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Fundy Reaction Responses to Smuggar's Guilty Verdict 2


HerNameIsBuffy

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47 minutes ago, nokidsmom said:

No they didn't do any favors to their kids.   At all.   And events in recent weeks certainly showed yet one more time, how they failed their kids.

And another thing that Jill needed to adjust to (I remember this being discussed at the time) was the concept of going to work at an outside job and the necessary obligations in holding it down with regards to Derick.   She was used to "Duggar time" and also it was mentioned that JB was often at home, not having to leave the house on a regular basis in order to work, so she was used to him being around.    The idea that a regular job involved being away from home was just alien to her.   

I got married around same age as Jill and while there are always adjustments to make early in marriage the idea of Mr. No being away because of  work was not one of them. 

I was a bit worried for Jill at first but she's come a long way.   And while Derick can be a jerk at times, he has shown to be a supportive husband to her.

I too got married at 23 and was very concerned for Jill. At 23, I had so many more life experiences than her, including living on my own in a large city thousands of miles away from home at 18. But even for me and Mr. Sullie, who I had been with for 5 years at that point, the first year of marriage was an adjustment. But I could not imagine coming from Jill's background and being thrust into this new world. Just the thought of how quiet it must have been, being alone for probably the first time ever while Derek worked, suddenly being able to make her own choices (which I think Derek fosters). The Duggars really set their adult children up to fail, and I think part of that was designed. They don't want them venturing to far from home and not relying on them anymore, then they lose their control. 

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I find the dynamics of the Duggar children's marriages fascinating. I don't think anyone expected Jill to have so much autonomy and agency as she does, and I think we do have to credit Derrick with that because she was so pliable and vulnerable to control when they married, another man would have found it very easy to keep her towing the line had he wished to. Jill seems to me to be the most free of all-even more than the boys.

JinJer seem to have gone champagne christian in LA. I am a little bit sad that Jinger hasn't fully broken from the shackles of her upbringing. I was really hoping she would be the rebel. 

The one couple I have very high hopes for now is Joy and Austin. I genuinely think this whole disgusting affair with Josh will bring them closer together and perhaps re examine everything they have been taught. When they first got together, I thought it was an odd paring, Austin seemed so serious and Joy so bubbly. But knowing everything we know now, Austin is probably just what Joy needs. 

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6 hours ago, 3KidsAndStopped said:

I find the dynamics of the Duggar children's marriages fascinating. I don't think anyone expected Jill to have so much autonomy and agency as she does, and I think we do have to credit Derrick with that because she was so pliable and vulnerable to control when they married, another man would have found it very easy to keep her towing the line had he wished to. Jill seems to me to be the most free of all-even more than the boys.

JinJer seem to have gone champagne christian in LA. I am a little bit sad that Jinger hasn't fully broken from the shackles of her upbringing. I was really hoping she would be the rebel. 

The one couple I have very high hopes for now is Joy and Austin. I genuinely think this whole disgusting affair with Josh will bring them closer together and perhaps re examine everything they have been taught. When they first got together, I thought it was an odd paring, Austin seemed so serious and Joy so bubbly. But knowing everything we know now, Austin is probably just what Joy needs. 

Just keep in mind Austin's family is not only friends with the Pearls, but has them at speakers at their camp lecturing others on marriage and parenting.

We know so little from their public personas it's easy to ascribe positive traits to those who are quieter, but that doesn't mean they're accurate.

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7 hours ago, 3KidsAndStopped said:

I don't think anyone expected Jill to have so much autonomy and agency as she does, and I think we do have to credit Derrick with that because she was so pliable and vulnerable to control when they married, another man would have found it very easy to keep her towing the line had he wished to. Jill seems to me to be the most free of all-even more than the boys.

I am happy for Jill that she's in therapy and of all the kids seems to see some of the flaws in her upbringing.

But keep in mind she hasn't made a life change or decision that wasn't also what Derek wanted.  She may be just as pliable as ever, just to a different leader.  I'm sure stuff like her clothes and hair and such are things she chooses for herself, but not all fundies wore the frumpers or modern modest anyway.  

I hope they are making the big decisions jointly, and maybe they are, like everyone else I just know them from their public personas.  But if Derek decided tomorrow that he wanted her to homeschool the kids would she argue against that, being in the best interest of her boys to get an adequate education?  Or would she follow Derek's directive as the head of their family.  None of us knows.

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31 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

But keep in mind she hasn't made a life change or decision that wasn't also what Derek wanted.  She may be just as pliable as ever, just to a different leader.  I'm sure stuff like her clothes and hair and such are things she chooses for herself, but not all fundies wore the frumpers or modern modest anyway. 

This is always at the back of my mind when it comes to Jill and Derick.  While I applaud her progress, I certainly hope that behind the scenes that Derick is not the one pulling all the strings, that decisions are jointly made or if she is making a decision solely of her own accord that Derick is supporting her in those. 

It could very well be that Jill and Derick are a true team who work together and support each other but given Jill's upbringing it's reasonable to consider the possibility that Jill has swapped one leader for another.   Only time will tell I guess.

 

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18 minutes ago, nokidsmom said:

This is always at the back of my mind when it comes to Jill and Derick.  While I applaud her progress, I certainly hope that behind the scenes that Derick is not the one pulling all the strings, that decisions are jointly made or if she is making a decision solely of her own accord that Derick is supporting her in those. 

It could very well be that Jill and Derick are a true team who work together and support each other but given Jill's upbringing it's reasonable to consider the possibility that Jill has swapped one leader for another.   Only time will tell I guess.

 

I understand the reaction, but I think there have been a few hints that she is growing my independent.  In one of their videos they were discussing the creation of the earth and it became very clear her and Derrick have very different opinions and clearly have debates over this.  I think she also is more comfortable drinking than Derrick is at times.  These are small steps, but there is some evidence that she has her own viewpoints and is allowed to push back against Derrick.

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Just discovered this writer on Instagram. She left ATI, but I’m commenting here, because she has a lot of insightful  content responding to Josh’s trial and verdict and unpacking the complicity of the women in ATI. I’ll include a few screenshots below where she talks about how the women train themselves to NOT advocate for their children.  @Tialevingswriter 

Spoiler

2718E6A6-50BB-478A-88D5-FFFBDB4CFE70.thumb.png.31c9898a06f446e11f1286af33d8ab1c.png39A7FBC4-C75E-42CD-A965-F2DA866D0A01.thumb.png.4c049c3d0f1e2d79dbae8ba46fd18ad7.pngA802F362-7133-492D-BFA4-0B6262DC3CB7.thumb.png.2cc167fe534816c5805d3f61f45f1fb9.png754BD2D6-D990-4AB9-B5E4-CEBDF5D51CC1.thumb.png.86c5344bd1b9b369b6d3a25a34abde46.png

 

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On 12/29/2021 at 3:51 AM, 3KidsAndStopped said:

JinJer seem to have gone champagne christian in LA. I am a little bit sad that Jinger hasn't fully broken from the shackles of her upbringing. I was really hoping she would be the rebel. 

Champagne Christian?

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On 12/29/2021 at 10:19 AM, nokidsmom said:

This is always at the back of my mind when it comes to Jill and Derick.  While I applaud her progress, I certainly hope that behind the scenes that Derick is not the one pulling all the strings, that decisions are jointly made or if she is making a decision solely of her own accord that Derick is supporting her in those. 

It could very well be that Jill and Derick are a true team who work together and support each other but given Jill's upbringing it's reasonable to consider the possibility that Jill has swapped one leader for another.   Only time will tell I guess.

It has always seemed that Derick does not have the type of personality to be a control freak. I'm sure there are non-negotiables, like maybe the boys in public school, but I get the distinct impression that he supports her in her search for who she is outside of IBLP and being a Duggar. She sure doesn't seem to be "meek" in the videos of the two of them. I love watching them, flying sarcasm, eye rolling (both sides), all that stuff that would never, ever fly in a typical IBLP type marriage. They've come a long way, they have a long way to go. 

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On 12/29/2021 at 10:40 AM, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I am happy for Jill that she's in therapy and of all the kids seems to see some of the flaws in her upbringing.

But keep in mind she hasn't made a life change or decision that wasn't also what Derek wanted.  She may be just as pliable as ever, just to a different leader.  I'm sure stuff like her clothes and hair and such are things she chooses for herself, but not all fundies wore the frumpers or modern modest anyway.  

I hope they are making the big decisions jointly, and maybe they are, like everyone else I just know them from their public personas.  But if Derek decided tomorrow that he wanted her to homeschool the kids would she argue against that, being in the best interest of her boys to get an adequate education?  Or would she follow Derek's directive as the head of their family.  None of us knows.

I agree. It's possible that Jill has set the tone for Derrick's words and actions, but given her upbringing and what he has publicly shown of his personality, it's equally likely that she is following his headship.

My sister-in-law used to be best friends with her mother (my mother-in-law), but when SIL married for the second time, her husband began speaking out about how controlling SIL's mother was. There was truth in this, but from my vantage point, my SIL replaced having her mother make her decisions with having her husband control everything. Eight years into the marriage, and my SIL is completely estranged from her family and all of her former friends, lost her business due to husband convincing her to turn over control to him even though he knew nothing about cosmetology, and has now moved five states away from her children from her first marriage.

I'm not arguing that Derrick is a bad person of the type my SIL's husband is because I don't know him. But I also don't assume that someone loudly speaking out against their partner's family is necessarily acting as simply a mouthpiece for their partner. 

For me, the "I" instead of "we" typo in the middle of the initial release of their statement about Josh's conviction raises further questions.

 

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18 hours ago, cacophony_grey said:

I agree. It's possible that Jill has set the tone for Derrick's words and actions, but given her upbringing and what he has publicly shown of his personality, it's equally likely that she is following his headship.

My sister-in-law used to be best friends with her mother (my mother-in-law), but when SIL married for the second time, her husband began speaking out about how controlling SIL's mother was. There was truth in this, but from my vantage point, my SIL replaced having her mother make her decisions with having her husband control everything. Eight years into the marriage, and my SIL is completely estranged from her family and all of her former friends, lost her business due to husband convincing her to turn over control to him even though he knew nothing about cosmetology, and has now moved five states away from her children from her first marriage.

I'm not arguing that Derrick is a bad person of the type my SIL's husband is because I don't know him. But I also don't assume that someone loudly speaking out against their partner's family is necessarily acting as simply a mouthpiece for their partner. 

For me, the "I" instead of "we" typo in the middle of the initial release of their statement about Josh's conviction raises further questions.

 

It is probable that Jill’s thinking has been very much influenced by Derick’s.  I suspect also that because of her background she might let him take the lead.  However, that doesn’t mean that Derick is bullying her, and I do get the sense that he is protective of her.

The situation is tricky because we want Jill to “see the light,” but we want her to see it for herself, not just echo what her husband says. Maybe we should be content that she has started the process of moving away from ATI, but that it may take a while before she can think for herself.  Maybe following Derick will be the way she escapes.

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10 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

It is probable that Jill’s thinking has been very much influenced by Derick’s.  I suspect also that because of her background she might let him take the lead.  However, that doesn’t mean that Derick is bullying her, and I do get the sense that he is protective of her.

The situation is tricky because we want Jill to “see the light,” but we want her to see it for herself, not just echo what her husband says. Maybe we should be content that she has started the process of moving away from ATI, but that it may take a while before she can think for herself.  Maybe following Derick will be the way she escapes.

I think Derick has given her the courage to pursue secular therapy. They've said they see a secular marriage counselor too. I don't get the impression he pushes her around. He's very protective of her, but also very supportive. I see it as Jill wants to get mentally healthy and strong, and Derick has given her the strength and courage to pursue the breaking away from the whole IFB and IBLP cult thinking. Listening to her talk in her recent videos, she seems to be dropping a lot of the IBLP vocabulary like "authority" and shit like that. I have a feeling that Derick has a very strong personality and is aware that he could easily steamroller right over her so he pulls back and bites his tongue a lot so she can make the decisions she needs to make without him telling her the "right" answer. 

That picture of them walking into the court together said volumes. She is not the cowed little "jilly-muffn" anymore. 

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On 12/29/2021 at 9:51 AM, 3KidsAndStopped said:

JinJer seem to have gone champagne christian in LA.

Never heard that expression before, but I’m loving it! 😁

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  • 3 weeks later...
18 minutes ago, Beermeet said:

I don't know where to put this so, I picked here.  It is technically a response.  I came across this survivor and she's out and speaking up via IG ,she's also been writing a book.  Interesting insights on her IG. 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CY__0-gle62/?utm_medium=copy_link

Yes! I’ve been following her since the trial, and it’s so insightful. Lots of confirmation of what we discuss here but interesting insider POV. 

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6 hours ago, neuroticcat said:

Yes! I’ve been following her since the trial, and it’s so insightful. Lots of confirmation of what we discuss here but interesting insider POV. 

It's really creepier than I imagined.  I mean, all I can do is imagine.  This is really making me understand more. Especially her thoughts on Anna. Her description of what she went through is straight up hell on Earth,  she had to tone down the violence in her book as it was too much for the general public, she said.  She made it out though.  

 

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On 1/21/2022 at 6:34 PM, Beermeet said:

It's really creepier than I imagined.  I mean, all I can do is imagine.  This is really making me understand more. Especially her thoughts on Anna. Her description of what she went through is straight up hell on Earth,  she had to tone down the violence in her book as it was too much for the general public, she said.  She made it out though.  

 

Agree. I mean, we know the reality shows and even fundie influencer/blogs out a shine on things but to hear about the poverty domestic violence and being totally trapped, there is nothing to cover over the absolute hideousness of the lifestyle. I am so glad she made it out and seems to have recovered agency and is ready to tell her story and help others.

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On 1/21/2022 at 2:26 PM, Beermeet said:

I don't know where to put this so, I picked here.  It is technically a response.  I came across this survivor and she's out and speaking up via IG ,she's also been writing a book.  Interesting insights on her IG. 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CY__0-gle62/?utm_medium=copy_link

I know people from these circles who escaped multiple arranged marriages.  Child brides were common in some areas.  Sexual abuse is rife.  Actual trafficking.  Some of these churches are actually just sex cults.  

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1 hour ago, Sarcastically spinster said:

Some of these churches are actually just sex cults.  

It sounds crazy, but I'm beginning to put ILBP in that category.

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9 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

It sounds crazy, but I'm beginning to put ILBP in that category.

I don't think it's crazy.  

Gothard used ATI/IBLP as cover to get what he wanted sexually.  He taught abuse counselling that was victim blaming.  It was an entire structure set up in a way that would facilitate and cover up sexual abuse, including of minors.  

No way of knowing if that's how it started, or how much that was his initial motivation for starting it all.  But it certainly became a major piece of the IBLP model.  Some of the stories on Recovering Grace are straight up trafficking.  

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On 1/21/2022 at 11:26 AM, Beermeet said:

I don't know where to put this so, I picked here.  It is technically a response.  I came across this survivor and she's out and speaking up via IG ,she's also been writing a book.  Interesting insights on her IG. 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CY__0-gle62/?utm_medium=copy_link

I've also been following her. The Duggars try to make ATI/IBLP sound so wholesome and wonderful for families. The reality is the opposite. I do feel sorry for Anna. She's been steeped in patriarchy her entire life and may well be totally onboard with what they teach. She has seven children, is alone, has limited education, is surrounded by her in-laws, and likely doesn't have resources to go out on her own if she wanted to do so. She may even believe that she is to blame for Josh's transgressions. IF she believes he did download the garbage.

I would so love to be a fly on the wall for all the Duggar family discussions about Josh and his trial. I'm hesitant to accept that anyone other than Jill has seen the truth. Some others may think Josh is guilty but remain firmly with the family. I'll have to wait and see. I just think there is so much at stake for anyone who might question JB and everything they've been taught. They have seen what happened to Jill. How many would risk losing their family? Access to siblings? Access to the money/employment? Being allowed to live on property owned by JB? None of the Duggars have much formal education so their options may be limited. They do know how to do things so I wish some of them would go to school to earn certifications or to qualify officially for what they already do on family owned property.

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