(CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 44 - Fate in the hands of the jury

[WhoDatGirl]

8 minutes ago, Queen Of Hearts said:

I feel slightly better knowing the judge ended deliberations for the day, rather than the jury asking to end and resume tomorrow.  

The People article said the opposite, unfortunately. " When the jurors were called back to the courtroom at 5 p.m., they told the judge they wanted to break for the night. They begin again Thursday morning." 

[Queen Of Hearts]

2 minutes ago, WhoDatGirl said:

The People article said the opposite, unfortunately. " When the jurors were called back to the courtroom at 5 p.m., they told the judge they wanted to break for the night. They begin again Thursday morning." 

Ugh, damn.  

[Mama Mia]

23 minutes ago, Beermeet said:

Given the unfortunate political climate and how the far right think and behave, this stance is not surprising.  It's bottom feeding,  low vibration thinking, and taps into a ready base.  JB is slimy asf.   

While wondering how Josh, JB, M and the kids could be thinking,  it's very possible they believe the conspiracy since they buy into the Trump bullshit.  Persecution complex is always off the charts with fundies anyway.  I could see it.  Ben is all concerned about gay people still, I mean.....

From all their wording, and the entire family, and all their adjuncts, and even their groupies very explicitly NOT defending Josh’s innocence - I think it’s more referring to the family being blamed/cancelled for Josh and his actions. They aren’t going to come out and say he’s guilty- but as others have noted there is a really remarkable lack of being sure he’s innocent. 
 

I know we don’t discuss the horrid details here — and some people haven’t read the breakdown from court - but there are things in there that even the most obnoxious die-hard fundamentalist could not possibly explain away as being like any other sin - sexual or otherwise. 

[Beermeet]

32 minutes ago, neuroticcat said:

Also someone asked earlier if Duggars were still in at IBLP. Looks like they were family speakers last year (as were the Bates), so still all in I would guess. Skimming through the page I’m reminded of how cultlike it all feels production wise (weird stodgy books, separate vocabulary) and how many of the leaders are these unimpressive ordinary guys. I remember back when I was really drawn to it, watching some Embassy Media stuff, and the speakers were so b-o-r-I-n-g.

It seems some adult women might be drawn to the cult for its set roles and expectations and the idealized family life and the order it promises out of chaos. I wonder if for the men, it promises really super ordinary guys rockstar status (I remember feeling that with Vision Forum). But I wonder. Who are the real powers at IBLP and what have they done to cover up Gothard, Josh, and how toxic and destructive the teaching is. Do they shut their eyes to it or are they mostly vested in preserving their power? What are they talking about as the trial unfolds? Are they watching? Ignoring? Calculating whether to cut ties with the Duggars or ask for prayer? Maneuvering to keep other secrets from coming out? I still think it’s pretty wild that with all this publicity, Josh’s teen punishment/IBLP center rehab doesn’t get more media scrutiny.

 

......."special three special segments for children" huh?  what now? 

[neuroticcat]

29 minutes ago, Queen Of Hearts said:

Ugh, damn.  

I’ve heard both, I read it as the judge called them in to ask for an update, they said they would like to break, and it was sort of agreed upon. 

[feministxtian]

I am so sick of these delusional fuckers. It's not "cancel culture", it's YOU SUCK. It's not losing "free speech", it's understanding that "free speech" has nothing to do with private entities like Facebook, Insta, Twitter and the like. 

How the fuck can these people be so willingly stupid? There's no differences of opinion allowed, they all live in a fucking echo chamber. I mean, I'm not necessarily the brightest crayon in the box, and yes I am a Christian, however, I don't live in an echo chamber. I willfully and purposely interact with people who have differences of opinion with me, but it seems that the people I interact with are also able to understand the differences between the paranoid conspiracy whack jobs and people with different opinions. The folks w/the different opinions are able to articulate their arguments in a reasonably intelligent manner and can even quote people who aren't nuts. 

I fucking give up. 

[neuroticcat]

17 minutes ago, Mama Mia said:

From all their wording, and the entire family, and all their adjuncts, and even their groupies very explicitly NOT defending Josh’s innocence - I think it’s more referring to the family being blamed/cancelled for Josh and his actions. They aren’t going to come out and say he’s guilty- but as others have noted there is a really remarkable lack of being sure he’s innocent. 
 

I know we don’t discuss the horrid details here — and some people haven’t read the breakdown from court - but there are things in there that even the most obnoxious die-hard fundamentalist could not possibly explain away as being like any other sin - sexual or otherwise. 

This. I think they feel it’s unjust that *they* (I.e Jim Bob) should be punished for Josh’s failings. Especially when they have been such a pillar of righteousness in the community. 
 

Personally, I do think they know Josh did it. I think they know how bad it is, and I think they probably feel he is reaping what he sowed, or whatever wisdom principle fits. I think this lets them move on doing their thing and congratulating themselves for their right responses. Which is why it doesn’t compute and angers Jim Bob that other people can’t see and celebrate that. 
 

I *maybe* could find this reasoning consistent (Josh is an adult making adult choices) if it didn’t completely ignore their whole hearted participation in the events surrounding neglect and abuse of their daughters as well as their garbage beliefs. They still have blinders on to that.

21 minutes ago, Beermeet said:

......."special three special segments for children" huh?  what now? 

Right? I think they mean the three children’s break out sessions as indicated on the flier, but it’s that sort of weird cultish tweaking of words that is all over the place: it’s either poor education or redefining everything for insider lingo. 

[molecule]

Would the Duggar brand be able to recover if Josh is acquitted?

Even if the jury decides there is reasonable doubt about the CSAM, we've heard testimony that makes it clear that Josh's "sin in the camp" was far worse than had been presented and that Josh continued watching porn even after his sham rehab. 

Even with an acquittal, would other fundies continue to be willing to associate their ministries and camps with the Duggars? Will the adult Duggar kids change their views on their parents and follow Jill's example? 

I hope for a guilty verdict, and I also hope the Duggars' reputation is damaged with either outcome. 

 

[neuroticcat]

So Reddit posted this public Facebook post from Caleb Williams’ mom. She says she was on the witness list, which I think is interesting. Was she supposed to testify against her son? It’s also bizarre that she’s defending the people who maybe were trying to scapegoat her son? Also noteworthy that she’s championing Michelle. 

Spoiler

 

 

 

5 minutes ago, molecule said:

Would the Duggar brand be able to recover if Josh is acquitted?

Even if the jury decides there is reasonable doubt about the CSAM, we've heard testimony that makes it clear that Josh's "sin in the camp" was far worse than had been presented and that Josh continued watching porn even after his sham rehab. 

Even with an acquittal, would other fundies continue to be willing to associate their ministries and camps with the Duggars? Will the adult Duggar kids change their views on their parents and follow Jill's example? 

I hope for a guilty verdict, and I also hope the Duggars' reputation is damaged with either outcome. 

 

 

I hope so, too, but I think many of them knew enough early on to be scared away if they were going to be. It’s also complicated because some of them have relationships with each other, so it’s not like you’re going to bail on your close friends even in this moment (see Dawn Williams above). Also, people who are all in on the same trash beliefs will circle the wagons rather than interrogate IBlP’s way.

My biggest hope is it’s public enough people stay far away from IBLP to begin with and it lets the kids and young people know they can get out.

Edited December 9, 2021 by neuroticcat
Not behind spoiler

[Bad Wolf]

Good night. I'm hoping for a verdict tomorrow. GUILTY, GUILTY, GUILTY.

[AussieKrissy]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

She’s 16, and single.

*that we know of....

24 minutes ago, neuroticcat said:

So Reddit posted this public Facebook post from Caleb Williams’ mom. She says she was on the witness list, which I think is interesting. Was she supposed to testify against her son? It’s also bizarre that she’s defending the people who maybe were trying to scapegoat her son? Also noteworthy that she’s championing Michelle. 

  Hide contents

 

 

 

I hope so, too, but I think many of them knew enough early on to be scared away if they were going to be. It’s also complicated because some of them have relationships with each other, so it’s not like you’re going to bail on your close friends even in this moment (see Dawn Williams above). Also, people who are all in on the same trash beliefs will circle the wagons rather than interrogate IBlP’s way.

My biggest hope is it’s public enough people stay far away from IBLP to begin with and it lets the kids and young people know they can get out.

From one mother of a predator to another......

[AussieKrissy]

On the last thread it was talked about the "bodyguard" that flew a child to a friend in texas rather than risk an er visit and a following cps visit. 

I swear something like this has been brought up before on here. I really think it has been discussed before on here. Did it sound familiar to anyone else?

We all know there has to be more skeletons in that TTH what the hell will we further find out and never find out. 

go rogue someone do a tell all hold nothing back.

[Chickenbutt]

@AussieKrissyI'm glad I'm not the only one. I thought so too. I even went back and read the Duggar Aviation threads about that time frame. I thought it was there, but maybe not. You (and I) are not crazy. 

[EmCatlyn]

1 hour ago, neuroticcat said:

I’ve heard both, I read it as the judge called them in to ask for an update, they said they would like to break, and it was sort of agreed upon. 

Could be the judge asked, “Do you think you will be done with deliberations before 6 pm?”  And they said, “No way, and anyway we want a dinner break,” so the judge told them to go home and come back tomorrow. 

Edited December 9, 2021 by EmCatlyn
Done was spelt dome.

[3KidsAndStopped]

Not slept all that well. I think perhaps I was being too optimistic hoping for a verdict yesterday and to be fair the closing arguments dragged on a bit. I suppose we also have to think the jury have 2 separate charges to consider and both are serious. We also cannot discount that it only takes one juror to have given credence to the hit and run hacker theory. Perhaps there was more to the defence argument than reported that could create reasonable doubt. I hope there are people on the jury that understand all the techy bits better than I do because I will be honest I don't really understand a lot of it.

I don't know. I keep holding on to the strength of the prosecution case, the federal conviction rate and the admissions Josh has made himself. I feel like if he IS guilty-and surely he must be given the evidence-and somehow is found innocent, he will think he is untouchable.

Hoping for an outcome today either way. 

[karenb4729]

9 minutes ago, 3KidsAndStopped said:

I don't know. I keep holding on to the strength of the prosecution case, the federal conviction rate and the admissions Josh has made himself. I feel like if he IS guilty-and surely he must be given the evidence-and somehow is found innocent, he will think he is untouchable.

I don't think there is a chance in hell that he will be found innocent/not guilty, that would take all 12 jurors finding him not guilty.  I think it will either be guilty, or a hung jury where we will have to do this trial thing all over again.  

[Dandruff]

10 minutes ago, 3KidsAndStopped said:

I suppose we also have to think the jury have 2 separate charges to consider and both are serious.

I'm thinking that could be the main reason.  They need to make sure that separate criteria are met, they don't want to rush, and may have been tired and/or wanting something to eat or drink.  There's also media coverage so perhaps a little extra pressure to not miss anything or make a mistake.

[3KidsAndStopped]

I found an article online source in spoiler, I will quote it directly:

“A source tells me tonight that the Duggars believe that Josh has lost his case. The source said that the mood is ‘somber’ at the Duggar home. Anna & Josh are said to be preparing for Josh’s last night with his kids. Jim Bob is already telling people that the DOJ forensic expert James Fottrell lied on the stand. He is allegedly telling people that Fottrell had to be recalled to the stand to clear up ‘his lies.'”

Also speculates there is a rift between JB Joy and Austin, and that Austin believes Josh is guilty. I have no idea how good the source is though.

Spoiler

https://www.tvshowsace.com/2021/12/08/josh-duggar-trial-sources-reveal-whats-happening-home-verdict/

 

[neuroticcat]

5 minutes ago, 3KidsAndStopped said:

I found an article online source in spoiler, I will quote it directly:

“A source tells me tonight that the Duggars believe that Josh has lost his case. The source said that the mood is ‘somber’ at the Duggar home. Anna & Josh are said to be preparing for Josh’s last night with his kids. Jim Bob is already telling people that the DOJ forensic expert James Fottrell lied on the stand. He is allegedly telling people that Fottrell had to be recalled to the stand to clear up ‘his lies.'”

Also speculates there is a rift between JB Joy and Austin, and that Austin believes Josh is guilty. I have no idea how good the source is though.

  Hide contents

https://www.tvshowsace.com/2021/12/08/josh-duggar-trial-sources-reveal-whats-happening-home-verdict/

 

Ugh, the bit about the kids is gut punch. I mean, objectively, it is so much better if he is separated from him, but they are so little, and he is their dad. This must be so confusing for the littlest ones.

[3KidsAndStopped]

1 minute ago, neuroticcat said:

Ugh, the bit about the kids is gut punch. I mean, objectively, it is so much better if he is separated from him, but they are so little, and he is their dad. This must be so confusing for the littlest ones.

Its just so complicated and exhausting isn't it? I am still reeling from the choice of name for the youngest child. Part of me is saying, what if he really IS innocent, (well of this at least) but I think it is anxiety projecting now. The other, more rational side of me is saying the evidence he is guilty was very very strong.

 

[Chocolate Lover]

18 minutes ago, 3KidsAndStopped said:

I found an article online source in spoiler, I will Jim Bob is already telling people that the DOJ forensic expert James Fottrell lied on the stand. 

  Reveal hidden contents

https://www.tvshowsace.com/2021/12/08/josh-duggar-trial-sources-reveal-whats-happening-home-verdict/

 

Coming from Mr "I can't remember", that's rich! 

[Smee]

6 hours ago, AuntCloud said:

Hopefully by tomorrow we can temporarily change the name of our honourable hangout place from FreeJinger to JailJosh. I’ll raise a glass of 19 Crimes and Counting for that.

I read this as 19 Crimes and Courting 

[BensAllergies]

The minute entry is up from yesterday. This is how the court reporter summarized the conclusion of court for the day:

4:57 pm Jury Panel returned to courtroom and informed Court they want to resume deliberations in the morning

Recess Instruction read to the Jury

Jury Released until 8:30 am tomorrow

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/59871253/113/united-states-v-duggar/

[Smee]

1 hour ago, 3KidsAndStopped said:

I found an article online source in spoiler, I will quote it directly:

“A source tells me tonight that the Duggars believe that Josh has lost his case. The source said that the mood is ‘somber’ at the Duggar home. Anna & Josh are said to be preparing for Josh’s last night with his kids. Jim Bob is already telling people that the DOJ forensic expert James Fottrell lied on the stand. He is allegedly telling people that Fottrell had to be recalled to the stand to clear up ‘his lies.'”

Also speculates there is a rift between JB Joy and Austin, and that Austin believes Josh is guilty. I have no idea how good the source is though.

  Hide contents

https://www.tvshowsace.com/2021/12/08/josh-duggar-trial-sources-reveal-whats-happening-home-verdict/

 

When “a source” told WOACB something, the source was probably reddit rumours. She must be thrilled to be quoted though.

They’re going to come back at 2am my time aren’t they? (It’s 9:30pm now). I keep spending every morning reading diligently through every page of these threads so I can experience it all in order, even if not in real time. I eat breakfast with my eyes glued to my phone. I had been hoping tomorrow might be different!

I released a short story collection last month and there’s one story about sisters who grew up fundie leaving the cult. I know it’s narcissistic to quote myself, but I keep thinking about one line I put in that story, “God is kinder now”. I hope Josh’s victims can find their way to a kinder God, one who truly hates Josh’s sins, desires justice, and loves those little girls who did NOTHING to deserve what happened to them. I need God to be kind. I need him to show mercy to the victims and survivors, because if Josh gets away with it after THAT evidence and THAT defence, I will lose my faith in humanity and probably religion too.

[meee]

2 hours ago, 3KidsAndStopped said:

I found an article online source in spoiler, I will quote it directly:

“A source tells me tonight that the Duggars believe that Josh has lost his case. The source said that the mood is ‘somber’ at the Duggar home. Anna & Josh are said to be preparing for Josh’s last night with his kids. Jim Bob is already telling people that the DOJ forensic expert James Fottrell lied on the stand. He is allegedly telling people that Fottrell had to be recalled to the stand to clear up ‘his lies.'”

Also speculates there is a rift between JB Joy and Austin, and that Austin believes Josh is guilty. I have no idea how good the source is though.

  Reveal hidden contents

https://www.tvshowsace.com/2021/12/08/josh-duggar-trial-sources-reveal-whats-happening-home-verdict/

 

I am confused that they prepared only now for Josh’s last night at home, when the jury could have returned a verdict yesterday already. (Also, does that mean they expect him to go straight to jail to await sentencing?) Also, I find it interesting that they are somber and expect the “worst”, while we over here are also agonizing over the possibility of the actual worst.