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(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 44 - Fate in the hands of the jury


HerNameIsBuffy

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I can understand why the jury wanted a break. The consequences are pretty grave if they get the verdict wrong in either direction. From a juror’s perspective, wrongful conviction would mean sending a father of seven away to prison for a long time, severely impacting the kids’ lives. Wrongful acquittal means allowing a predator to live free and probably harm more kids. I think it’s reasonable to want an evening to decompress and think things over without the distraction of other jurors also processing or a room full of lawyers waiting for an answer. 
 

I joked about waiting for free lunch when I was on a jury, but that case was much less consequential. It was two guys suing for wrongful termination/age discrimination because they were let go from employment as state fraud investigators. The state’s defense attorneys presented a mountain of evidence showing the plaintiffs had engaged in fraud themselves by running side businesses while on the clock for their state jobs, and getting paid “under the table” for construction jobs for local municipal governments. They were lucky they only lost their jobs and weren’t brought up on criminal charges, but they had the audacity to sue and claim millions of dollars in lost potential earnings. Both had prior careers with the federal government, so had pensions from that, and had worked for the state long enough to get a partial pension (which they didn’t lose upon termination because their boss just let their contracts expire without renewal, versus active termination). It really wasn’t a difficult deliberation for the jury, but we still had to go through each of the components of the law and make we agreed that terms were/weren’t met before we could sign the verdict form.

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I’ve dreamed for the last two nights that he was found guilty. I don’t know what that means but I’m hoping it’s a premonition.

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My biggest fear right now is that the jury will return with either not guilty or be hung and this thing going on even longer. To me, and I know pretty much everyone hear, Josh is guilty. The evidence is there, he has prior predatory behaviors, he admitted he downloaded the partition, his first words to police was him asking about child porn, his “I’m not saying I’m not guilty.”

It just seems so cut and dry to me. But no, according to the defense it’s not. Yeah right, a conspiracy… He was framed. Why would anybody want to hack and frame someone like Josh Duggar? He’s a Z list “celebrity.”

The facts are there. And in regards to the Duggars being ‘cancelled,’ the Duggar Family Blog, which is run by Duggar superfans Lily and Ellie… It hasn’t been updated since November 20. There was a post saying happy first birthday to Evangeline, but it sense been taken down. I’m wondering if all of the information that has come out of the trial and Jim Bob’s lies of not remembering has had some effect. I mean this blog basically glossed over the molestation of the sisters and the cheating… But this… Something tells me that Lily and Ellie are now seeing the Duggars for who they really are. The rose tinted glasses are off and now the red flags are abundantly clear. 

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I don't know if it was posted on this thread or another, but someone shared jury deliberation times for famous cases. In almost all of them, the jury took 10 hours to days to deliberate. The jury had 4 hours-- less when you consider that they also had lunch and picked a foreperson. It's disappointing but really not surprising and certainly doesn't mean anything bad. 

As for the he's a "white man so he's going to get off" posts, I think people are confusing what privilege actually means. Having privilege in our society means that there are many experiences that are or should be "normal" but are not for others.

For example it is a privilege for a heterosexual white couple to walk down the street without being harassed by strangers ( a privilege I found that I DID NOT have the hard way). It's a privilege not to be shot by police during a routine traffic stop. It's a privilege to not have your resume ignored because your name is "Aaliyah" or "Quan." I realized Ted Bundy had an infuriating level of white male privilege when he escaped jail TWICE and wasn't shot by police--something that simply wouldn't have happened had he been black. But it's worth noting that Bundy was in fact convicted and died in the electric chair.

Because having white privilege doesn't mean that white Christian men are never held accountable. They get to skate on through a lot more than they should historically and in the present, but having a privileged position in life does not mean that bad things will never catch up to you. Scott Peterson was just re-sentenced to life in prison, and the dumbfuck who murdered Ahmad Aurbrey was just convicted. Derick Chauvin was convicted, partly due to the bravery of two young black girls( who certainly do not have privilege historically). Harvey Weinstein was convicted and he is much, much more wealthy and powerful than any measly Duggar.

All this is to say that I think people are nervous and conflating what being privileged actually means. Being a daddy's boy white man in America has helped Josh get away with a lot, but I don't think it matters quite as much now that the prosecution has thrown everything they have at him. While he could be acquitted because even a 1% chance is still a chance, I'm skeptical that all 12 jurors will be convinced to vote not guilty.

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7 hours ago, neuroticcat said:

Also someone asked earlier if Duggars were still in at IBLP. Looks like they were family speakers last year (as were the Bates), so still all in I would guess. Skimming through the page I’m reminded of how cultlike it all feels production wise (weird stodgy books, separate vocabulary) and how many of the leaders are these unimpressive ordinary guys. I remember back when I was really drawn to it, watching some Embassy Media stuff, and the speakers were so b-o-r-I-n-g.

It seems some adult women might be drawn to the cult for its set roles and expectations and the idealized family life and the order it promises out of chaos. I wonder if for the men, it promises really super ordinary guys rockstar status (I remember feeling that with Vision Forum). But I wonder. Who are the real powers at IBLP and what have they done to cover up Gothard, Josh, and how toxic and destructive the teaching is. Do they shut their eyes to it or are they mostly vested in preserving their power? What are they talking about as the trial unfolds? Are they watching? Ignoring? Calculating whether to cut ties with the Duggars or ask for prayer? Maneuvering to keep other secrets from coming out? I still think it’s pretty wild that with all this publicity, Josh’s teen punishment/IBLP center rehab doesn’t get more media scrutiny.

 

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Gil Bates is on the IBLP leadership team and was instrumental in keeping the org afloat when Gothard s was told to leave. The Duggar gen #1 also still participate pretty heavily, and the 2nd gen to varying degrees.

 Both families are still deep in the cult. 

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13 minutes ago, SisterCupcake said:

Gil Bates is on the IBLP leadership team and was instrumental in keeping the org afloat when Gothard s was told to leave. The Duggar gen #1 also still participate pretty heavily, and the 2nd gen to varying degrees.

 Both families are still deep in the cult. 

Random, but I just misread your comment and understood Bill Gates instead of Gil Bates. Have you guys noticed that when one switches the first letters of the names, Gil Bates turned into Bil(l) Gates?!

Now that allows for some juicy conspiracies, doesn’t it? Maybe all members of IBLP have been chipped by him? Or he’s a tech mogul by day and small town father of 19 by night? Or both? 🤣

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15 minutes ago, FluffySnowball said:

Random, but I just misread your comment and understood Bill Gates instead of Gil Bates. Have you guys noticed that when one switches the first letters of the names, Gil Bates turned into Bil(l) Gates?!

Now that allows for some juicy conspiracies, doesn’t it? Maybe all members of IBLP have been chipped by him? Or he’s a tech mogul by day and small town father of 19 by night? Or both? 🤣

We used to live near Seattle because my husband worked for Microsoft. I misread Gil Bates and Bill Gates all. The. Time.🤣

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Okay so IF he gets acquitted. What happens? Anna knows that once again he is looking at porn which is considered cheating. Does he go back to Jesus jail? She can't gloss over and pretend it didn't happen the court proved that he was looking on his work and personal devices.

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35 minutes ago, FluffySnowball said:

Random, but I just misread your comment and understood Bill Gates instead of Gil Bates. Have you guys noticed that when one switches the first letters of the names, Gil Bates turned into Bil(l) Gates?!? 🤣

Gil seems to have been aware of this for a long time.  I recall in one of the very early shows that Gil said something to the effect that he was richer than Bill Gates because Jesus (or something like that).  Even at the time, before I knew how terrible these people really are, I thought that sounded prideful.

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12 minutes ago, SillyDillys said:

Okay so IF he gets acquitted. What happens? Anna knows that once again he is looking at porn which is considered cheating. Does he go back to Jesus jail? She can't gloss over and pretend it didn't happen the court proved that he was looking on his work and personal devices.

I guess she’d try to compartmentalize and tell herself that the whole investigation and trial was based on false accusations.

Deep down, she must know what a scumbag Josh is, though.  

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3 minutes ago, FluffySnowball said:

I guess she’d try to compartmentalize and tell herself that the whole investigation and trial was based on false accusations.

18 minutes ago, SillyDillys said:

Okay so IF he gets acquitted. What happens? Anna knows that once again he is looking at porn which is considered cheating. Does he go back to Jesus jail? She can't gloss over and pretend it didn't happen the court proved that he was looking on his work and personal devices.

They will have a huge Christmas celebration bring Josh back in to the fold and never mention or deal with anything that was said in this trial again and Josh and Anna will go on to continue their extremely messed up marriage and Josh will continue to have his toxic behaviors… more children will likely be brought in to the family… until he gets caught again. This behavior doesn’t go away. I believe in Josh’s case it is compulsive and his family are enablers because they don’t want to cope.

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15 minutes ago, SillyDillys said:

Okay so IF he gets acquitted. What happens? Anna knows that once again he is looking at porn which is considered cheating. Does he go back to Jesus jail? She can't gloss over and pretend it didn't happen the court proved that he was looking on his work and personal devices.

I would assume if he’s acquitted then she and everyone around him will take that to mean “he clearly wasn’t looking at anything at all” rather then “he was doing these things but there was reasonable doubt and thus couldn’t be charged”. If he’s acquitted I think they’ll take it as him being completely innocent rather then what that actually means, that there was enough reasonable doubt that the jury didn’t feel it was beyond reasonable doubt. Like we’d all take it as some how there was enough reasonable doubt but he still did it. I think She wouldn’t take it that way, she’d take it as god showing he was obviously innocent 

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8 hours ago, neuroticcat said:

Scrolling through JB’s Facebook page, I see there are other things he will not allow. Looks like he is trying to spin this as cancel culture and liberals coming for him. Gratifying to see lots of laughing emojis even if comments heavily censored. 
 

The pictures are sad because in the background all the at home kids are still playing the smiling host roles. They really are in their own rural Arkansas echo chamber.

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Cancel culture? Your son is a sick man.  He has needed REAL mental health treatment for a very long time.  Rather than taking responsibility for the issues facing your family you have used the Bible to excuse away your poor parenting skills.  

Your Bible verse you like to always quote   “Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart.” (Proverbs 22:6).  Well, what happened? Is Josh’s recent trial indicative of the way he was “trained up”?

Rather than run for political office, you need to get your life in order JIM-BOB and start acting like a man.  The first step would be going by JIM rather than a name of endearment that would be given to child not a 50 plus year old grown ass man. 
 

Lastly, you side with your pediphile son over your daughter he abused. Who does that? You and Michele make me sick.  You are both horrible parents.  There is no hope for either of you.  I pray that once your son is finally held accountable for his horrible behavior you will take some time for personal reflection over this holiday season to make amends to your daughters and Anna’s children, your grandchildren.  

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12 minutes ago, EyesOpen said:

until he gets caught again. This behavior doesn’t go away

And I think on some level Jim Bob knows this. If Josh is let off the hook, JB will do everything in his power to make sure Josh’s next scandal is covered up. He clearly doesn’t care about protecting children, all he cares about is protecting his brand. I 100 percent think that Jim Bob knows of more horrible behavior by Josh. 

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Ugh… I swear I’m only going to refresh this… periodically today. How am I going to explain not having done any work or house upkeep for a week?! 

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No news - sorry to startle anybody.

Just realized the Duggar lawyers are a St. Louis firm. Their senior member (AKA “of counsel”) is a legendary heavy hitter in criminal defense.  
 

Margulis Gelfand

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13 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

And I think on some level Jim Bob knows this. If Josh is let off the hook, JB will do everything in his power to make sure Josh’s next scandal is covered up. He clearly doesn’t care about protecting children, all he cares about is protecting his brand. I 100 percent think that Jim Bob knows of more horrible behavior by Josh. 

I absolutely agree there is more and JB knows it, I bet he had a real come to Jesus meeting with Josh to try to learn what it was to try to keep it buried.  I don't think Josh would confess to everything, but I bet he tried.

Like everyone here I've been thinking about this a lot.  While I understand the time the jury is taking is perfectly normal and of course we want all juries to take their work seriously, there is something that bothers me.

Put aside all the tech stuff, timelines, etc. and just focus on one thing for a minute:  He said he wasn't denying guilt.

If any of you were raided on a CSAM warrant would those words ever come to mind?  I think most people would be proclaiming innocence, but even if people went silent until speaking with a lawyer that would be a normal response.  

If any of your partners, children, or other loved ones were caught up in a raid like that and that was their response what would your reaction be?  Would you not be terrified?  Would you get into bed that night with someone who said they weren't denying their guilt?  Is there any way you would find that a reasonable response even if it was someone you would never have suspected in a million years?

I know the trial was complicated in parts for some people who don't understand partitions and Linux and Tor, but what human being doesn't weight Josh's own words high enough to call this in a couple of hours at least?  

If you can't explain his reactions to the officers at the raid how can you find reasonable doubt?  

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4 minutes ago, imokit said:

Josh has arrived at court with Anna.

image.thumb.png.36c08047ede7562594d1be73aaef40b0.png

Of course hand-in-hand. How someone could hold the hand of a sick person like him..... 

I wonder what she will wear today.  

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Just now, libgirl2 said:

Of course hand-in-hand. How someone could hold the hand of a sick person like him..... 

I wonder what she will wear today.  

RED

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Just now, imokit said:

Josh has arrived at court with Anna.

image.thumb.png.36c08047ede7562594d1be73aaef40b0.png

Superficial snark, but their handholding is so stupid. 

The way he holds her hand and drags her along reminds me of my kids when little -  I'd hold their hands at Great America and they'd drag me behind them because I wasn't moving toward the roller coasters fast enough. 

There is nothing supportive in that gesture...he's bossy and dragging his irrelevant wife behind as she desperately clings to him.  I'm kind of surprised the defense hasn't suggested they fix how they walk considering the jury isn't sequestered and photos of them entering/leaving court as easy to stumble upon even if not looking for trial news.

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Here we are then...gosh this waiting Is so hard! I can't imagine how It has to be for all those of you who have been touched by this process. I have followed this trial from so far and I can't even begin to imagine how it will going to end I'm torn on the verdict I can see it go both ways even with the high success rate that feds have. 

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