Jana Duggar 15: Paying her court fine on Duggar time

[arareyeah]

Never had casserole because I don't think we have anything similar in our cuisine. Maybe because oven is not something we use in traditional cuisine. Maybe I should try looking for them in Western restaurant?

[backyard sylph]

I like very few casseroles because I have a lot of trouble with certain textures. But I like lasagna, if I make it myself, and a couple of layered eggplant dishes, and I suppose those are probably casseroles. Also I make a layered dish with enchilada ingredients sometimes. I don't like meat mixed into any of these things, and even the cottage pie I make once or twice a year I have designed for my fussy brain/palate. 

[QuiverFullofBooks]

51 minutes ago, arareyeah said:

Never had casserole because I don't think we have anything similar in our cuisine. Maybe because oven is not something we use in traditional cuisine. Maybe I should try looking for them in Western restaurant?

They are traditionally made at home, and not eaten in restaurants very often. Usually they’re a family meal that is easy and affordable. Where are you from? There may be something similar in your cuisine.

[EmCatlyn]

8 hours ago, imokit said:

Its interesting in that my perception is that Jessa was also thought of as a difficult one as child.

Josh was the good one (even after he wasn't good, he somehow remained the golden boy). JD seems to somehow have been the 1st lost child, despite being joint 2nd kid.  Jill the good one.  Jinger the little follower.  Jana was wild.  Jessa has also been described as difficult.

Of those 6 kids.  Jana and Jessa seem to have stayed closer to their parents beliefs.  Josh - is in Jail.  Jill is openly critical using birth control. Jinger while getting on with her family was using birth control and wearing pants within minutes of marriage.  (Its in her and Jeremy's book that they deliberately waited a year before getting pregnant with Felicity).  JD is quiet but found Abby himself  not semi arranged like the others (even though she's from a fundy family and a stay at home mum, she has a nursing qualification, they also notably have a single two year old and no 2nd pregnancy yet).

Jana meanwhile remains the enforcer at home.  Jessa is married, skirts only in public and seems to be the only one of the 6 filling her quiver (Josh also filled a quiver but clearly doesn't believe, so doesn't count).

The ones who were viewed as the most difficult, and thus likely got the most parental discipline and brain washing are the most faithful adults.  The quieter ones who were perceived as better behaved are the ones with more independent thought now.

Yes, that is not uncommon.  The ones who get the most parental discipline are often the most compliant in the end, so long as they feel that they are (finally) doing what they are supposed to do.  The ones who did not have a strong urge to rebel as children are less likely to be constrained from rebeling later.

As far as Jill goes, I think she has largely done what she was trained to do—even when she rebelled— because her rebellion took the form of following her husband.  I think, though, that once Derick pointed her in the direction of thinking critically about her IBLP upbringing and her father’s control, she was ready.  It might have been different if she had been harshly and persistently “corrected” over her normal self-expression.

I would not say that John David was a “lost boy” but only that as a quiet guy who pretty much did what was expected of him, he ran into fewer problems.  I  think he probably got more attention from parents than any of the younger boys because when he and Jana were little there were no “sister moms.”  In that respect, he may have always had to know himself as “second in importance” to Josh.  Yet for a while he was one of two boys when the others were mere girls, and that probably shaped his self image.

In any case, back to Jana, she probably got the most intense discipline both because she was the eldest girl (and Michelle had not yet checked out) and because she was a slightly rebellious girl (by their standards anyway).  It is really sad.

[JermajestyDuggar]

My mom says it’s either terrible twos or terrible teens. Or both. My sister was an easy toddler but a wild teen. I was a terrible toddler but a fairly easy teen (except for my sarcastic smart ass attitude). My stepbrother was always difficult no matter the age growing up. He’s a mellow adult though. Basically we all go through at least one tough period when we are growing up. Sometimes it’s all tough. It just depends on the innate personalities involved and the environment. 

[just_ordinary]

I am not sure I can believe those general characteristics we got from the show or anything coming out of M and JBs mouth about their children’s characters. They all had assigned roles that were played up big time (just as they play up many things big time) and we all know JB and M (and the rest) are prone to lying/concealing the truth/deception. And I am not sure Jana and her older siblings actually carried the brunt of their abusive training. Because with only 3-5 children your are probably still able to engage, explain, take some time… but when the number grows they need to be less individual more work bee, just function no matter what. So I think the children that needed „correction“ before it could be passed onto older siblings when they also had too many to actually care for had it probably worse. No time or nerves to even try the gentle approach first. 
I don’t think Jana had it any worse than any of her sisters. She has a couple of years more of sister mum but she seems to have transitioned very quickly into the disciplinary head sister (which is completely f‘up too). I also think she wasn’t more „rebellious“ than Jessa for example, which played this part before. People just have a hard time accepting that Jana was a victim of horrible abuse but has, as many others in this cult, taken it on and is now the abuser. I don’t think she got corrected worse, or had it any harder than any of the others.

[EmCatlyn]

2 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

…. 
I don’t think Jana had it any worse than any of her sisters. She has a couple of years more of sister mum but she seems to have transitioned very quickly into the disciplinary head sister (which is completely f‘up too). I also think she wasn’t more „rebellious“ than Jessa for example, which played this part before. People just have a hard time accepting that Jana was a victim of horrible abuse but has, as many others in this cult, taken it on and is now the abuser. I don’t think she got corrected worse, or had it any harder than any of the others.

I don’t think it is a question of “who had it worse” as much as it is a question of why would Michelle remember Jana as a “difficult” and rebellious child when by the time she appears in the show she is anything but.  Granted that the Duggars can’t be trusted in general, this is the sort of comment that seems to have no reason other than this is what Michelle remembers.

Why is Jana the way she is when her sisters, raised in the same environment, made different choices?  We aren’t making excuses for her when we speculate that there may have been more attention paid to “breaking” her into the daughter Michelle wanted.  It is possible, as you suggest, that the daughters that came before Michelle could rely on Jana and Jill to help raise the younger ones (these would be Jessa and Jinger) may have been disciplined more harshly than Jana, since Michelle might have had less patience.  But being disciplined more harshly doesn’t mean that you are more likely to be “broken.”  It is more complicated than that.

None of the Duggar daughters so far has shown any real rebellion against what they were trained to be, but Jana seems to embrace the lifestyle more thoroughly than the others with one big difference: although she is supposed to have married and started a family of her own at least 10 years ago, she has opted to remain unmarried.  She has stayed in her parents’ house and watched her younger siblings marry and start families.  She may (or may not) be a “disciplinarian” to her younger siblings, but in many ways her life seems passive, as though she has no idea of herself beyond her role in her parents’ house.  

All her grown siblings have moved into the adulthood that was expected of them, but not Jana. To be sure JB and Michelle may not want to be without her. That may be the real answer.  Or it may be that she could only rebel by not marrying. It may be the one thing in her life that felt like her choice.

To write sympathetically about Jana is not to deny that she is an adult who is helping her parents and siblings perpetuate a very nasty, abusive cult.  In my view, all the Duggar siblings were abused.  And yet we have to hold them responsible when they pass on the abuse to the next generation.

[SassyPants]

She focuses on Jana’s behaviors and some of Jessa’s because beyond them, she didnt do much of the parenting. When Jana was young and in need of training in Gothard’s eyes, there were only 2 others to worry about (should have focused more on the first one’s behaviors). By the time 10, 12, 14 and 16 came along, Michelle was lucky to know their names, let alone their behaviors. Jana would probably be able to tell you more about those details.

[JermajestyDuggar]

4 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

She focuses on Jana’s behaviors and some of Jessa’s because beyond them, she didnt do much of the parenting. When Jana was young and in need of training in Gothard’s eyes, there were only 2 others to worry about (should have focused more on the first one’s behaviors). By the time 10, 12, 14 and 16 came along, Michelle was lucky to know their names, let alone their behaviors. Jana would probably be able to tell you more about those details.

I agree. But I really wonder about the dynamics today. They now have z as small number of children again. Only 6. Are JB and Michelle actually parenting them? So they get to know them now? Or are they largely ignored most of the time? 

[SassyPants]

Just now, JermajestyDuggar said:

I agree. But I really wonder about the dynamics today. They now have z as small number of children again. Only 6. Are JB and Michelle actually parenting them? So they get to know them now? Or are they largely ignored most of the time? 

I’m betting those kids are pretty free range. JB and M are cruising towards 60, the grind has to have gotten old long ago. Having that many kids is criminal. No one can do it well.

[rosamundi]

7 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I agree. But I really wonder about the dynamics today. They now have z as small number of children again. Only 6. Are JB and Michelle actually parenting them? So they get to know them now? Or are they largely ignored most of the time? 

I would honestly think they're out of the habit of parenting, if that makes sense. They must be so used to having the sister mums picking up the pieces that they may not even know what is age and developmentally appropriate parenting for the ones that are still at home.

[Someone Out There]

18 hours ago, arareyeah said:

Never had casserole because I don't think we have anything similar in our cuisine. Maybe because oven is not something we use in traditional cuisine. Maybe I should try looking for them in Western restaurant?

If it helps, in general Casseroles and Stews are basically the same thing, except Casseroles are cooked in the Oven while Stews are cooked on the Stove.  I think most if not all cuisines have some sort of Stew type recipe (I could of course be very wrong).

[SassyPants]

46 minutes ago, rosamundi said:

I would honestly think they're out of the habit of parenting, if that makes sense. They must be so used to having the sister mums picking up the pieces that they may not even know what is age and developmentally appropriate parenting for the ones that are still at home.

I think they actively stopped being the primary parents around the time Joy (#9) was born. Joy is now 24. It’s been a long time. Plus, JB and M never seemed particularly interested in pouring into their children as individuals, and operated from a point of control and brainwashing. Actual parenting? Well, we saw how they handled a real problem. They didnt.

[Bastet]

8 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

None of the Duggar daughters so far has shown any real rebellion against what they were trained to be, but Jana seems to embrace the lifestyle more thoroughly than the others with one big difference: although she is supposed to have married and started a family of her own at least 10 years ago, she has opted to remain unmarried.  She has stayed in her parents’ house and watched her younger siblings marry and start families.  She may (or may not) be a “disciplinarian” to her younger siblings, but in many ways her life seems passive, as though she has no idea of herself beyond her role in her parents’ house.  

Yes, perhaps the strong-willed aspect of her personality is shown in her resistance to getting married. At some point she likely had more value to m and jb through a Jana Gets Married wedding special than through her work caring for siblings, especially in later years, yet she remained single. (Perhaps it’s significant that it’s only after the show was gone that she showed interest in the Wissman man.) And as others have noted, servitude to a husband in the cult may have had little appeal given the relative freedom she has in her current role. Being in charge of her siblings would have given play to any assertive  aspect of her personality too, and sadly, if she had been particularly abused, she might have gotten satisfaction from abusing them in turn. 
   All this is highly speculative of course, but on a related point not here made by emcatlyn, declarations  that she should be held entirely responsible for any abuse of hers of the younger Duggars are also based on speculations about Jana. We simply don’t know if she can see through ATI nonsense and the constraints of her education and culture. The fact that others raised in the cult can says nothing about whether she, with her particular psychological strengths and weaknesses and raised in that particular environment is able to. Maybe yes, maybe no—we simply don’t know and likely never will. I understand why people say that at a certain point, it’s on her; in the absence of such knowledge we need to generally hold people responsible for their actions for the health of society. I do not underestimate the evil she may have participated in—blanket training in itself is horrifying—but the horror itself doesn’t make her culpable, nor does our healthy preference that people be held responsible for their actions. 

Edited January 13, 2022 by Bastet

[xenobia]

2 hours ago, rosamundi said:

I would honestly think they're out of the habit of parenting, if that makes sense. They must be so used to having the sister mums picking up the pieces that they may not even know what is age and developmentally appropriate parenting for the ones that are still at home.

Parenting - I agree. They haven't done it in a very long while, and I don't think they care much now either. But on the other hand I think they will be very strict when they chose husbands for the lost girls. They don't want to let another Derick (or Jeremy) slip under the radar. Johannah is 16, and will turn 17 later this year. They will very soon find her a suitable fundie boy to marry. Unfortunately. 

[SassyPants]

I think Jana isn’t married and tending a brood of her own because she likes her life and lifestyle. Some people, even fundies, remain single their entire lives and are happy doing so. In the world outside of fundiedom, an unmarried 32 YO wouldn’t be considered unusual, but in her fold it stands out more. I think at this point, it could be considered an active choice on her part. Plus what would be the parameters for a 32 YO dating? 12 YO Chaperones? Daddy monitoring your texts and phone calls? How would she navigate that? Frankly, it’s ridiculous at this point.

[just_ordinary]

8 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

I don’t think it is a question of “who had it worse” as much as it is a question of why would Michelle remember Jana as a “difficult” and rebellious child when by the time she appears in the show she is anything but.  Granted that the Duggars can’t be trusted in general, this is the sort of comment that seems to have no reason other than this is what Michelle remembers.

Why is Jana the way she is when her sisters, raised in the same environment, made different choices?  We aren’t making excuses for her when we speculate that there may have been more attention paid to “breaking” her into the daughter Michelle wanted.  It is possible, as you suggest, that the daughters that came before Michelle could rely on Jana and Jill to help raise the younger ones (these would be Jessa and Jinger) may have been disciplined more harshly than Jana, since Michelle might have had less patience.  But being disciplined more harshly doesn’t mean that you are more likely to be “broken.”  It is more complicated than that.

None of the Duggar daughters so far has shown any real rebellion against what they were trained to be, but Jana seems to embrace the lifestyle more thoroughly than the others with one big difference: although she is supposed to have married and started a family of her own at least 10 years ago, she has opted to remain unmarried.  She has stayed in her parents’ house and watched her younger siblings marry and start families.  She may (or may not) be a “disciplinarian” to her younger siblings, but in many ways her life seems passive, as though she has no idea of herself beyond her role in her parents’ house.  

All her grown siblings have moved into the adulthood that was expected of them, but not Jana. To be sure JB and Michelle may not want to be without her. That may be the real answer.  Or it may be that she could only rebel by not marrying. It may be the one thing in her life that felt like her choice.

To write sympathetically about Jana is not to deny that she is an adult who is helping her parents and siblings perpetuate a very nasty, abusive cult.  In my view, all the Duggar siblings were abused.  And yet we have to hold them responsible when they pass on the abuse to the next generation.

It’s not that people can not or should not be sympathetic to the victim Jana. But to me it seems people love to come up with lots of completely speculative (at best) theories to make her more of a victim, having the best work ethic, the protector of her little siblings, the secret rebel that doesn’t want to have a husband and children….. just because this CinderJana narrative is so strong.

I do wonder why? Because she presents as caring and pleasant? Because those people can not be assholes at heart? I don’t deny and I have lots of sympathy for those children and I do think those abuse and brain washing tactics do have a lingering effect well into adulthood. But to me, Jana especially seems to have taken on her parents lifestyle the most. Even more then Jessa who has shown some real changes and if it’s just seeming to be a more gentle parent and care more about nutrition. Planting a vegetable garden is all nice and well, but this seems to have no impact on their food. At least not publicly visible. And there can be many options as to why Jana the individual has become like that. She might be more broken. But there is just as good of a chance she is just a bigoted asshole. But it just seems as if in Jana’s particular case the first instinct for most is the first option. Interestingly, the male or more “uneasy” women (Jessa, Lauren) don’t get the same privilege.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

26 minutes ago, just_ordinary said:

It’s not that people can not or should not be sympathetic to the victim Jana. But to me it seems people love to come up with lots of completely speculative (at best) theories to make her more of a victim, having the best work ethic, the protector of her little siblings, the secret rebel that doesn’t want to have a husband and children….. just because this CinderJana narrative is so strong.

I do wonder why? Because she presents as caring and pleasant? Because those people can not be assholes at heart? I don’t deny and I have lots of sympathy for those children and I do think those abuse and brain washing tactics do have a lingering effect well into adulthood. But to me, Jana especially seems to have taken on her parents lifestyle the most. Even more then Jessa who has shown some real changes and if it’s just seeming to be a more gentle parent and care more about nutrition. Planting a vegetable garden is all nice and well, but this seems to have no impact on their food. At least not publicly visible. And there can be many options as to why Jana the individual has become like that. She might be more broken. But there is just as good of a chance she is just a bigoted asshole. But it just seems as if in Jana’s particular case the first instinct for most is the first option. Interestingly, the male or more “uneasy” women (Jessa, Lauren) don’t get the same privilege.

This is so well said, thank you for putting words to how I feel about this.

I do think a great deal of the slack she is cut is due to people buying into the same hype the fundies love.  She's pretty, posts about pleasant hobbies, such a nice girl. 

She's better than some of the others at not saying the quiet parts outloud, that doesn't make adult Jana worthy of sympathy.

 

 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 hours ago, Bastet said:

 I do not underestimate the evil she may have participated in—blanket training in itself is horrifying—but the horror itself doesn’t make her culpable, nor does our healthy preference that people be held responsible for their actions. 

We can acknowledge people growing up in very abusive environments and still hold them culpable for their actions as adults.  

Most serial killers had terribly abusive childhoods.  A large percentage of domestic abusers were raised in homes where they witnessed or experienced violence.  That's a reason, but not an excuse.

People aren't culpable for their actions if they have some kind limited mental or cognitive functioning which rises to the level they are actually incapable of thinking critically or truly don't know right from wrong.  Barring that adults are responsible for the abuse the perpetuate, full stop.  

Otherwise, we might as well give up caring about any abuse of children because the vast majority of perpetrators can point to their own childhood for a free pass.  

[Bastet]

1 hour ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

We can acknowledge people growing up in very abusive environments and still hold them culpable for their actions as adults.  

Most serial killers had terribly abusive childhoods.  A large percentage of domestic abusers were raised in homes where they witnessed or experienced violence.  That's a reason, but not an excuse.

People aren't culpable for their actions if they have some kind limited mental or cognitive functioning which rises to the level they are actually incapable of thinking critically or truly don't know right from wrong.  Barring that adults are responsible for the abuse the perpetuate, full stop.  

Otherwise, we might as well give up caring about any abuse of children because the vast majority of perpetrators can point to their own childhood for a free pass.  

I would argue that some serial killers are not culpable for their crimes—they may not be able to refrain from committing them. We just don’t know. The horror of what they do is not enough for us to say. We need to stop them, of course, whether that’s in jail or in a mental hospital for life, so no free pass, but we can’t see into their hearts to judge them. (Maybe that’s where we differ? We both want to hold them accountable legally, but I see them as perhaps psychologically not accountable.)
  That’s how I see Jana: we cannot know what she feels, understands, sees. If she is hurting children now and I had the power, I would stop her, but I could never know what’s in her heart and could never judge her. (Please understand that I  believe victims are nevertheless entitled to their anger. )

Edited January 13, 2022 by Bastet

[HerNameIsBuffy]

6 minutes ago, Bastet said:

I would argue that some serial killers are not culpable for their crimes—they may not be able to refrain from committing them. We just don’t know. The horror of what they do is not enough for us to say. We need to stop them, of course, whether that’s in jail or in a mental hospital for life, but we can’t see into their hearts to judge them. 
  That’s how I see Jana: we cannot know what she feels, understands, sees. If she is hurting children now and I had the power, I would stop her, but I could never know what’s in her heart and could never judge her. (Please understand that I  believe victims are nevertheless entitled to their anger. )

I think that's a very kind outlook and you're a compassionate person.  

Personally, I think it also infantilizes adults by refusing to judge them based on standards we set in our society.  I do agree in such cases where they have some kind of impairment by which they would be judged legally incompetent.

[Father Son Holy Goat]

I wonder how much of it is purity culture. Perhaps Jana carries guilt over a perfectly normal thing and it makes her feel better to be sexually “pure.” Given her exposure to sex was Josh abusing her siblings and her parents doing whatever the hell they do (I seem to recall humping at a golf course) it wouldn’t be odd that she has some issues beyond purity culture

[Bastet]

56 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I think that's a very kind outlook and you're a compassionate person.  

Personally, I think it also infantilizes adults by refusing to judge them based on standards we set in our society.  I do agree in such cases where they have some kind of impairment by which they would be judged legally incompetent.

 I’m sure you did not intend it as such, but characterizing me as kind and compassionate feels condescending; I view my analysis as realistic. I believe in legally holding perpetrators to societal standards. We should continue to send them to jail. How does that infantilize them?
 

[arareyeah]

I agree that Jana is comfortable with her current condition. She can do what she wants (within JB's limits), and no actual responsibilities. Perhaps the idea of churning kids after being a sistermom for so long doesn't appeal much. Yes of course her siblings will ask her to babysit all the time until they ran out of babies in the next decade or so, but babysitting a bunch of kids for a few hours every day is not the same with having to stay up late every night because your baby is colicky and another is throwing a tantrum at the same time. Being a sistermom, she already went through that for years so I think she's done. Plus, as the years go by some of the girls like Mac are old enough to be sistermoms/cousin-moms to help or even take the reign as the main babysitter.

I wonder what will happen when JB departs. Who'll be Jana's new headship if she remains unmarried? Her brothers?

 

[viii]

5 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Frankly, it’s ridiculous at this point.

It's ridiculous at any point, tbh.