Theobros, Patriarchs, Dominionists, Christofascists et al.

[MamaJunebug]

57 minutes ago, noseybutt said:

Whoa.

And then I am frustrated that, again, I feel this way.

What he said during the first sermon is problematic. But his follow up after attending the Asbury Revival? Ouch. That one really is horrific.

(Are we talking about Asbury anywhere on FJ? Because the footage of the current revival is very interesting.)

There’s some over in the Rodrigues Family current topic. The one with “bonsai” in the title. In the neighborhood of page 7.  

Edited February 27, 2023 by MamaJunebug

[Pecansforeveryone]

https://baptistnews.com/article/southern-baptist-convention-ousts-its-largest-church-saddleback-for-having-a-woman-pastor/

I hadn't realized Saddleback was a part of the SBC. While many mega-churches are SBC adjunct, I had thought Saddleback was non-denominational. 

[Bluebirdbluebell]

1 hour ago, noseybutt said:

Whoa.

And then I am frustrated that, again, I feel this way.

What he said during the first sermon is problematic. But his follow up after attending the Asbury Revival? Ouch. That one really is horrific.

(Are we talking about Asbury anywhere on FJ? Because the footage of the current revival is very interesting.)

What did he say about Asbury? I hadn't heard anything else.

[noseybutt]

19 hours ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

What did he say about Asbury? I hadn't heard anything else.

Quote from the article:

Instead of heeding the voices of the hundreds of Christian women calling him to a higher standard, Pokluda chose to characterize the entire Twitter outcry as persecution. In a subsequent sermon, he described what God apparently revealed to him when he visited the Asbury Revival. 

As he entered the sanctuary, he was thinking about how he was being attacked by “mean and evil” people “antagonistic towards Christianity and pastors.” Pokluda recounts God told him to read Psalm 37: “Do not fret because of those who are evil, or be envious of those who do wrong. For like the grass they will soon wither, like green plants they will soon die away.”

[Ozlsn]

10 hours ago, noseybutt said:

As he entered the sanctuary, he was thinking about how he was being attacked by “mean and evil” people “antagonistic towards Christianity and pastors.”

So... Christian equals men, and pastors equals men, and "mean and evil" equals women. Interesting take, but not surprising.

[Howl]

Pokluda has also written a book on dating titled Outdated.   Ignore physical attraction, go for the most holy person!  I read a few of the 2-star  reviews on Amazon.  They mentioned that the author seemed  mean and there was a lot of shaming.  

Pokluda is a pastor in Waco, TX, home of Baylor, a large Baptist university.  He has many Baylor student followers in his congregation.  

Edited February 28, 2023 by Howl

[noseybutt]

8 hours ago, Ozlsn said:

So... Christian equals men, and pastors equals men, and "mean and evil" equals women. Interesting take, but not surprising.

I didn’t pick up on that level of misogyny, but you are right. He splits it down the middle.

2 hours ago, Howl said:

Pokluda has also written a book on dating titled Outdated.   Ignore physical attraction, go for the most holy person!  I read a few of the 2-star  reviews on Amazon.  They mentioned that the author seemed  mean and there was a lot of shaming.  

Pokluda is a pastor in Waco, TX, home of Baylor, a large Baptist university.  He has many Baylor student followers in his congregation.  

It is curious to me that some of the conservative Baptist pastors would head to Asbury for the revival there which seems increasingly charismatic. Maybe the college students are the connection?

[Bluebirdbluebell]

I don't know where to put this tweet, but if you, like me, are never sure how feel about the church being the bride of Christ (Warning: Slightly Graphic words) this tweet quotes some manual that makes it weirder. 

If you can read the comments, the whole thing is batsh*t nuts.

Edited March 2, 2023 by Bluebirdbluebell

[Howl]

@Bluebirdbluebell, I JUST KNEW an fj'er would be on this!  The comments all over twitter are hilarious and stellar.  

Here's a link to the article: Sex Won’t Save You (But It Points to the One Who Will)

Julie Anne breaks down why this is so destructive: 

And yes, Josh Butler has an entire book coming out.  This is Gospel Coalition, complementarian crap. 

 

 

Edited March 2, 2023 by Howl

[Antipatriarch]

On 2/26/2023 at 1:11 AM, Bluebirdbluebell said:

I haven't known where to put this, bu I guess this thread will do. It's an article called Can pastors please stop salivating over women’s bodies in sermons?  

Gregoire makes this very good point:

Quote

 

In frat-boy movies of the ’80s and ’90s, men proved their masculinity by the “notches on the bedposts,” by how many women they’ve slept with. But Christian men are only supposed to have sex with one woman — their wife. One way to prove their manhood without promiscuity is to brag about how they could have slept with many women but chose not to. 

Sociologist Sarah Diefendorf  notes how Christian men often seem to relish describing their struggles with lusting over women’s bodies, as if such assertions are a way to assure us of their manliness. Maybe this explains why pastors so often give these tone-deaf illustrations. At some level, they think this signals their manhood. 

 

So, one more way this sermon story was awful... it was a humblebrag.

[Howl]

1 hour ago, Antipatriarch said:

So, one more way this sermon story was awful... it was a humblebrag.

and 

Quote

 Maybe this explains why pastors so often give these tone-deaf illustrations. At some level, they think this signals their manhood. 

Subtext:  "I'm a man's man, so naturally so I went home and forced  sex on my wife because aroused by a hot woman." 

[hoipolloi]

Thanks, @Bluebirdbluebell, for mentioning this totally bizarre & revolting theobro take on sex. I have been following it on Twitter and it seems like TGC are the only ones who think it was a great piece of writing, not to mention wonderful theology.

My general rule is that anyone who is so obsessed with sex, such as Josh Butler, is actually projecting like mad -- I will not be surprised to see something hideous come out about him:

[Howl]

I'm having flashbacks to Mark Driscoll referring to vaginas a "penis homes". 

[neuroticcat]

Yes, the outrage to the article is uniting everyone on twitter. Everyone - progressives, conservatives, exvangelicals, and more -  hates it. However, I won't be surprised if Canon Press reach out to offer him a book deal as they did Scott Adams though. 

 

[CTRLZero]

On 2/27/2023 at 12:55 PM, noseybutt said:

Quote from the article:

Instead of heeding the voices of the hundreds of Christian women calling him to a higher standard, Pokluda chose to characterize the entire Twitter outcry as persecution. In a subsequent sermon, he described what God apparently revealed to him when he visited the Asbury Revival. 

As he entered the sanctuary, he was thinking about how he was being attacked by “mean and evil” people “antagonistic towards Christianity and pastors.” Pokluda recounts God told him to read Psalm 37: “Do not fret because of those who are evil, or be envious of those who do wrong. For like the grass they will soon wither, like green plants they will soon die away.”

I know next to nothing about this Asbury revival, but I did just read that an attendee had measles, so this Bible verse may have some unintended relevance.  The health authorities are asking people to quarantine for 21 days, but you know how fundies are about public health… 

[Howl]

13 hours ago, CTRLZero said:

I know next to nothing about this Asbury revival, but I did just read that an attendee had measles...

That makes this a super spreader event for people who haven't been vaxxed and there are for sure homeschooled anti-vax students in attendance.  

Measles is astoundingly contagious. 

Some of those attendees will get sick and infect others. 

Edited March 3, 2023 by Howl

[hoipolloi]

29 minutes ago, Howl said:

That makes this a super spreader event for people who haven't been vaxxed and there are for sure homeschooled anti-vax students in attendance. 

Yep, and I can tell you from personal experience that those who come down with measles are in for a miserable time, at least, and possibly worse. I had measles & mumps, back in the late 1950s or early 1960s, before there were vaccines. You do NOT want to get measles or mumps. 

Edited March 3, 2023 by hoipolloi

[Howl]

The Josh Butler storm is still raging.  The Gospel Coalition has been trending on twitter for a good part of today and not in a good way -- more of a "SRSLY Josh Butler, DaFuq I just read?" kinda way.

Sheila Gregoire graciously noted that it's not entirely Josh Butler's fault -- she asks,  where were his first readers, his editor(s), his publisher and TGC that let this idiocy get out the door?

[Howl]

Josh Butler's vision of hospitality sex has given rise to Spermeneutics! 

Cynthia Kunsman walks us through The Spermeneutics of Spread Your Legs Theology at Under Much Grace;  Resources for Recovery from Spiritual Abuse. 

 

[SisterCupcake]

Looks like they’ve taken down the article and replaced it with the entire intro and first chapter for…larger context. Because they just knew it would be misunderstood. 🙄

Spoiler

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/sex-wont-save-you/

 

[neuroticcat]

CW: bizarre spiritual-sexual-cultic language.

 

Spoiler

There is so much craziness with that article. Sheila Gregoire, who often spotlights the horrible teaching on sex in Christian circles, pointed out that he speaks about prostitutes as women who are manipulative in charging for their "hospitality." (Of course no discussion of the men *paying* for it).  His horrible chapter talks about men being priests & their ejaculate as their generous offering. And women are the  temples who welcome it into the warm Most Holy Place (no lie). It is sex cult level and mixed in with all kinds of spiritual language like "Christ penetrates the church"

Anyway, all of it is gross and misogynistic and male-fantasy in a stunning (and also not) way for the reformed crowd and I have no idea how any of them every thought it made any sense to publish. 

Two of the big name endorsers of the book retracted their endorsement and confessed that they hadn't read the book - haha! And it looks like the author was pretty swiftly cancelled. He was spoke to speak at a big Christian women's conference this weekend and was pulled, The Gospel Coalition booted him off the special group he was on that I guess they just launched as a "cultural apologetics" !!! team, and they issued a statement saying they would work harder for a better review process. 

What was wild to see was that originally everyone kind of unanimously rejected it as universally awful. And then after a few days the manly men found their courage and were able to return with a lot of "Ackshually, if you look past the pornified language for Jesus..."

 

[noseybutt]

41 minutes ago, neuroticcat said:

CW: bizarre spiritual-sexual-cultic language.

 

  Hide contents

There is so much craziness with that article. Sheila Gregoire, who often spotlights the horrible teaching on sex in Christian circles, pointed out that he speaks about prostitutes as women who are manipulative in charging for their "hospitality." (Of course no discussion of the men *paying* for it).  His horrible chapter talks about men being priests & their ejaculate as their generous offering. And women are the  temples who welcome it into the warm Most Holy Place (no lie). It is sex cult level and mixed in with all kinds of spiritual language like "Christ penetrates the church"

Anyway, all of it is gross and misogynistic and male-fantasy in a stunning (and also not) way for the reformed crowd and I have no idea how any of them every thought it made any sense to publish. 

Two of the big name endorsers of the book retracted their endorsement and confessed that they hadn't read the book - haha! And it looks like the author was pretty swiftly cancelled. He was spoke to speak at a big Christian women's conference this weekend and was pulled, The Gospel Coalition booted him off the special group he was on that I guess they just launched as a "cultural apologetics" !!! team, and they issued a statement saying they would work harder for a better review process. 

What was wild to see was that originally everyone kind of unanimously rejected it as universally awful. And then after a few days the manly men found their courage and were able to return with a lot of "Ackshually, if you look past the pornified language for Jesus..."

 

I found a copy of the original article and hear me whoa. Again.

The metaphor of Christ/church and husband/wife is as old as New Testament writings. Even the Song of Solomon reimagined as a Christ as husband/church as bride goes back as far as, what, the church fathers? A long time.

But this is bizarre.

Biggest theme is that generosity is connected to male orgasm while female sexuality (no mention of orgasm) is connected to hospitality.

For the rape and sexual abuse survivors: I weep.

In its very perverted way, it sums up gender roles in evangelical Christianity extremely well. And I don’t mean that men are designated active givers and women as passive receivers. Rather, that men are literally lauded as generous for ejaculating inside a vagina. Can the bar be set any lower?

Meanwhile, hospitality typically requires planning and organizing and sharing resources and trusting and inviting. Women are, quite literally, expected to do all the work. And somehow be passive as they do it.

 

 

[Howl]

4 hours ago, noseybutt said:

For the rape and sexual abuse survivors: I weep.

There are numerous accounts of girls/young women who were told by their abusers that their rape was sacred/sanctioned by God.  Jack Schaap comes to mind, but there are numerous others. 

 

[Antipatriarch]

On 3/4/2023 at 7:40 AM, SisterCupcake said:

Looks like they’ve taken down the article and replaced it with the entire intro and first chapter for…larger context. Because they just knew it would be misunderstood. 🙄

  Hide contents

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/sex-wont-save-you/

 

OK it looks like they finally realized they needed to fully yank it down. The author has resigned his position and won't be featured at some upcoming speaking engagements. And it sounds like TGC has woken up to the fact that publishing this was a massive review/editor fail.

Quote

 

Dear Readers,

Thank you for your feedback on the Keller Center’s book excerpt from Joshua Butler posted on March 1, 2023. And thank you for your patience while we took the time to listen to our critics and the serious objections from concerned fellows, as well as discuss this matter with our Board of Directors and care for our friend Josh.

Earlier this week, we accepted Josh’s resignation as a Keller Center fellow. He will no longer lead an online cohort with the center nor speak at TGC23. While he will no longer participate in these events, Josh remains a beloved brother and friend whom we respect and care deeply about.

To our fellows and our readers, please forgive us. The Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics is a new effort by TGC, and we are still learning how to work with our directors and our fellows to produce content that will serve our readers in a way that is trusted and wise. To ensure greater accountability with our fellows, we will develop better review systems for our work together. We will also review our publication processes more broadly at TGC and develop plans to ensure greater accountability to you, our readers.

Again, thank you for your patience with us. At TGC, we want to provide a venue for healthy dialogue and robust debate on important matters that affect us all. We want to model grace-filled conversations, and we want to learn from one another. In this case, we failed you and hurt many friends. Thank you in advance for your continued prayers.

For Christ and his gospel,

Julius Kim
President
The Gospel Coalition

 

But: No apology to the specific groups that article hurt. (Plenty of mention though of how much they love and want to care for their dear brother the author.) Julie Roys has an article up with a good sampling of the feedback from many women who immediately spotted what the TGCers clearly didn't. My favorite:

Quote

this is exactly what happens when you put a No Girls Allowed sign on your “gospel coalition.”

- Kristin Du Mez

 

Edited March 7, 2023 by Antipatriarch
note the priorities

[Antipatriarch]

Meanwhile, speaking of editing fails at theobro sites 🤣 (actually that's pretty on-brand)...

Edited March 7, 2023 by Antipatriarch
DG not TGC