours before they were to perform. 
https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/15/us/kings-singers-pensacola-christian-college-cec/index.html
 

The King’s Singers are and always have been SEVERELY AWESOME. I’m so sad for the ticket holders.  

On 2/16/2023 at 11:42 AM, noseybutt said:

Some churches take the scripture for elders having “faithful children” very literally, so much so that an adult child’s marriage or sin or lack of belief could reflect back on his ability to serve as a leader.

A member of the Church of Christ ( Duck Dynasty denomination) told his Lutheran stepson that he shouldn’t serve as an elder because the stepson had no children, and having good children is a requirement for being an elder. 
 

Then he accused - again - Lutherans of worshiping Martin Luther. Because they call themselves Lutherans; so totally logical, right?  Who needs to write fiction with reality like this? 

 

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I haven't known where to put this, bu I guess this thread will do. It's an article called Can pastors please stop salivating over women’s bodies in sermons?  

I didn't  think it was bad enough to put in the Fundie Scandal thread. Here's another link to the clip she discusses. It's been going viral for the worst reasons. 

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17 hours ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

I haven't known where to put this, bu I guess this thread will do. It's an article called Can pastors please stop salivating over women’s bodies in sermons?  

I didn't  think it was bad enough to put in the Fundie Scandal thread. Here's another link to the clip she discusses. It's been going viral for the worst reasons. 

Whoa.

And then I am frustrated that, again, I feel this way.

What he said during the first sermon is problematic. But his follow up after attending the Asbury Revival? Ouch. That one really is horrific.

(Are we talking about Asbury anywhere on FJ? Because the footage of the current revival is very interesting.)

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