Duggars by the Dozen 44: Michelle wearing a stupid skirt over leggins which is not news at all

[JermajestyDuggar]

I agree. Everyone’s normal will be different. And there will be times in a marriage where your normal changes due to circumstance. Which is fine. Marriage is long. Or at least it can be. And having sex every day at age 80 might not be possible.

[Cam]

Imo, sex every day takes the enjoyment out of it. So like AprilQ says, it becomes a duty. Or something you don’t think about, merely a habit. For me, daily frequency would eliminate the pleasure aspect of sex. I like lemon meringue pie, but if I had it every day I’d grow tired of it. Daily sex would be a chore. Yeah, and the bragging about it gives me the eww factor. Many or most women have cramps and other discomfort before and during their period, and some have heavy periods. Period sex isn’t my idea of a good time. Having sex when physically exhausted doesn’t sound fun either. Neither does having and raising children numbering in the double digits.

Edited September 7, 2022 by Cam

[JermajestyDuggar]

32 minutes ago, Cam said:

Imo, sex every day takes the enjoyment out of it. So like AprilQ says, it becomes a duty. Or something you don’t think about, merely a habit. For me, daily frequency would eliminate the pleasure aspect of sex. I like lemon meringue pie, but if I had it every day I’d grow tired of it. Daily sex would be a chore. Yeah, and the bragging about it gives me the eww factor. Many or most women have cramps and other discomfort before and during their period, and some have heavy periods. Period sex isn’t my idea of a good time. Having sex when physically exhausted doesn’t sound fun either. Neither does having and raising children numbering in the double digits.

An ex fundie wife said her husband expected it every single day. Even when she was sick. It was so horrible for her. But she was trained to always submit to her husband. 

[Tatar-tot]

6 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

An ex fundie wife said her husband expected it every single day. Even when she was sick. It was so horrible for her. But she was trained to always submit to her husband. 

That is abuse not submission.  The husband needs to start jogging and take up sports to burn up his sexual energy.  What a pig!  

[JermajestyDuggar]

20 minutes ago, Tatar-tot said:

That is abuse not submission.  The husband needs to start jogging and take up sports to burn up his sexual energy.  What a pig!  

They are divorced now. No surprise there.

Edited September 7, 2022 by JermajestyDuggar

[noseybutt]

Daily sex is normal but in this instance I think she is straight up lying.

I also don't think it's the #flex or #couplesgoals that she thinks it is.

[Cam]

To be clear, when they say sex I take it to mean intercourse. Not sure how much or how little the female orgasm is part of that. If the husband is the only one having one, the prospect of daily sex for the wife grows even more dreary, weary and dull. I don’t think the fundies allow for self exploration/self pleasure, and only the basics of intercourse are briefly mentioned just before marriage so it’s a mystery to me how female fundies would get there with a virgin husband. It can’t be good. These folks suffer such sexual repression at the hands of religion.

[Mama Mia]

On 9/7/2022 at 3:26 PM, Cam said:

To be clear, when they say sex I take it to mean intercourse. Not sure how much or how little the female orgasm is part of that. If the husband is the only one having one, the prospect of daily sex for the wife grows even more dreary, weary and dull. I don’t think the fundies allow for self exploration/self pleasure, and only the basics of intercourse are briefly mentioned just before marriage so it’s a mystery to me how female fundies would get there with a virgin husband. It can’t be good. These folks suffer such sexual repression at the hands of religion.

The book the Duggar’s are said to give their kids before marriage is extremely explicit on anatomy and the importance of female orgasm and how to facilitate that. Extremely.  I was very surprised. 

There were times in my life when I was extremely tired and overwhelmed and touched out and just plain not interested in sex. There were other times I really wanted it every day. Just as stress relief and the physical part. I think as women we kind of get a damned if you do, damned if you don’t. In my experience if you state you just want sex, frequently, because you like it — there is push back just as strongly from other women as if you say you never want it. And that’s not exclusive to fundie culture. 
 

 

[noseybutt]

2 minutes ago, Mama Mia said:

The book the Duggar’s are said to give their kids before marriage is extremely explicit on anatomy and the importance of female orgasm and how to facilitate that. Extremely.  I was very surprised. 

There were times in my life when I was extremely tired and overwhelmed and touched out and just plain not interested in sex. There were other times I really wanted it every day. Just as stress relief and the physical part. I think as women we kind of get a damned if you do, damned if you don’t. In my experience if you state you just want sex, frequently, because you like it — there is push back just as strongly from other women as if you say you never want it. And that’s not exclusive to fundie culture. 
 

 

Do you remember the name of the book?  Just curious.
 

[Mama Mia]

6 minutes ago, noseybutt said:

Do you remember the name of the book?  Just curious.
 

Maybe “Created for Each Others Pleasure?” Something like that

[Giraffe]

Intended for Pleasure

[noseybutt]

10 minutes ago, Giraffe said:

Intended for Pleasure

 

Ah. I remember that one. Yes, it is detailed and pro female orgasm. Hugely problematic in other ways, but at least orgasms for wives were a thing.
 

[noseybutt]

Also, I read a lot of sex books (across the religious and scientific spectrum) for my job. Cough, cough.

Anyone remember Sheet Music by Kevin Leman? IIRC, that one is pro-female orgasm and pro-oral sex but also hecka weird.

He lost me when he disclosed his pet name for his own penis. 

 

[Giraffe]

3 minutes ago, noseybutt said:

Also, I read a lot of sex books (across the religious and scientific spectrum) for my job. Cough, cough.

Anyone remember Sheet Music by Kevin Leman? IIRC, that one is pro-female orgasm and pro-oral sex but also hecka weird.

He lost me when he disclosed his pet name for his own penis. 

 

Omg, yes! I haven’t thought of that book for years! So weird. I don’t remember the specifics but by the end of it I was creeped out by the author and never read anything else by him.  

Edited September 9, 2022 by Giraffe
Clarifying

[neuroticcat]

All Christian sex books are a bit unhinged. Admittedly, I haven't read a lot of others to compare them to, but they're all extra weird. Even the more mainstream ones have a lot of obligatory sex for women. Sometimes Sheila over at Bare Marriage (used to be to love, honor & vacuum) breaks it down and it is just awful to see it in the light of day. Like this: 

 

[Cam]

I’m surprised there’s any emphasis on female orgasm. Not sure how you go from “don’t touch yourself down there except to wipe” to “let yourself freely enjoy orgasmic pleasure with the man you only kissed for the first time at the wedding and now you’re laying naked with him in bed even tho extreme modesty has been pounded into your head all your life”. Hm. It’s a lot to unpack. And if you don’t have access to the book?

Definitely women in and out of fundie-dom are damned for liking sex, damned for not providing it. They’re supposed to look hot and sexy and appealing to men, but not want sex too much or too often or enjoy it too much when they have it. 

Edited September 9, 2022 by Cam

[Meggo]

3 hours ago, Cam said:

I’m surprised there’s any emphasis on female orgasm. Not sure how you go from “don’t touch yourself down there except to wipe” to “let yourself freely enjoy orgasmic pleasure with the man you only kissed for the first time at the wedding and now you’re laying naked with him in bed even tho extreme modesty has been pounded into your head all your life”. Hm. It’s a lot to unpack. And if you don’t have access to the book?

 

This baffles me. Don't touch yourself, don't hold hands with him, don't be alone with him, certainly don't kiss him. And then BAM words are spoken and you're supposed to be joyfully available whenever he wants. Orgasm aside - how do you do that? 

My family was REALLY repressed (s3x only for the procreation of children - Mom would have been happy if I'd saved kissing for marriage etc) and there's a lot of that to be undone. I wish I had just had fun (safely & responsibly) in my younger years. 

 

[Giraffe]

4 minutes ago, Meggo said:

This baffles me. Don't touch yourself, don't hold hands with him, don't be alone with him, certainly don't kiss him. And then BAM words are spoken and you're supposed to be joyfully available whenever he wants. Orgasm aside - how do you do that? 

That’s why there are so many people speaking out against purity culture - because it can be traumatic for them! It’s such a mindf*.

[Cam]

I wouldn’t mind a do-over regarding sex in my earlier years, either. I liked it and even enjoyed it plenty of times but there were too many times I was guilted into having it. Times I was made to feel less than. Times I wish I’d have said, yeah that’s supposed to be a cool way of doing it but it doesn’t appeal to me personally, so no. I unknowingly played into the patriarchal approach to sex but have since wised up. Now I am much better at honoring my boundaries and refuse to be manipulated. 

Purity culture angers me to no end. I read a good book (true story), “Ruined” by Ruth Everhart who was a victim of a sex crime and believed she was ruined physically and in the eyes of God. It took her months, years, to deal with the shame and anger and to loosen herself from the patriarchal ways of thinking about purity. She wrote the book because she has daughters. She says, “You are more than your virginity. You are more than your sexual history. You are more than what happens to you. You are immensely valuable. No wound can ever make you less than whole. Wounds become scars, and scars make a person beautiful.” Skillfully written. 

Edited September 9, 2022 by Cam

[noseybutt]

2 hours ago, Giraffe said:

That’s why there are so many people speaking out against purity culture - because it can be traumatic for them! It’s such a mindf*.

Imagine a person both being raised within purity culture and experiencing sexual assault. Unfortunately that's all too common in my professional world. I suspect it is quite common in fundie world--well, with several of the Duggar women, we know this is the case.

@neuroticcat's statement that "all Christian sex books are a bit unhinged" is accurate, only I would probably say: a lot unhinged.

Make no mistake, the emphasis on female orgasm is only partially about pleasure. It's being taught within the context of relationships that are all about authority/submission and--with the exception of couples who find that power dynamic sexually satisfying 100% of the time--is basically taught as a way to smooth over the rough edges in the relationship. Show her a good time in bed and she will more readily cook and clean.

For those interested in a sex book that is based in science and covers a wide a range of topics in a nonjudgmental and helpful tone, I recommend Come as You Are by Emily Nagosaki. 



 

[Cam]

16 minutes ago, noseybutt said:

Make no mistake, the emphasis on female orgasm is only partially about pleasure. It's being taught within the context of relationships that are all about authority/submission and--with the exception of couples who find that power dynamic sexually satisfying 100% of the time--is basically taught as a way to smooth over the rough edges in the relationship. Show her a good time in bed and she will more readily cook and clean.
 

Oh my gosh, excellent points!

 

 

16 minutes ago, noseybutt said:

For those interested in a sex book that is based in science and covers a wide a range of topics in a nonjudgmental and helpful tone, I recommend Come as You Are by Emily Nagosaki. 
 

I’ve read the book and recommend it too. It is not a fluff piece of literature. It took me awhile to read it because of the in depth discussion of the subject matter. The author cites three influences from which we would be benefit to unlearn what we’ve been erroneously taught about sex: medical, media and moral (religion).

Edited September 9, 2022 by Cam

[FluffySnowball]

On 9/7/2022 at 2:02 PM, Cam said:

Imo, sex every day takes the enjoyment out of it. So like AprilQ says, it becomes a duty. Or something you don’t think about, merely a habit. For me, daily frequency would eliminate the pleasure aspect of sex. I like lemon meringue pie, but if I had it every day I’d grow tired of it. Daily sex would be a chore. Yeah, and the bragging about it gives me the eww factor. Many or most women have cramps and other discomfort before and during their period, and some have heavy periods. Period sex isn’t my idea of a good time. Having sex when physically exhausted doesn’t sound fun either. Neither does having and raising children numbering in the double digits.

It depends on the needs and wants of each individual couple though. For some people, it fits and it’s super fun to have sex - consensual and without any fundy ideology in the background!!! - every single day. I’m not into having sex while I’m on my period but I’m on the pill continuously so I hardly ever bleed (only when I very rarely forget to take it) and… well… but it must be with consent. 

[noseybutt]

Another comment.

Most conservative religious groups write their sex books from a patriarchal perspective. No surprise there.

But Evangelical and Christian fundamentalist theology still differs.

Orthodox Christian, trad Catholic, Ultra-Orthodox Jewish, Muslim and other groups with longer histories typically have a concept of fasting and feasting. There are days were when all the faithful are expected to abstain from food (or certain foods) and sex, and then time when food and sex are encouraged.  There are also times when women are set apart--for example, during menstruation or after childbirth (for example, the tradition of "the churching of women").

By comparison, the evangelical and fundie groups have no concept of the fast/feast rhythms. Menstruation and childbirth are not necessarily reasons to abstain. Sex is conceptualized as a 24-hour buffet for the married heterosexual couples. (No one else is allowed in the restaurant.)

I am not saying that the regular patriarchal ideas around sex are good/ideal. I am saying that this is a different twist on patriarchy that IMO has more in common with modern cultural norms than historical theology.

[Cam]

2 hours ago, FluffySnowball said:

It depends on the needs and wants of each individual couple though. 

Of course it does. But is the wife of those couples doing it daily doing so because she wants to or because of a religion mandate that says the wife must submit.

Such is the conditioning of religion. Many of us say “I was brought up…..” < insert type pf religion there. We were told what to believe from day one. We never actually got to form our own thoughts about it. Many of us weren’t raised by parents who say, “Look, you can either believe in God or not. Do your own research and decide.”

Fundie wives are supposed to prioritize the husband’s feelings. Michelle famously wrote some drivel about it after the Ashley Madison scandal about too bad if you’re big and pregnant, your man wants it so give it to him who cares if you feel about as sexy as a whale, wives your needs are insignificant.

Fundie wives are not permitted to have sexual boundaries. No wonder they have no problem voting for a man who just grabs a woman by the pussy.

Edited September 9, 2022 by Cam

[Smee]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think that Intended for Pleasure book was written by a fundie couple promoting courtships and no kissing before marriage, just a bog standard evangelical Christian couple. But yes, it is explicit about female orgasms and strategies, and also mentions some topics like vaginismus that are important for sheltered fundies to know about. I was gifted that book twice (by different people) at different points in my marriage, by people hoping to “fix” my asexuality. 

One time after my husband assaulted me, I went to a counsellor and burst into tears and said “I can’t keep having sex with my husband!” Amongst other aspects of the conversation, she asked how often he was asking for it and mentioned that she had seen women who came to her begging for help because they couldn’t keep up with their husbands’s “5 times a day” appetites. Mine would “settle” for 2-3 times a week, and let me tell you, discussion of how often other couples did it did NOTHING except make me feel like I was wrong and broken and had to learn how to put up with it those 2-3 times a week for the next 60 years of my life. We stayed married and I continued to “put out” for another 5 years after that. In one argument not long before I left, (this was a few months after a (secular) marriage counsellor and sex therapist had gently asked if I thought I could be asexual and explained to us what that might mean), my husband said “I don’t think you’re normal”. I cried so much that night.

There’s no such thing as “normal”, only what works for you.