Remnant Fellowship 22: The Great & Powerful Oz-Lizabeth

[JermajestyDuggar]

30 minutes ago, Queen Of Hearts said:

I jumped around some because the beginning started off slow and boring, so this is just a quick recap from memory.  If I have time later I will try to recap more.  The parts that jumped out as interesting to me are:

1.) There was some kind of psychological report done on Joe (I missed who did it but a copy was apparently provided to Stites a couple weeks before the crash).  The report basically said Joe was bad news and dangerous. Dan had a copy of the report - it is legit.  Dan speculates that the report is one reason Stites did not get on the plane as he did not trust Joe to fly.

2.) Per Joe's daughter, Joe and Gwen were majorly fighting in the weeks before the crash.  Joe was supposedly saying he couldn't stand Gwen.  

3.) Dan seems to be in Natasha's circle of trust.  I believe she gave permission for Dan to share the above.

4.) Per Dan, the night of the crash (or was it the next day?) Natasha rented a U-Haul and packed up her apartment by herself and they left town. This was presumably to get her daughter as far away from RF as quickly as possible because she did not feel safe.  She now lives in a secret place that is supposedly not known to most people but Dan knows.

5.) Stites is shady.  I don't think we needed Dan to tell us that.  He has upgraded his living situation by a little over $2 million since the crash, which is conveniently the same amount of money left behind by the family that died (whose name slips my mind) whose minor kids he took over guardianship of... the grandmother of the kids was interviewed.  Dan said Stites had to get the kids to get the $.

6.) This is complete speculation on Dan's part, but he believes that Joe killed Brandon then crashed the plane.  He said there is no way two experienced pilots would both become disoriented.  He also said the reason Joe would not respond to air traffic control is that if he had turned on the microphone they would have heard the chaos on the plane.

7.) Somewhat comical to me, but Dan and Stites had a little passive aggressive pissing match via exchanged emails.  

8.) Also comical, he got into a pissing match with Tiffany Day as they both basically drove around stalking each other.

I know Dan is not a favorite here and can understand why, but he is one of the few truly going after RF and getting under their skin. 

I can still see it. Does this link work? 

 

It’s completely believable to me that the Stites want the kids not only to keep them in the cult, but to also get the money. I feel so bad for that grandmother and her grandkids. 

I also believe Gwen and Joe were fighting. I never thought that marriage would work out long term. 

Edited May 30, 2022 by JermajestyDuggar

[Cults-r-us]

22 hours ago, Blue said:

Maybe I'm just being overly sensitive, but it almost seems disrespectful. 7 people died and you can't even host an in person memorial service where people can support each other? With a new talk about how the church has come together or whatever? I don't know - it seems almost rude to me.

I don't think they have the vision or leadership to forge ahead.  They're stuck as long as Elizabeth is stuck. The only one who came out of this tragedy with the wherewithal to free himself from RF jail and move forward with the life he wants is Michael.

[Bluebirdbluebell]

Dan Gryder seems very shady to me. 

I don't believe Joe Lara did any of it deliberately. I don't think there was enough time for him to all that. He wasn't too experienced a pilot from what I've heard. And there have been so many private plane crashes in history!

It's really sad that the family member are turning to Gryder. He's taking advantage of their desperation.

Edited May 30, 2022 by Bluebirdbluebell

[MamaJunebug]

I have no real strong opinion about Dan as a person, for or against, but as a person with way too much experience with suicidal people, I am intrigued by his notion how this all went down, no pun intended.

Questions I have

Would  Joe has been able to carry a firearm into the airport? The small regional airports like that have security?

How did Stites and Dan get the diagnosis document on Joe?

How does Dan know that Stites pulled out of the trip and offered his and his wife’s seats to the Walters?

Have any other flight experts weighed in on Dan’s declaration that the plane was sound and that there was no chance of pilot error? I know the FAA won’t have a report for quite a while, yet  

If Natasha snd Liana still laying low, is she all right with Dan sharing so much of her info AND a photo of her daughter? 

Finally, an observation, not a question:  The videos of Gwen in her last months are surprisingly candid abouI showing her with pursed lips and other facial language that some might call evidence of an insanely stressed, angry woman  That right there lends credence to the logic that unhappiness + anger = murderous actions on somebody’s part. 

Guess that’s all for now  

 

[JermajestyDuggar]

I would find the suicide theory more likely if only Gwen and Joe were on the plane. It’s pretty uncommon to commit suicide and take all these other people with you. When a man does that, it’s usually a family annihilator. Which is a man who kills his whole family and kills himself. Only Joe’s wife was on the plane. So why would he take these friends with him if he’s going to kill himself? It just doesn’t make sense. 

[formergothardite]

1 hour ago, MamaJunebug said:

Have any other flight experts weighed in on Dan’s declaration that the plane was sound and that there was no chance of pilot error? I know the FAA won’t have a report for quite a while, yet  

I’m pretty sure there were some other flight experts who weighed in. I can’t remember if it was YouTube or social media. But the general consensus is that the crash was easily explained by pilot error, especially with the weather they were having that day. I had never thought about how in dense fog and clouds pilots could get confused, panic and think they were flying up when they were really flying down. 

I hate that he has gotten his claws wrapped around Natasha and her child. The stories she shared about her father’s last weeks should not have been made public, especially through someone like Dan. Here is a child who has experienced a major life trauma and now this jerk on the internet is using her words to support his theory that her father is a cold blooded killer. She almost certainly loves her father. As she grows up, other kids are going to learn this fabricated story and probably ask her about it. The internet is forever. And now forever she will be tied, without her consent, to the a vicious, baseless claim that her father not only killed others, but killed himself.  That can really do a number on a child.
 

People like Dan going about spreading these rumors based on nothing just makes it easier for cult members to disregard other people who actually are telling the truth. If this guy, who is getting so much attention, is telling lies, then they can trust their leaders when they say other people who speak out are also lying. Dan may get under their skin, but he doesn’t really help the situation in regards to getting people still in the cult to see the truth, because he too plays fast and loose with the truth. He needs to just go away. He sure as hell didn’t make it here too long. Dan melts quickly when he leaves his protected bubble of control. 
 

[WeirdHarold]

39 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I would find the suicide theory more likely if only Gwen and Joe were on the plane. It’s pretty uncommon to commit suicide and take all these other people with you. When a man does that, it’s usually a family annihilator. Which is a man who kills his whole family and kills himself. Only Joe’s wife was on the plane. So why would he take these friends with him if he’s going to kill himself? It just doesn’t make sense. 

Unless his resentment also included RF and it's leadership.

[Bluebirdbluebell]

7 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I’m pretty sure there were some other flight experts who weighed in. I can’t remember if it was YouTube or social media. But the general consensus is that the crash was easily explained by pilot error, especially with the weather they were having that day. I had never thought about how in dense fog and clouds pilots could get confused, panic and think they were flying up when they were really flying down. 

I hate that he has gotten his claws wrapped around Natasha and her child. The stories she shared about her father’s last weeks should not have been made public, especially through someone like Dan. Here is a child who has experienced a major life trauma and now this jerk on the internet is using her words to support his theory that her father is a cold blooded killer. She almost certainly loves her father. As she grows up, other kids are going to learn this fabricated story and probably ask her about it. The internet is forever. And now forever she will be tied, without her consent, to the a vicious, baseless claim that her father not only killed others, but killed himself.  That can really do a number on a child.
 

People like Dan going about spreading these rumors based on nothing just makes it easier for cult members to disregard other people who actually are telling the truth. If this guy, who is getting so much attention, is telling lies, then they can trust their leaders when they say other people who speak out are also lying. Dan may get under their skin, but he doesn’t really help the situation in regards to getting people still in the cult to see the truth, because he too plays fast and loose with the truth. He needs to just go away. He sure as hell didn’t make it here too long. Dan melts quickly when he leaves his protected bubble of control. 
 

Not Natasha and her daughter, but Jessica Walter's mother is apparently now with Dan, too. 

A lot of married couples fight and don't kill each other. A lot of family members fight and don't always agree. People don't always die when things are going well. 

Gryder's current theory doesn't make a lot of sense, but it will help him grow his platform.

[formergothardite]

43 minutes ago, WeirdHarold said:

Unless his resentment also included RF and it's leadership.

But this entire theory is based on absolutely nothing. Why even act like it might have happened? Dan reminds me of that one fundie snarker, Crystal Ball?, who constantly makes up stuff to get attention. 

Can you imagine being a teenager and discovering bunches of strangers believing and speculating  that your dad is a killer who committed suicide all because some sexist guy with a YouTube channel decided to make up stuff for attention?

Edited May 30, 2022 by formergothardite

[throwaway9988]

Gryder’s video isnt worth wiping my ass with.

 

The psychological profile of Joe which was performed as part of the child custody battle has been completely taken out of context in order to fit Gryder’s insane conspiracy theory. Gryder’s interpretation of this report (just like his interpretation of all things RF) displays his vast ignorance of any topic that isn’t aviation, as well as displaying a complete lack of any accountability for his wild speculations. Suppressing your feelings and carefully crafting your answers to psychoanalytic questions would be something that most RF members would also be accused of if they underwent this same psych evalutation. Not only does being in RF train you to hide your true feelings about literally everything and anything, but if the RF lawyer wasn’t a complete dunce, then he probably also coached his client on how to speak and act before Joe underwent the testing. And cluster B personality? Dont make me laugh. If everyone in RF and everyone reading this forum all underwent a psych interview, tons of us would have at least one cluster B trait, and you don’t see the rest of us committing murder-suicides. These personality traits are both varied and unfortunately commonplace. Joe having one of these traits is absolutely not unexpected…and lends exactly zero credence to this laughable story that Joe murdered Brandon and then purposefully crashed the plane. Lines from the report where the doctor lists out a wide range of things associated with these traits are just that—loose correlations gathered from the population as a whole. Extrapolating that this psych report means that Joe or anyone else is more likely to commit a murder-suicide is an absolutely insane leap that only a low-class youtuber, desperate for clicks and with zero editorial oversight, would make. In fact, since reckless speculation with no consequences seems to be the name of the game here, I feel free to speculate that by making this video, Gryder has displayed a significant amount of narcissism, as well as displaying almost as much sociopathy as Jake Gyllenhaal’s character in Nightcrawler (great movie, by the way)—wow, someone had better involuntarily commit Gryder due to risk of murder-suicide because of his cluster B traits!

 

The idea of Joe significantly badmouthing Gwen to his daughter or anyone else before the crash strains credulity. No one smart would ever badmouth Gwen until well after they had fully escaped from RF. I could maybe imagine Joe secretly badmouthing Gwen to an old friend who isn’t an RF member, but I honestly can’t imagine him or anyone else being dumb enough to badmouth Gwen to Gwen’s own stepdaughter, especially when Joe absolutely knew that anything said in front of his daughter would probably 1) get back to Natasha and then be used against him in the custody battle, and 2) get back to Gwen, either via the custody battle or via someone in RF tattling. Joe isn’t a genius, but he played the game well enough to fool Gwen for a long time, so why would he suddenly make such an amateur mistake?

 

I’m sure there’s plenty of people flying around in the air right now with less flying experience than Joe, but neither Joe nor Brandon seem to have been “experienced” pilots, at least by the definitions of many other experienced pilots. And Brandon was not an experienced pilot by anyone’s definition.  It wouldnt necessarily matter if there were ten Joes and ten Brandons on that plane, they could still all be disoriented in the clouds or suffer from the same wide range of potential mechanical failures. Joe probably stopped responding to aircraft control because either mechanical problems prevented him from being able to respond, or because his plane was hurtling towards the ground and his brain was, as anyone’s would be in that same situation, panicking and trying not to die. Moreover, when you have been under RF’s brainwashing for a long time, accepting your place in God’s authority line becomes something you do without even thinking. Brandon had been fully trained that God would want him to defer to Joe, who was: the more experienced pilot (above Brandon in God’s heirarchy of who should pilot Gwen’s plane), Brandon’s step-father (above Brandon in God’s heirarchy of family organization), older than Brandon (above Brandon in God’s heirarchy of societal organization), the husband of Gwen (possibly above Brandon in God’s heirarchy of church organization). So let’s say something goes wrong with the plane mechanically: well then Brandon has even less of a chance of salvaging the situation than Joe does. Let’s say the plane is fine but the clouds are disorienting: well then Brandon has even less of a chance at staying oriented than Joe does. Let’s say something goes wrong that is easily salvageable: well then Brandon is starting out from a perspective that Joe is not only better equipped to salvage the situation than he is, but also that Joe was God’s choice to be the main pilot that day for multiple reasons. The idea that Joe planned ahead and murdered Brandon in-air so that he could purposefully crash the plane and kill everyone is just so completely insane and irresponsible that it isn’t even worth discussing. 
 

Gryder is a hack who is peddling conspiracy theories to make money via youtube clicks. And he is using the same tricks that people have been using in politics and on the internet for years: repeat the same bullshit enough times, and viewers who aren’t careful will start to confuse familiarity with plausibility. Don’t be those viewers. 

Edited May 30, 2022 by throwaway9988

[freefromthin]

I see that the link to his video no longer works.

[formergothardite]

It looks like he took it down. In this instance the friends and family of Joe would be totally justified in suing the pants off Dan Gryder. And if Natasha didn’t consent for her child to be exploited by Dan she would also be justified in suing. His obsession with fame drove Dan to cross a line into spreading lies that can get him into real trouble. You can’t go about claiming someone was a murderer based on zero facts. 
 

ETA: if I was Elizabeth I would totally sue Dan for falsely claim her stepfather murdered her husband. And I would demand he issue a public retraction admitting he made it all up. Rumors like the ones Dan started spread fast.

Edited May 31, 2022 by formergothardite

[throwaway9988]

I’m reminded of the careful and restrained comments given by the aviation guy who was interviewed in The Way Down part 4. I don’t remember seeing his name or credentials on the screen during his interview (Maybe it was hidden behind the closed captions that I had turned on? Was his name in the ending credits?), but he did come across as someone who perhaps has a professional reputation on the line, or who at the very least understands that any unnecessary speculation would make him look like a jackass if the final crash report ends up containing any critical new details (which it probably won’t, but that’s not the point). There is a pretty stark contrast between him and Gryder that speaks for itself.
 

Gryder took his selfie stick to Nashville to try to give his video a thin veneer of boots-on-the-ground investigative journalism, but what evidence did he actually uncover? He didn’t have much to show for it except a bit of thirdhand gossip and an out-of-context psych report; the rest was pretty much just conspiracy theory.  
 

Considering what happened to Trayvon Martin and Ahmaud Arbery, Gryder certainly made an interesting (privileged?) choice to confront the person who was following him through the neighborhood. Luckily for Gryder, it turned out to just be Tiffany Day. I was half-expecting the third stooge to jump out the bushes and join the drama.
 

As for the rest, I admit I was skimming heavily due to the length of the video, but I just didn’t find the parts about Patrick Stites very interesting. I remember that this forum had generally negative reactions to Stites starring in RF’s response video after the release of The Way Down. While I certainly don’t give him a pass for his apologetics, I will say that I always found Stites to be a very even-keel, competent, responsible person. The Walters apparently left guardianship of their children to the Stites fair and square. Buying a different house (presumably one with additional bedrooms, although I really don’t care enough to confirm this for myself) is a reasonable thing to do after adopting a bunch of extra kids (or at any other time for any multitude of reasons), and whether Stites used his own money/the inheritance money/a combination just doesnt seem important to me, since as the children’s guardian I assume he can use the money however he sees fit unless otherwise specified in the will. Trying to agitate Stites just doesn’t strike me as a strategy that will lead to anything juicy, but nothing ventured, nothing gained, I suppose. I guess it’s always possible that some accusations by ex-members might eventually come to light about things Stites may have said or done, à la Tedd Anger.  But by that standard, Stites really isn’t any more interesting of a target than anyone else in RF, and given how straightlaced he is, he just doesn’t strike me as a particularly strategic target. 

I would, however, be interested to get a lot more detail about the Walters/Solomon/Stites relationship triangle and legal proceedings. From my limited knowledge, it seems like it may have been very cut-and-dry legally, but it is still a tragic story capable of captivating the minds of people who have never heard about RF before. It hits many of the same notes as the story about how the cult drove a wedge between Delaney and her parents. And it would have been a very interesting story to tell in parallel with Natasha’s story, since there was a custody battle between two parties who have a complex interpersonal and interreligious history…except for that the end of this story was the opposite of Natasha’s.  So purely from a dramatic perspective, I would be interested in someone diving deeper into all of that. If Solomon was willing to speak to Gryder, was she unwilling to be interviewed for The Way Down? Was it a timing issue between any legal proceedings and the production of the final two episodes? Or did The Way Down interview her but decide not to feature her at all for some reason? Or any number of other explanations? Mr. Gryder: notice how it is possible to have a lot of unanswered questions without jumping to the conclusion that a murder-suicide occurred. 

[freefromthin]

Dan Gryder's explanation about what happened with his video.

[mhainlen]

7 hours ago, freefromthin said:

Dan Gryder's explanation about what happened with his video.

I don't really want to watch it (also, my husband is asleep next to me and I'm sure he doesn't want me watching it). Could someone who has watched it summarize what he claims? 

[Bluebirdbluebell]

35 minutes ago, mhainlen said:

I don't really want to watch it (also, my husband is asleep next to me and I'm sure he doesn't want me watching it). Could someone who has watched it summarize what he claims? 

He got in trouble with Youtube over his use of Natasha's child's name and likeness since she is a minor. It's the first Youtube struck down one of his videos. He's very indignant and defensive about this. He's still sprouting his bullshit conspiracy theories. He's trying to reach a compromise with Youtube. 

Gryder is still bad news and I would prefer people did not post his videos here. 

[formergothardite]

6 hours ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

He got in trouble with Youtube over his use of Natasha's child's name and likeness since she is a minor. It's the first Youtube struck down one of his videos. He's very indignant and defensive about this. He's still sprouting his bullshit conspiracy theories. He's trying to reach a compromise with Youtube. 

Gryder is still bad news and I would prefer people did not post his videos here. 

Thank you for describing it. I’m glad at least YouTube is protecting this poor child for being exploited by this guy. He really is bad news. Shame on Natasha if she actually gave him footage and information from her daughter. Especially if she was aware Gryder would be making claims that Joe is a killer. Her daughter should have never been associated with this.

I haven’t watched the last two Weigh Down episodes, did they end up dropping Dan from the documentary? I hope so because watching something where is is presented as any sort of expert would bother me. 

 

 

[JermajestyDuggar]

1 hour ago, formergothardite said:

Thank you for describing it. I’m glad at least YouTube is protecting this poor child for being exploited by this guy. He really is bad news. Shame on Natasha if she actually gave him footage and information from her daughter. Especially if she was aware Gryder would be making claims that Joe is a killer. Her daughter should have never been associated with this.

I haven’t watched the last two Weigh Down episodes, did they end up dropping Dan from the documentary? I hope so because watching something where is is presented as any sort of expert would bother me. 

 

 

Dan wasn’t in the documentary.

[cookingbutterchicken]

Has Camp started? Anyone know?

[RFSurvivor_2]

1 hour ago, cookingbutterchicken said:

Has Camp started? Anyone know?

It usually starts the last week(s) of May. I wouldn’t be surprised if it started already.

[JermajestyDuggar]

They normally post a lot of pics on social media and I haven’t seen any yet. 

[DietCherryCoke76]

27 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

They normally post a lot of pics on social media and I haven’t seen any yet. 

Kicked off yesterday 

[Willow]

14 hours ago, DietCherryCoke76 said:

Kicked off yesterday 

Yep, and the pix on social media have started already. All those perfect children after a perfect Pentecost (dress in white lace) weekend. 

[freefromthin]

On 6/6/2022 at 5:41 PM, DietCherryCoke76 said:

Kicked off yesterday 

I listened to Elizabeth's sermon for the kids on Sunday as well as the one for the Sabbath service. There is background music playing during the sermon that is very similar to what Gwen used to use. She mentioned something in her Sabbath sermon (which I believe was for Pentecost) about God positioning His throne over Remnant Fellowship. She seemed to imply that this happened at the time of her mother's death. She continued on with the theme of the 7 having to die so that a double portion of God's spirit could be poured out over Remnant. In the sermon for the kids she said that her mother always said that they could have Heaven on Earth if they just put God first. She went on to say that she simply wanted to prove her mother's words true and that she was glad to be able to see that she has lived to see her mother proved right. They had a lot of smiling pictures of Remnant families in the background as Elizabeth speaks. She has a very..."dreamlike" tone to her voice. It's difficult to describe, but was very surreal.  They seem very content with her pre-recorded sermons. She always gets a rousing standing ovation. The leaders always go one to say how grateful they are for her leadership and how there's nothing like it anywhere else. There's often at least one person who will get up and say that they amen everything that was said and how they are at Remnant to stay.

[MamaJunebug]

On 6/7/2022 at 6:53 PM, freefromthin said:

She has a very..."dreamlike" tone to her voice. It's difficult to describe, but was very surreal. 

Would “sing-songy” or “soothing” help describe it?  It’s what I recall most about hearing a Warren Jeffs sermon to FLDS members. Trying to be hypnotizing, I thought.