"M" Is for Mama 12: Birth Control Should Have Been Your BFF

[SassyPants]

When you know better, you should do better. Abbie and Shaun both know better, but refuse to take the steps to do better. They are the worst of the worst.

[smittykins]

I hate when fundies talk about “training” children.  It sounds like you’re housebreaking a dog.

[neuroticcat]

7 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Of course Shiloh is the only one she has blanket trained. I’ve said this on other threads but I bet if you asked all fundies with huge families, most of them didn’t blanket train the older ones. They were able to give their older ones the attention they needed so they didn’t have to blanket train. I think once you get to the point that you feel you need to blanket train, you should be done having kids. that’s your big ass clue that you have too many to care for properly. 

Yes! It would be interesting to chart out how many of the horrible parenting practices are pragmatic in nature…blanket training, sister-moms, buddy system, sibling time, free babysitting, olders homeschooling the youngers - I think a lot of the fundie draw to self discipline and instant obedience in kids is that it is impossible to parent large numbers well. I imagine they don’t even realize it because the kids come so quickly. I remember reading some study saying that seven kids is when the benefits of large families peaks. After that, increased numbers of siblings results in loss of well being. 

It’s also sad to me when only one or two need this special focused training - like they aren’t naturally compliant enough and need it trained out. 😣

[So-Virgin-It-Hurts]

2 hours ago, smittykins said:

I hate when fundies talk about “training” children.  It sounds like you’re housebreaking a dog.

I don't even use the term "housebreaking" for a dog. I say house training. I'm not breaking anyone's will, I'm teaching.

Abbey definitely is out to break the child's willful and sinful nature (puke).

8 minutes ago, neuroticcat said:

I remember reading some study saying that seven kids is when the benefits of large families peaks. After that, increased numbers of siblings results in loss of well being. 

I recall ZsuZsu Anderson writing a couple of year ago that she was now in her "Queen Years" because there were enough older kids to take over much of the work (bitch).

I'm really into the parentheses enclosed subtexts today ala Erika Shrupe (smile).

Edited December 19, 2021 by So-Virgin-It-Hurts

[neuroticcat]

She tried to walk it back. I’m heartened that she got negative response from her followers, even if I the “respectful dialog” here is pretty sickly sweet.

Trust a fundie to want to “rebrand” blanket training. Honey, if you have to explain that it’s possible to use your preferred parenting practices without it leading to abuse, you have lost the plot. Also, any one else doubt she didn’t know it ever was associated with abuse? 🙄

It always cracks me up a bit when Quiverfull families try to distance from the Duggars - like earlier when she says she’s never watched the show. Feels a bit competitive like she wants people to know that they and they alone had the godly idea for Quiverfull and any large family management ideas are completely and one hundred percent original. 

 

Edited December 19, 2021 by neuroticcat

[JermajestyDuggar]

1 minute ago, neuroticcat said:

Yes! It would be interesting to chart out how many of the horrible parenting practices are pragmatic in nature…blanket training, sister-moms, buddy system, sibling time, free babysitting, olders homeschooling the youngers - I think a lot of the fundie draw to self discipline and instant obedience in kids is that it is impossible to parent large numbers well. I imagine they don’t even realize it because the kids come so quickly. I remember reading some study saying that seven kids is when the benefits of large families peaks. After that, increased numbers of siblings results in loss of well being. 

You can see a pattern with some of the families. Michelle had her break down at 7 kids. I’m betting around that time is when the blanket training started and the Buddy system started. Zoo Anderson starting completely phoning it in after she had #7. Part of that was losing his twin. But I think she was also very overwhelmed since she had 3 boys first and it was hard to make them “brother dads” because her husband is so psycho about gender roles. Braggie has had too many past her limit for awhile now. 

[neuroticcat]

6 minutes ago, So-Virgin-It-Hurts said:

I don't even use the term "housebreaking" for a dog. I say house training. I'm not breaking anyone's will, I'm teaching.

Abbey definitely is out to break the child's willful and sinful nature (puke).

I recall ZsuZsu Anderson writing a couple of year ago that she was now in her "Queen Years" because there were enough older kids to take over much of the work (bitch).

I'm really into the parentheses enclosed subtexts today ala Erika Shrupe (smile).

Queen years is 🤮 and has serious fairy tale evil stepmother vibes. I wonder if they ever have a break in the echo chamber and wonder…am I a horrible person and a narcissistic mother? Or does it hit them out of the blue later on when children cut ties? That must be crazy cognitive dissonance to think you’re a queen sacrificing godly parent who has done everything right and then have your kids cut you out.

[JermajestyDuggar]

11 minutes ago, So-Virgin-It-Hurts said:

I recall ZsuZsu Anderson writing a couple of year ago that she was now in her "Queen Years" because there were enough older kids to take over much of the work (bitch).

I bet she isn’t feeling like a Queen these days. She’s in her 40s with the most physically difficult pregnancy yet. One of her boys seems to have cut contact. PP keeps cutting ties with pastors and kicking out parishioners. He’s being banned from YouTube. Neither of her adult sons are married. She’s lucky the girls are now old enough to take over household duties while this pregnancy is kicking her ass. 

Edited December 19, 2021 by JermajestyDuggar

[neuroticcat]

2 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

You can see a pattern with some of the families. Michelle had her break down at 7 kids. I’m betting around that time is when the blanket training started and the Buddy system started. Zoo Anderson starting completely phoning it in after she had #7. Part of that was losing his twin. But I think she was also very overwhelmed since she had 3 boys first and it was hard to make them “brother dads” because her husband is so psycho about gender roles. Braggie has had too many past her limit for awhile now. 

That is insightful. Though I’m kind of creeping myself out. Is it worse to have distracted and harried mother blanket training so she doesn’t lose her shit or have focused and koolaid indoctrinated young mother of one or two doing it because it’s the “right” way to enforce the rod. I just want these mothers to open their eyes. It’s not the Duggars or M is for Mama or Gothard who are responsible for your children. It’s YOU! And YOU are the one treating them worse than animals. 💔🤬 Those poor babies. 

[SuperNova]

2 hours ago, smittykins said:

I hate when fundies talk about “training” children.  It sounds like you’re housebreaking a dog.

Hate is a strong word that I don't often use but I wholeheartedly agree here. The rest of us non-shitty parents raise children. My child was not a little animal and contrary to Abbie's beliefs, they are in fact little humans.

I will never understand the value of degrading a child. Children need respect and understanding towards their little selves. They don't know yet how things work. They can learn the concept of staying on the blanket but there's no way to know how Shiloh will internalize this singling out behavior. Abbie may "win" in the short term with blanket training but the resentment that Shiloh will foster into adulthood will be deserved.

The boot camp thing sets me off, too. Abbie's version of boot camp just means that she has to take time away from herself to focus on a single child. It doesn't take a genius to read the annoyance that she's displaying at having to actually parent. I don't disagree that children Shiloh's age should have a measure of self control but it should be age appropriate and situational. Abbie ignored Shiloh. Abbie laughed when Shiloh would love tackle his brothers. Now she wants to punish behaviors that she herself reinforced. Abbie needs to be blanket trained because she hasn't learned to play nice yet. What an unkind person wrapped up in an Anthro bow. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

Just now, neuroticcat said:

That is insightful. Though I’m kind of creeping myself out. Is it worse to have distracted and harried mother blanket training so she doesn’t lose her shit or have focused and koolaid indoctrinated young mother of one or two doing it because it’s the “right” way to enforce the rod. I just want these mothers to open their eyes. It’s not the Duggars or M is for Mama or Gothard who are responsible for your children. It’s YOU! And YOU are the one treating them worse than animals. 💔🤬 Those poor babies. 

I guess you can compare them to families like the Clarks. Those three kids have never been neglected, gone hungry, and probably had a decent education. But those parents still have an extremely strong hold on those three. I would be interested to see if they decide to leave Fundieland. But for now, their parents still seem to have control. 

[neuroticcat]

3 minutes ago, SuperNova said:

Hate is a strong word that I don't often use but I wholeheartedly agree here. The rest of us non-shitty parents raise children. My child was not a little animal and contrary to Abbie's beliefs, they are in fact little humans.

I will never understand the value of degrading a child. Children need respect and understanding towards their little selves. They don't know yet how things work. They can learn the concept of staying on the blanket but there's no way to know how Shiloh will internalize this singling out behavior. Abbie may "win" in the short term with blanket training but the resentment that Shiloh will foster into adulthood will be deserved.

The boot camp thing sets me off, too. Abbie's version of boot camp just means that she has to take time away from herself to focus on a single child. It doesn't take a genius to read the annoyance that she's displaying at having to actually parent. I don't disagree that children Shiloh's age should have a measure of self control but it should be age appropriate and situational. Abbie ignored Shiloh. Abbie laughed when Shiloh would love tackle his brothers. Now she wants to punish behaviors that she herself reinforced. Abbie needs to be blanket trained because she hasn't learned to play nice yet. What an unkind person wrapped up in an Anthro bow. 

Yes! Thank you. Degrading is the right word for it, and it is despicable. 
 

And the initial post had a dig at “child led” parenting. Why a certain subset of Christian parents seems to take great pride in spanking or training or discipline I’ll never understand. I think any idea of child led or gentle parenting threatens to bring down the whole house of cards, because it admits that children are individuals worth dignity. 

[neuroticcat]

21 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I guess you can compare them to families like the Clarks. Those three kids have never been neglected, gone hungry, and probably had a decent education. But those parents still have an extremely strong hold on those three. I would be interested to see if they decide to leave Fundieland. But for now, their parents still seem to have control. 

What search terms would I use to find Clarks? They are not individual family list and I am getting lots of different search hits. 

Edited December 19, 2021 by neuroticcat

[JermajestyDuggar]

8 minutes ago, neuroticcat said:

What search terms would I use to find Clarks? They are not individual family list and I am getting lots of different search hits. 

Oh they are just the family Katie Bates recently married into. They have a church and Bible college in the family. Plus they sing and make albums like a lot of other fundie families. Katie had a no touch courtship with Travis Clark. His two other siblings had no touch courtships as well. All three Clark children got married this year. I’m sure that was pushed by the parents. 

[feministxtian]

1 hour ago, So-Virgin-It-Hurts said:

I don't even use the term "housebreaking" for a dog. I say house training. I'm not breaking anyone's will, I'm teaching.

Nope. She was being house trained to not go potty inside. Now, I'm working on her behaving herself and having better house manners. I have to say the felines are helping me, they happily smack the dog when she disturbs them. She now knows that the couch is off limits because it belongs to mommy and the cats. She's even learning not to get underfoot when mommy is cleaning. 

Now, it's turning out that itty-bitty will not accept boundaries at this time. If a gate is left open, she'll go right through it and find something to "play" with or go upstairs unescorted. Her mommy tried a form of "blanket training" earlier, marking off a space and using one of those things with the panels to keep her "out of trouble". It worked great until she learned to stand. Climbing over didn't take her long to learn. But, I know her spirit will never be broken. Not so itty bitty is the same...and that kid is spirited!! 

PS...had a blast at not so itty-bitty's Mongolian School party. Lots of pictures, lots of video. Grandma is her hero for finding her ballet slippers. Lord, I adore those kids (in case you can't tell). I get to spend serious time w/my grandson next week too. He's been messaging me like crazy, literally counting down the days and minutes until the big family gathering next Saturday. 

[NotQuiteMotY]

20 hours ago, neuroticcat said:

She tried to walk it back. I’m heartened that she got negative response from her followers, even if I the “respectful dialog” here is pretty sickly sweet.

Trust a fundie to want to “rebrand” blanket training. Honey, if you have to explain that it’s possible to use your preferred parenting practices without it leading to abuse, you have lost the plot. Also, any one else doubt she didn’t know it ever was associated with abuse? 🙄

It always cracks me up a bit when Quiverfull families try to distance from the Duggars - like earlier when she says she’s never watched the show. Feels a bit competitive like she wants people to know that they and they alone had the godly idea for Quiverfull and any large family management ideas are completely and one hundred percent original. 

 

I think what sticks out here to me is the "kids can move within their boundaries instead of being stuck in one seat." Isn't that the point of, ya know, baby gates and play yards? "This is safe to move and play in, but right now you can't be outside of it because of [reason]." And honestly, I've taken a wriggly toddler to a church service with no child care without problems. We take along a couple of toys/coloring books and the only rules are that he can't be loud and he has to stay between us, whether that's sitting on the bench, sitting on us, standing, whatever. Kids have a hard time sitting still unless they have something to engage them or can shift occasionally, just like most adults.

 

20 hours ago, SuperNova said:

Abbie laughed when Shiloh would love tackle his brothers. Now she wants to punish behaviors that she herself reinforced.

This, this right here. If you don't want the child doing something, stop them when they do it (and save the laugh for when they can't see you). We're having issues with Younger tackling Elder for just that reason: sometimes Elder encourages it and sometimes he doesn't, and Younger's still working on picking up social cues, so there's a lot of frustration on both kids' parts (and ours, when we have to deal with yelling and tears.)

[danvillebelle]

No one can make me roll my eyes harder than this twatwaffle.  Braggie, if you look for negativity everywhere you go, you're generally going to find it.  

"Last week, I was hustling 5 little boys into the gym so I could teach a class, hauling the twinbies in their car seats, one on each arm, and herding Shiloh with my knees (he’s a master of the “wander and stare”, which is fine, except for when we’re on a deadline ).

As we trundled past a gym regular slaving away on the Stair Master, he said, “Every time I see you, I’m inspired. You come in here with all your little kids, and I don’t have near that many.” I smiled and started to assure him that any number of kids can be a challenge, but he continued: “So, every time I take my kids somewhere, I think of you and remember that it could be so much worse.”

(If you just heard the sound of a record scratching at that last bit, that’s exactly what happened in my head too).

I was already most of the way past him and in a terrific hurry, but if I had had time to respond, I might have pointed out that having more or fewer kids does not inherently make your life better or worse. 1 child is a blessing. So are 5 and 10 and 3 and 12. How hard they are (or not) doesn’t change that fact. Because hard is not the same thing as bad.

I know I beat this drum a fair bit, but I genuinely believe, in a culture with a truly mediocre (at best) attitude towards children—one which treats them as a hindrance and a bother and, in some cases, a downright curse, one of the most revolutionary things we can do is declare that we are FOR our children."

Do tell.  How are you FOR your children when you post their pictures and embarrassing details on IG for the entire world to see from babyhood on, giving them NO say in the matter whatsoever and compromising their privacy?  Riddle me that.

BEC: And the straightened hair...nope.  It looks like hanging dirty ropes. And the hat is just trying TOO hard.

 

Edited December 20, 2021 by danvillebelle

[TuringMachine]

15 minutes ago, danvillebelle said:

(he’s a master of the “wander and stare”, which is fine, except for when we’re on a deadline ).

 

I like how she still feels the urge to get a dig in for Shiloh in her children are a blessing ramble.

[JermajestyDuggar]

1 hour ago, danvillebelle said:

No one can make me roll my eyes harder than this twatwaffle.  Braggie, if you look for negativity everywhere you go, you're generally going to find it.  

"Last week, I was hustling 5 little boys into the gym so I could teach a class, hauling the twinbies in their car seats, one on each arm, and herding Shiloh with my knees (he’s a master of the “wander and stare”, which is fine, except for when we’re on a deadline ).

As we trundled past a gym regular slaving away on the Stair Master, he said, “Every time I see you, I’m inspired. You come in here with all your little kids, and I don’t have near that many.” I smiled and started to assure him that any number of kids can be a challenge, but he continued: “So, every time I take my kids somewhere, I think of you and remember that it could be so much worse.”

(If you just heard the sound of a record scratching at that last bit, that’s exactly what happened in my head too).

I was already most of the way past him and in a terrific hurry, but if I had had time to respond, I might have pointed out that having more or fewer kids does not inherently make your life better or worse. 1 child is a blessing. So are 5 and 10 and 3 and 12. How hard they are (or not) doesn’t change that fact. Because hard is not the same thing as bad.

I know I beat this drum a fair bit, but I genuinely believe, in a culture with a truly mediocre (at best) attitude towards children—one which treats them as a hindrance and a bother and, in some cases, a downright curse, one of the most revolutionary things we can do is declare that we are FOR our children."

Do tell.  How are you FOR your children when you post their pictures and embarrassing details on IG for the entire world to see from babyhood on, giving them NO say in the matter whatsoever and compromising their privacy?  Riddle me that.

BEC: And the straightened hair...nope.  It looks like hanging dirty ropes. And the hat is just trying TOO hard.

 

She always sounds like she’s trying to convince herself of this crap she spews. She’s miserable because she has 10 kids but tries so hard to convince herself and everyone else that’s not true. 

Edited December 20, 2021 by JermajestyDuggar

[feministxtian]

26 minutes ago, danvillebelle said:

"Last week, I was hustling 5 little boys into the gym so I could teach a class, hauling the twinbies in their car seats, one on each arm, and herding Shiloh with my knees (he’s a master of the “wander and stare”, which is fine, except for when we’re on a deadline ).

Next time, leave earlier so you won't be rushed and have time for your "wander and stare" kid. I had one of those. He'd be with me, looking around then all of a sudden "Shiny!!" and off he'd go. I'd send a bigger kid after him so I could finish whatever it was. I took 5 kids, including a newborn, grocery shopping on the day I got out of the hospital after having said newborn (my X was an asshole). It honestly wasn't a big deal because I'd already taught the older kids (2 bio and 2 steps and then new baby) that they had to walk with me and keep one hand on the cart (to keep them from grabbing stuff). I think what I did was tell them what I expected and when they let go, I'd stop dead and bring the child back and put their hand on the cart. I may have talked in a stern tone of voice (#1 son was the greatest one to wander as a toddler/preschooler), but I never raised my voice outside the house. They could gauge how pissed I was by my tone of voice. Funny thing is that #1 son has now passed that knowledge to not so itty bitty. She'll now do anything to avoid having Grandma growl at her. 

[SassyPants]

Regarding the gym story…didn’t she post a very similar story about a lady and a grocery store?

[Red Hair, Black Dress]

Yes I believe she did.

Isn't it  Ah. Maaaazing how all unrelated these people have the same negative thoughts about Braggie and her brood.

[SuperNova]

2 hours ago, danvillebelle said:

“Every time I see you, I’m inspired. You come in here with all your little kids, and I don’t have near that many.” I smiled and started to assure him that any number of kids can be a challenge, but he continued: “So, every time I take my kids somewhere, I think of you and remember that it could be so much worse.”

This man regularly sees Abbie in person. He doesn't see her on Instagram, curated, and with a filter. He's probably never had to listen to or read one of her long winded, self absorbed diatribes meant to convince herself and everyone that listens that things are great. He sees her just as she is, frazzled and struggling with more kids than she can handle. 

2 hours ago, danvillebelle said:

...was already most of the way past him and in a terrific hurry...

There you go. Point proven.

2 hours ago, danvillebelle said:

I know I beat this drum a fair bit, but I genuinely believe, in a culture with a truly mediocre (at best) attitude towards children—one which treats them as a hindrance and a bother and, in some cases, a downright curse, one of the most revolutionary things we can do is declare that we are FOR our children.

Abbie can beat her drum all she wants. Nothing she says will change the fact that blanket training a squiggly kid is MEDIOCRE at best and child abuse at worst. It's lazy and uninspired but if she's hitting him as well it's flat out cruelty. When you force a child to sit on a blanket you are treating them as a hindrance, a bother, and a downright curse. There's nothing revolutionary about it and it's not FOR Shiloh, it's for Abbie's convenience.

[theotherelise]

If Abbie has a whole chapter in her book about boundary setting or blanket training or whatever, you'd THINK she would have done some research about the term and make clear what type of boundary setting is abuse. She says another family gave her the idea, but of course she knows how to do it perfectly in the best way and no one should jump to any conclusion that she hits her wretched, sinful children.

I hate when people write memoirs pretending to be advice books. You cannot legitimately write a book of parenting advise without reading other parenting books or research or whatever to make your case about why something works or doesn't work. What if she'd taken advice from someone about sleep training and then tweaked it slightly but never did the due diligence to find out that the advice she'd received from another rad mama was actually just babywise?

This is so much like Rachel Hollis. Rachel, you can tell your story, but stop trying to universalize your narrow experience into advice that every person needs. Abbie, stop acting like you invented every good parenting idea and all the world just hates their children because hard is bad.

Also, yes, the innumerable times she has told a variation of this same story makes it ring even more hollow. It's like trump and his "sir, sir" stories. sure jan

[JermajestyDuggar]

Braggie sounds so much like Zoo right now. Actually she often sounds like Zoo. Because Zoo acts like everyone is hateful towards her large family when she’s in public. But really, people probably notice the scowl on both Braggie and Zoo’s face and see how unhappy they are. Zoo and Braggie don’t like to be reminded by complete strangers that having this many kids makes them unhappy.