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Remnant Fellowship 22: The Great & Powerful Oz-Lizabeth


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On 11/28/2021 at 3:52 PM, MamaJunebug said:

Nnnot quite sure where this came from (too much leftover pumpkin pie?), but last night I was thinking about Amy Winehouse’s music and sad life and immense legacy … and I thought about her hair beehive and Gwen’s bumpit pouf. 
 

Nothing past that, except … what might they have had in common to choose to style themselves in those similar ways?  Huh. The things that cross my mind. 

Amy Winehouse had an eating disorder and an addiction. Gwen was addicted to an eating disorder. 🤷🏽‍♀️ 
*not meant to mock Amy Winehouse in any way. I thought she was so talented and am a fan of her work. 

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16 hours ago, Sasha_The_Producer said:

Please elaborate do you mean she had a "Golden Hour" ie: a 23 hour fast with 1 all you can eat hour?

If it was similar to other peoples experiences, it meant that she sent her accountability partner what she ate/how she did with temptation/etc every hour she was awake

Edited by RFsurvivor
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5 hours ago, RFsurvivor said:

If it was similar to other peoples experiences, it meant that she sent her accountability partner what she ate/how she did with temptation/etc every hour she was awake

That is rough!  It would make me want to eat more. I guess you pray through it?

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8 hours ago, RFsurvivor said:

If it was similar to other peoples experiences, it meant that she sent her accountability partner what she ate/how she did with temptation/etc every hour she was awake

That’s the way that I understood it.

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8 hours ago, RFsurvivor said:

If it was similar to other peoples experiences, it meant that she sent her accountability partner what she ate/how she did with temptation/etc every hour she was awake

thank you and all the other replies 

The journalist that sat with DR. Oz seemed to be promoting the church at the end saying its still going strong at Elizabeth's helm what a laugh.

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8 hours ago, RFIntrigued said:

Amy Winehouse had an eating disorder and an addiction. Gwen was addicted to an eating disorder. 🤷🏽‍♀️ 
*not meant to mock Amy Winehouse in any way. I thought she was so talented and am a fan of her work. 

Thank you, I hadn’t known Mr. Winehouse had an ED. The drug and alcohol problems, knew about them.  The poufed hair: I’m guessing with Ms. Shamblin Lara it was to look  larger in an acceptable way - she could not gain weight and keep her authority (in her mind), perhaps.  So she added 6 or 7 inches with platform heeled shoes and another 8 or 9 with hair. 
 

With Ms. Amy, I feel like it was also to look larger, and therefore less vulnerable.  The more bad-ass artist part of it, along with the cats eye makeup & tattoos, to reflect maybe her soul’s music.  I admire and mourn her.  I mean all this in respectful thought 

 

But yes, with the ED info … a way to look bigger, more in-control. Thank you again for the info, @RFIntrigued.  

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I just took a look at Saturday's Christmas Concert.  I have to say there are so many talented members of this church.  But it all seems a bit robotic, especially the kids. There are all so perfect.  At my church concerts, there was at least one kid crying or acting fidgety and goofy.

And then Tish Dunn spoke.  She could hardly get through her speech because she was so choked up about remembering when Gwen bought violins for the church, bla bla bla, and then she added that Elizabeth was working "around the clock" to keep things going!!  But where was Elizabeth last night?  If you can work around the clock for the church, maybe you could show up for a holiday event? Not even a phone in...

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35 minutes ago, Baxsmom said:

I just took a look at Saturday's Christmas Concert.  I have to say there are so many talented members of this church.  But it all seems a bit robotic, especially the kids. There are all so perfect.  At my church concerts, there was at least one kid crying or acting fidgety and goofy.

And then Tish Dunn spoke.  She could hardly get through her speech because she was so choked up about remembering when Gwen bought violins for the church, bla bla bla, and then she added that Elizabeth was working "around the clock" to keep things going!!  But where was Elizabeth last night?  If you can work around the clock for the church, maybe you could show up for a holiday event? Not even a phone in...

Elizabeth is probably at the beach mansion making Christmas cookies but not eating them.

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21 minutes ago, rabbitholejulie said:

Elizabeth is probably at the beach mansion making Christmas cookies but not eating them.

Is she allowed to lick the cookies (at the beach, LOL)?

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On 12/4/2021 at 11:49 AM, RFsurvivor said:

If it was similar to other peoples experiences, it meant that she sent her accountability partner what she ate/how she did with temptation/etc every hour she was awake

Yes that's how it worked 

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On 12/4/2021 at 8:21 PM, MamaJunebug said:

Thank you, I hadn’t known Mr. Winehouse had an ED. The drug and alcohol problems, knew about them.

Amy did have a serious ED.  

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On 12/4/2021 at 3:21 PM, MamaJunebug said:

The poufed hair: I’m guessing with Ms. Shamblin Lara it was to look  larger in an acceptable way - she could not gain weight and keep her authority (in her mind), perhaps.  So she added 6 or 7 inches with platform heeled shoes and another 8 or 9 with hair. 


With Ms. Amy, I feel like it was also to look larger, and therefore less vulnerable.  The more bad-ass artist part of it, along with the cats eye makeup & tattoos, to reflect maybe her soul’s music.  I admire and mourn her.  I mean all this in respectful thought 

But yes, with the ED info … a way to look bigger, more in-control. 

I agree with your theories regarding the hair being ways to feel bigger, more powerful, and more in control. 
Big hair and EDs/body dysmorphia sometimes also go together because the person either (1) feels their big hair visually balances out the body that they perceive as too large, or (2) they feel that it emphasizes their small frame which feels rewarding.

Also having a really unusual aspect to your appearance can serve to draw attention, comments, etc to that one aspect and thus away from other aspects that you don’t want people to notice or bring up to you. As someone who has always been very small myself, I notice that when I dress and groom myself in “ordinary” ways I tend to get a lot of comments on my body size, but if I wear unusual clothing or makeup people usually comment on those instead and rarely comment about my body size. When I’ve gone through periods of being underweight due to medical issues that I really didn’t want to talk to people about in everyday life, I would often style myself more in those periods as a distraction tactic.

Edited by Strawbernana
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6 hours ago, Strawbernana said:

I agree with your theories regarding the hair being ways to feel bigger, more powerful, and more in control. 
Big hair and EDs/body dysmorphia sometimes also go together because the person either (1) feels their big hair visually balances out the body that they perceive as too large, or (2) they feel that it emphasizes their small frame which feels rewarding.

Also having a really unusual aspect to your appearance can serve to draw attention, comments, etc to that one aspect and thus away from other aspects that you don’t want people to notice or bring up to you. As someone who has always been very small myself, I notice that when I dress and groom myself in “ordinary” ways I tend to get a lot of comments on my body size, but if I wear unusual clothing or makeup people usually comment on those instead and rarely comment about my body size. When I’ve gone through periods of being underweight due to medical issues that I really didn’t want to talk to people about in everyday life, I would often style myself more in those periods as a distraction tactic.

Does anyone have an explanation for the short dresses that appeared with Joe?  Was that because he was younger than her, I wonder.  Or a “second chance” (as one of their videos is called) at love and romance type thing?  The shoes had always been there, right?  But the dresses … sometimes surely must have surprised or even shocked the RF members.  
 

I am the same age as Gwen was in life and I think the whole “you’ve got to dress for your age thing” is carried a bit far… I once had a younger friend express surprise that I wore a fuchia colored t-shirt.  But I’m not a pastor and I didn’t create a church and claim prophet of God status either.  And I’ve not preached modesty to women younger than me.  
 

Anyway, it was an obvious change that meant something. I think it was about Joe and their age difference and kind of had the opposite effect of what she intended.

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7 hours ago, Strawbernana said:

Big hair and EDs/body dysmorphia sometimes also go together because the person either (1) feels their big hair visually balances out the body that they perceive as too large,

Wow, thank you!  I am a compulsive overeater and taking it ODAAT.  After a significant weight loss (medically approved) I finally went back to my pixie haircut. It really is the right style for me - and SO EASY.  
 

But I felt unbalanced, at my highest weight, without Roseann Rosannadanna* hair to “balance it out.”  So, it isn’t just me. Thank you again. 
 

*May her name always be a blessing. Miss Gilda’s as well.  ❤️ 💔

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My mom, all of my aunts, and my sibling have diagnosed EDs as well as countless friends I’ve had throughout my life, so I’ve always been really interested in those parts of the “experience” that aren’t talked about as much like hair choices. Funnily enough, I always thought I had mostly avoided disordered eating myself but reading this thread made me realize in times of high stress I unconsciously adopt the Gwen diet (small amounts of junk/craving foods when I’m physically hungry enough for it to pierce the veil of my anxiety/apathy, and tons of Diet Coke or coffee), so she has indirectly influenced me to be healthier by her negative example. I lost weight when quarantine started because I work from home so lost external cues to eat, lost the social aspects of eating, and was stressed about the world and everything. After reading this thread starting about a year ago I’ve made sure to schedule times to eat balanced meals at reasonable intervals, and I’m feeling a lot better, so thanks y’all!

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On 12/5/2021 at 7:52 PM, Baxsmom said:

I just took a look at Saturday's Christmas Concert.  I have to say there are so many talented members of this church.  But it all seems a bit robotic, especially the kids. There are all so perfect.  At my church concerts, there was at least one kid crying or acting fidgety and goofy.

And then Tish Dunn spoke.  She could hardly get through her speech because she was so choked up about remembering when Gwen bought violins for the church, bla bla bla, and then she added that Elizabeth was working "around the clock" to keep things going!!  But where was Elizabeth last night?  If you can work around the clock for the church, maybe you could show up for a holiday event? Not even a phone in...

Yea that was a lie. Elizabeth is not working around the clock to keep things going. Geeze these people are something else.

22 hours ago, CRAnn said:

Does anyone have an explanation for the short dresses that appeared with Joe?  Was that because he was younger than her, I wonder.  Or a “second chance” (as one of their videos is called) at love and romance type thing?  The shoes had always been there, right?  But the dresses … sometimes surely must have surprised or even shocked the RF members.  
 

I am the same age as Gwen was in life and I think the whole “you’ve got to dress for your age thing” is carried a bit far… I once had a younger friend express surprise that I wore a fuchia colored t-shirt.  But I’m not a pastor and I didn’t create a church and claim prophet of God status either.  And I’ve not preached modesty to women younger than me.  
 

Anyway, it was an obvious change that meant something. I think it was about Joe and their age difference and kind of had the opposite effect of what she intended.

Her hooker style suddenly developed when joe came along. Funny because she was so big on modesty with female members!

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On 12/7/2021 at 8:25 AM, CRAnn said:

Does anyone have an explanation for the short dresses that appeared with Joe?  Was that because he was younger than her, I wonder.  Or a “second chance” (as one of their videos is called) at love and romance type thing?  The shoes had always been there, right?  But the dresses … sometimes surely must have surprised or even shocked the RF members.  
 

I am the same age as Gwen was in life and I think the whole “you’ve got to dress for your age thing” is carried a bit far… I once had a younger friend express surprise that I wore a fuchia colored t-shirt.  But I’m not a pastor and I didn’t create a church and claim prophet of God status either.  And I’ve not preached modesty to women younger than me.  
 

Anyway, it was an obvious change that meant something. I think it was about Joe and their age difference and kind of had the opposite effect of what she intended.

Here's my take as a former longterm member. For the past two decades, Gwen consistently pushed the envelope with fashion. She has always had her own style (for better or for worse), and there have been many "phases." There was a pirate phase around the Legend to the Treasure series where she wore big blousy-sleeved shirts and nautical captain coats. There was the Royalty phase when she wore the sashes (which coincided with the first season of the Netflix TV show "The Crown" which was watched pretty avidly  in RF circles as an example of the "pressure that comes with being chosen by God to lead," and I have a theory that the "Gloria" entrance music that was played a lot during the Remnant Royalty phase was cribbed directly from the Crown theme song with a Michael twist). There was the Matrix phase where she liked wearing leather and sunglasses.

Now one thing that people have to understand is that RF prides itself for not being "bound by manmade rules." We all noticed of course when Gwen really upped the cleavage and miniskirts, but in the circles I was around it was considered daring and empowering. We had a pretty intense "not-like-other-churches" attitude so it seemed exciting and liberating that we had a pastor who wore so much makeup, nine inch heels, and showed off her décolletage. And of course, Gwen's miniskirts and tight-fitting formals were a longstanding tradition by the time of her marriage to Joe. Many members thought she was living a in a real-life bodice-ripper romance novel and vicariously lived for her sexy escapades with Joe.

Of course, I do remember how back in the day women were heavily judged for modesty (of course with our own RF doublespeaking panache). Girls were constantly shamed and reprimanded for wearing shorts that hit above the knee, spaghetti straps were a big no, and boys and girls were eventually banned from swimming together. Also, funnily enough,, boys were banned from wearing those sleeveless t-shirts with the really deep armholes. At the same time, we bragged about how liberated we were from the overall Evangelical culture of frumpiness.

In the end though, thinness was the ultimate accessory. Thin women could pull off any outfit with praise from the "modesty police." Gwen's personal fashion was also extremely inspiring to other RF women and it was mostly met with praise at least in circles I was around.

Edited by Roscoe
T-shirts, lol
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1 hour ago, Roscoe said:

Girls were constantly shamed and reprimanded for wearing shorts that hit above the knee, spaghetti straps were a big no

That's so strange. Because I've never seen them as being particularly modest dressers. For example, I've always been surprised at the wedding dresses worn by RF brides. Backless, strapless, it seems like anything goes. 

Compare that to other groups who emphasize modesty -- the first pic is the skimpiest Mormon wedding dress I could find, compared to a couple of pretty typical RF gowns. These two do pass the skinny test.

image.png.b429a4375c21d067d60718c0cd658b5d.png    image.png.7ee1ae51450459d8fb46de8e7fcebd0c.png  image.png.a9f572eb8f67cbd6887ca3039f2a430e.png

 

 

Edited by ManyGoats
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1 hour ago, ManyGoats said:

That's so strange. Because I've never seen them as being particularly modest dressers. For example, I've always been surprised at the wedding dresses worn by RF brides. Backless, strapless, it seems like anything goes. 

Compare that to other groups who emphasize modesty -- the first pic is the skimpiest Mormon wedding dress I could find, compared to a couple of pretty typical RF gowns. These two do pass the skinny test.

image.png.b429a4375c21d067d60718c0cd658b5d.png    image.png.7ee1ae51450459d8fb46de8e7fcebd0c.png  image.png.a9f572eb8f67cbd6887ca3039f2a430e.png

 

 

The "modesty" rules were mostly only enforced on girls who did not meet the thinness standard. If a girl had any curves she would get cracked down on way more. A lot of these rules (like shorts length) were enforced during day camp where we'd have endless talks about modesty. As with all things RF, rules constantly changed and the standards waxed and waned with trends that the inner circle found acceptable. Real "on Wednesday we wear pink" energy.

Being photogenic and attractive was always the top priority of course. Also, in many circles I ran in, girls and women were expected to wear makeup and look put together whenever you were in public as a way to "glorify God." I was told by a leader's wife that I needed to start wearing makeup when I was in middle school because my bare face looked sloppy. RF encouraged beauty above all.

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3 hours ago, Roscoe said:

The "modesty" rules were mostly only enforced on girls who did not meet the thinness standard. If a girl had any curves she would get cracked down on way more. A lot of these rules (like shorts length) were enforced during day camp where we'd have endless talks about modesty. As with all things RF, rules constantly changed and the standards waxed and waned with trends that the inner circle found acceptable.

I totally agree with this. A skinny leadership kid could get away with wearing something way more revealing but a girl with curves had to cover up more. I remember being astonished when I found out that some of my peers wore bikinis (not to day camp) when I was expected to wear a full coverage two piece (tank-kini) or a one piece. 

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I think RFs “modesty standards” were their own kind of damaging. Unlike other fundies who found particular articles of clothing immodest or evil, we found particular bodies to be fundamentally evil.

There is something deeply insidious about a young girl being told it isn’t the bikini/skinny jeans/short skirt that is bad. It is her who is bad, she isn’t good enough to wear it. The skinny “godly girls” can wear whatever they want, it is your “ugly” body full of flesh that causes lust. That’s a different kind of fucked up from the usual “eye trap” fundies. Your curvy body won’t cause men to lust, it will disgust them so cover up your shame.

I knew many girls who were objectively gorgeous (like they had the slim-thick look that Insta models would die for) who were told “no one will want to marry you until you lose weight” and that their bodies were a visible sign of sin. Any problems they had in their lives would be attributed to their larger bodies, the “sin they could not lay down.”

Thinness had a palpable privilege. Thinness gave you greater freedom and more grace. If a thin person had a setback or problem in their life, it was “testing from God” because they were already pure. If a person who hadn’t gotten all their weight off had any negative life event would be attributed to their “visible sin” and would be seen as a curse for disobedience.

“My dad got cancer and it’s my fault because I have not laid down the food,” was a phrase I once heard. Also, “God hasn’t let me conceive a baby because I gained ten pounds from hormone therapy in IVF.” And worst of all, “Your family situation is abusive? Have you tried losing weight? If you were an example of purity God would change your abuser’s heart.”

Everything related back to weight. For Gwen, I think overeating with the original sin. Everything stemmed from that. It has been a long journey for me personally not to attribute every setback in life to being punished by God for eating. I was anorexic for much of my adolescence, but I thought of it as being "in God's boundaries." Eating disorders are so prevalent in RF that we are barely conscious of them. I would do whatever it took to stay thin because the minute I had any flesh on my body was an invitation for curses from God.

It definitely messes you up.

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On 12/8/2021 at 9:20 PM, Roscoe said:

There was a pirate phase around the Legend to the Treasure series where she wore big blousy-sleeved shirts and nautical captain coats. There was the Royalty phase when she wore the sashes (which coincided with the first season of the Netflix TV show "The Crown" which was watched pretty avidly  in RF circles as an example of the "pressure that comes with being chosen by God to lead"...There was the Matrix phase where she liked wearing leather and sunglasses.

This paragraph and the couple of pages around the constantly changing modesty rules and how they were enforced for different body types for young girls seems to encapsulate how astoundingly bizarre Gwen truly was. 

And @Roscoe, this broke my heart: 

Quote

I think RFs “modesty standards” were their own kind of damaging. Unlike other fundies who found particular articles of clothing immodest or evil, we found particular bodies to be fundamentally evil.

I suspect Elizabeth is having what used to be called a nervous breakdown. The two anchors of her life, her mother and her husband, are gone and I doubt if she can find her footing and cope in the midst of grief and loss.  

She was raised with dysfunction and the RF crazy.  Her mom and dad seemed to not have a great marriage and then her mom up and dumps her dad after 40 years and marries a prop husband and E. had no choice but to accept this and pretend that all was just hunky dory, because Gwen.  

Narcissists like Gwen demand that the world revolve around them and do not raise children or anyone else to step into a leadership role when they're gone.  I would think Elizabeth would experience huge amounts of cognitive dissonance trying to assume the mantle of leadership (if it something she even wants to do), because how could she possibly step up and (metaphorically) wear those 9-inch heels?  She'd feel like an impostor. 

I suspect there are a lot of behind-the-scenes whispered conversations going on among the "Remnants" of the church leadership about the "Elizabeth problem." 

But it's not an Elizabeth problem -- RF was designed to revolve around Gwen, her crazy utterances, and an eating disordered view of the world. 

Could the "Remnants" accept an emotionally healthy person who brought true leadership and spiritual growth?   I just see this group devolving into a spiritual Cargo Cult, waiting for another Gwen. 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Howl said:

But it's not an Elizabeth problem -- RF was designed to revolve around Gwen, her crazy utterances, and an eating disordered view of the world. 

This right there...excellent insight! Gwen DID create an entire world for herself. No way can the church go on as it was...she was the gravity (the core center of the world) that held it all together. 

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We're you allowed to be fat while pregnant and if so, how long did you have to loose the baby weight? I would assume mommy makeovers were a huge deal. However that brings up the topic of plastic surgery what was the church stance on that as well?

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