Remnant Fellowship 22: The Great & Powerful Oz-Lizabeth

[Blue]

That is definitely our big concern. Do we want Remnant to fall? Absolutely... But we do love our family and right now every aspect of their lives revolves around that group. When it crumbles it will be devastating emotionally, spiritually, and socially. Our family, like I think most others, moved out there - their only ties are to RF. 

Our fear is that they will simply seek out another similar group.

[freefromthin]

1 hour ago, Blue said:

That is definitely our big concern. Do we want Remnant to fall? Absolutely... But we do love our family and right now every aspect of their lives revolves around that group. When it crumbles it will be devastating emotionally, spiritually, and socially. Our family, like I think most others, moved out there - their only ties are to RF. 

Our fear is that they will simply seek out another similar group.

This is a very real fear. I have seen it in action. I really appreciate the love and compassion shown in this post. It's REALLY difficult to watch a loved one go through something like this. I can attest to feeling TOTALLY lost mentally, spiritually, and even socially when I left the group that I was in. Most of my relationships were in that group. the way that I perceived my surroundings and life experiences was HEAVILY influenced by that group as well. So leaving felt VERY lonely and produced a LOT of anxiety. 

To be clear, I also had a LOVING family ready to support me, but I felt like they could NOT understand what I had been through, and the truth was, they couldn't. Sure, they were members of churches, but they could miss a service and not feel an overwhelming guilt. They could visit with other congregations and even go to churches with beliefs that differed from theirs and not feel scared and overwhelmed. I could say a LOT more on this, and maybe in time I will. I need to take a break from some from some of these thoughts. 

[Baxsmom]

On 11/25/2021 at 3:28 AM, formergothardite said:

She truly did just give out advice on how to have an eating disorder. In the depths of my eating disorder I remember being so ridiculously proud that I just ate one tiny bite of everything at Thanksgiving. And that I left not feeling full. Despite Gwen’s claims, people do notice when you are at a holiday meal only eating minuscule amounts. 

Sorry to digress, but I hope everyone had a happy Thanksgiving.  I had a lovely meal with my family/friends and it was delicious.  Yes, I gained a pound but I also gained a alot of love, togetherness and happiness over a big plate of food!!!

 

[treemom]

6 hours ago, formergothardite said:

Yeah, it seems very inappropriate for this situation. Yes, leaving a cult is hard, but these people are not slaves. It is offensive to compare them to people who literally had zero abilities to escape their situations and were being raped, tortured and murdered. 
 

Michael and Elizabeth were Gwen’s first victims and probably suffered the longest under her reign. They never got to experience parents who truly loved them. They were pawns to be controlled since they were children. That doesn’t mean they aren’t responsible for the choices they made as adults, they are. But if they take the money and use it to find freedom, then great. If Elizabeth literally just dials it in because she has zero desire to lead, also great. Way better it go this rout than the church get all the money and Elizabeth come out as a strong leader. 

I hope everyone, including Gwen’s children can find peace. 

 

I don’t know what damage and danger Michael is, but I am pretty sure I would rather him waste that money on a Nashville career than have it in the hands of people like the Angers (who I know aren’t in leadership, but are just a good known example of how bad that would be)

 

[Pathologic Antagonist]

11 hours ago, formergothardite said:

Yeah, it seems very inappropriate for this situation. Yes, leaving a cult is hard, but these people are not slaves. It is offensive to compare them to people who literally had zero abilities to escape their situations and were being raped, tortured and murdered. 
 

Michael and Elizabeth were Gwen’s first victims and probably suffered the longest under her reign. They never got to experience parents who truly loved them. They were pawns to be controlled since they were children. That doesn’t mean they aren’t responsible for the choices they made as adults, they are. But if they take the money and use it to find freedom, then great. If Elizabeth literally just dials it in because she has zero desire to lead, also great. Way better it go this rout than the church get all the money and Elizabeth come out as a strong leader. 

I hope everyone, including Gwen’s children can find peace. 

 

The analogy to me is appropriate.

The slaves of Remnant are all of those thousands who readily joined an entity that turned them into beasts of burden very literally slaving away for Gwen's agenda at the cost of their personal lives.  Their "freedom" was to be free to ignore any critical thinking they might have and to let someone do their thinking for them. That is slavery as wicked as a physical one.

The ship of "Zion", the ideal society that Shamblin's influence sought to create no matter what the reality of life might actually be, is indeed drawn from their most foundational fantasy of RF being the "ark of safety" .. which has been a Remnant ideal since its earliest days. 

The analogy is fine by me. You are certainly free to disagree. In sharpest contrast, Gwen and the Remnant royalty were never slaves.

They were pampered and exalted figures of leadership who were entitled to enriching themselves simply by being a Shamblin .. or a Lara.  Elizabeth and Michael may have had a domineering mother who hounded them into becoming heirs of a family fortune based on coercion, but they are hardly innocent victims by any stretch of the imagination. Their misery including an exalted social status, deep pockets and pretty secure lifestyles even as their RF brethren sacrificed everything to make it happen.

Elizabeth and Michael are finding rain falls on the unjust as well as the just and that a fair amount of their present troubles centers on their own choices to be the cult leaders they were ..  

Edited November 26, 2021 by Pathologic Antagonist

[treemom]

@Pathologic Antagonist You can be a victim and an abuser at the exact same time.

Were they cult leaders though? Or were they part of a system that would be difficult for any child of Gwen to escape?  Do you really actually think they had choices?  Did you actually watch the documentary you were a part of?
 

They certainly had and will continue to have a more financially secure life than the hoi polloi of the church.  And that wealth came at the cost of the lives and health of other human beings and I hope Michael has a deep emotionally reckoning of that as he leaves.  I hope he gets therapy.  I hope he can protect his children.

Human beings are complex, and the lives left in the wreckage as cults collapse (I am thinking of the Vision Forum as a great example, Kelly Brown….) includes some of the royalty often.  
 

You can be justifiable in your anger and have compassion too.  It’s ok.  It won’t hurt you or your cause.

And I’m not sure being expected to starve yourself and pretend like your son never died is being pampered.  

[WeirdHarold]

6 hours ago, treemom said:

I don’t know what damage and danger Michael is, but I am pretty sure I would rather him waste that money on a Nashville career than have it in the hands of people like the Angers (who I know aren’t in leadership, but are just a good known example of how bad that would be)

 

Hookers and cocaine would be better too.

[formergothardite]

Wasn't Elizabeth also basically pushed into marriage too? 

I know she led the youth ministry, so she did have leadership positions. But like many people in cults, it is a case of her being both a victim of abuse and also participating in abusing others. Like all the adults in this cult she absolutely could and should have left and needs to be held responsible for her actions. But we can acknowledge that Gwen almost certainly broke her spirit at a young age. 

In some ways Gwen was the victim of an eating disorder. Not excusing her one bit but it is pretty clear her most of life revolved around disordered eating. And instead of telling her she needed help, churches and Christian leaders flocked to praise her. They only clutched their pearls over her thoughts on the trinity. 

The whole situation is tragic. A woman who was basically screaming an eating disorder had her starvation ideas praised by the Christian communities that were so obsessed with being thin that they missed all the red flags. Gwen wouldn't have had a rise to power without having gotten her start in mainstream churches. Just imagine what a difference it would have made in the creation of this cult if Christian leaders would have cared as much about her dangerous eating advice as they did about the trinity. All the pain caused by RF might have been prevented if churches had just cared. That makes me angry. All these churches had zero concern about people being told God wanted them to adopt disordered eating techniques. 

 

[cookingbutterchicken]

5 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

Wasn't Elizabeth also basically pushed into marriage too? 

I know she led the youth ministry, so she did have leadership positions. But like many people in cults, it is a case of her being both a victim of abuse and also participating in abusing others. Like all the adults in this cult she absolutely could and should have left and needs to be held responsible for her actions. But we can acknowledge that Gwen almost certainly broke her spirit at a young age. 

In some ways Gwen was the victim of an eating disorder. Not excusing her one bit but it is pretty clear her most of life revolved around disordered eating. And instead of telling her she needed help, churches and Christian leaders flocked to praise her. They only clutched their pearls over her thoughts on the trinity. 

The whole situation is tragic. A woman who was basically screaming an eating disorder had her starvation ideas praised by the Christian communities that were so obsessed with being thin that they missed all the red flags. Gwen wouldn't have had a rise to power without having gotten her start in mainstream churches. Just imagine what a difference it would have made in the creation of this cult if Christian leaders would have cared as much about her dangerous eating advice as they did about the trinity. All the pain caused by RF might have been prevented if churches had just cared. That makes me angry. All these churches had zero concern about people being told God wanted them to adopt disordered eating techniques. 

 

When I did Weigh Down years ago, it wasn’t just one bite and that is it, I feel she changed her teachings over the years in eating (as well as other teachings, ie: divorce, trinity, sabbath…).  She used to say eat until satisfied. If you aren’t sure stop and then wait to see if you are still hungry. But it changed I believe when people couldn’t keep off their weight to starvation, one bites, and more eating disorder teachings. 
 

I truly believe some people can give up food easily, and so they could keep their weight off but struggled with other issues. Some people, keeping the weight off is just harder (or for rf, they didn’t go “all in”) so, since they only way they measured their “fruit” instantly was being thin, she had to change her teaching. 
 

thoughts?

[CRAnn]

12 hours ago, cookingbutterchicken said:

When I did Weigh Down years ago, it wasn’t just one bite and that is it, I feel she changed her teachings over the years in eating (as well as other teachings, ie: divorce, trinity, sabbath…).  She used to say eat until satisfied. If you aren’t sure stop and then wait to see if you are still hungry. But it changed I believe when people couldn’t keep off their weight to starvation, one bites, and more eating disorder teachings. 
 

I truly believe some people can give up food easily, and so they could keep their weight off but struggled with other issues. Some people, keeping the weight off is just harder (or for rf, they didn’t go “all in”) so, since they only way they measured their “fruit” instantly was being thin, she had to change her teaching. 
 

thoughts?

I first did Weigh Down in ‘99 in a random to me UCC (very progressive Christian church and I mention this to highlight how she was in every type of denomination) because it was down the street from where I worked.  I was not a church goer otherwise.  I had already lost 40 lbs counting calories and exercising when I had a surgery and was told I could not exercise for several months.  While recovering at home I saw ole Gwen on the news and ran out to buy her first book and ended up looking for a class cause it really fit the bill for me.  I started losing lbs. again just reading her book.  Her “hog calling” voice, as I’ve heard it described, worked for me because I was born and partly raised in her neck of the woods so it sounded like my favorite aunts.  Never mind that I was raised by “hell raisers” but in a large extended family of fundamentalists and more hell raisers.   (Everyone in Appalachia was one or the other back then.)

I wasn’t the best adherent to Gwen’s then hunger/fullness advice.  I recall my first official day on the program… I decided I’d wait for a growl and hope it would come, but regardless I’d treat myself at a good Italian restaurant for an 8 pm dinner for being so good!   And I did… even though a growl was probably and hour or so away!  And the food tasted better than usual cause I was hungry and I struggled with how much to eat, but ate less than I might have otherwise done.  And I was off!  I lost 30 more lbs trying to wait for a first growl of the day but eating lunch noonish regardless and a smaller dinner….  without a growl. Tons of Diet Coke all day long.  It also served as my breakfast.  I’ve now quit it entirely but that’s another story.  During that “Exodus out of Egypt” class, I read the Bible and faithfully wrote about my sins in the workbook.  I thought I had found a spiritual  leader at last, with a few hard to swallow things like wives submitting to husbands.  But hey, maybe it was what was wrong with my marriage.  (Not!  I was with a very abusive and controlling man who… to just name a few things called me ugly names routinely and occasionally kicked and spit on me and oh so much more.)

While that class was going, I would later understand that RF was forming at WD headquarters.  When my class ended the church reported that no further classes would be scheduled but no word about why.  I assumed I’d find another location.  I ran into a guy from class in the grocery store who told me about the trinity issue and suggested it would likely be hard to find WD classes.  He was right and I was really sad.  WD/RF was in just enough flux at that exact time to lose many thousands like me.  They didn’t have an alternative for us… at all… so we went on with our lives.  The internet was not all that back then and they had no online alternatives or way of corralling people like they do today.

I digress.  

Anyway, in that first book, class and notebook she showed pictures of three meals and two snacks a day and how to carve out your portions of them.  It all sounded so reasonable.  

Personally, I feel her outrageous success went to her head and that biggest sin of all — pride — caused her to form RF.  She may have had some good intentions around forming something “pure” — but pride was woven into her every move and grew over the years like her hair, plastic surgery and makeup.  

There are crazy ironies in life.  I wondered back to WD numerous times over the years, getting closest to RF during the same season when I walked out of my marriage. In those few years since RF had formed it was a huge blessing to me that there were just a few voices to be found through google about the cult-like nature of RF.  Still, I participated in ONE RF service as a “guest” sitting on my knees beside an RF member in a home.   It was like five years since my original class and they still were not organized enough to offer local in person OR online classes well, but I had made contact with several local members who were attempting to do that and to recruit for RF!  I remember she asked me how much weight I thought I needed to lose.  I responded that I wasn’t sure, but I was thinking she was digging for data with which to later control me!  What I was reading online about their controlling behavior served me soooo well.  Also, I was in domestic violence counseling and learning NOT to replace one controller with another.  

I remember well Gwen’s teaching AT THAT VERY TIME was to stay with your spouse and if you were a woman.. to SUBMIT!  REGARDLESS!  I was many years into my marriage and extremely conflicted and confused.  I was also attending a large local evangelical church where I heard the lead pastor (now fallen with his sins but then very respected) say that if you were in a physically abusive marriage to leave and seek safety.  

i just knew that moving toward RF would mean staying in the marriage and frankly I was as ready to leave as I’d ever been.  When I attempted to speak to my husband about counseling, about doing ANYTHING to improve our marriage he would rage at me.  When I suggested one of us needed to be strong enough to leave the marriage, he threatened to kill me and described how he would do it in violence and for the world to witness.  The domestic violence counselor was steering me to leave but wow those people ought to receive awards because their’s is a thankless task.  After 12 or so weeks with her and in my last session she asked me what I thought I was going to do and I responded “Well, he’s okay right now so I am hoping I can keep him like that by being quiet and not making him mad.”  She moved on to another state.  I walked out on my marriage for the first and only time and never looked back about a month later.  I asked that the organization get a message to that counselor to report on my situation but never found out if they actually did.

I have had a love hate relationship with GSL for many years.  She managed to mix some very good psychology with the Bible.  I’ve often wondered which of her RF royalty — or maybe it was David —  helped her do that as I don’t think she did it alone in her room.  

Over the years I’ve run across people who have disrespected me because I stayed in an abusive marriage as long as I did.  They’ve communicated that I was not a “slave” and that I did it in a free country.  I understand their perspective that physical slavery is a totally different thing.  All this to say that while I don’t completely agree with Psychological Antagonist and his description of the RFers as “slaves”, I understand his point about the power of mind control… but feel it must be extended to ALL those affected by GSL…. money or no money.  And, if who have the money would, they could donate much of it to real charity to help themselves find peace.  Peace is what I hope for all the RFers. 
 

 

 

 

 

[Blue]

22 hours ago, formergothardite said:

Just imagine what a difference it would have made in the creation of this cult if Christian leaders would have cared as much about her dangerous eating advice as they did about the trinity. All the pain caused by RF might have been prevented if churches had just cared. That makes me angry. All these churches had zero concern about people being told God wanted them to adopt disordered eating techniques. 

 

Her teachings at that time were not nearly as extreme. At the time she basically tied religion to intuitive eating. Salvation wasn't dependent upon not eating one bite past fullness and pictures of her and Elizabeth from the time even show thin, but not sickly, bodies.

I'm not saying nobody took it to the extreme she pushed later - but WD morphed when it became RF. Even now, if you were to take the beginning class - the majority of it isn't the dangerous teaching - because they need you to get sucked in a bit before it all goes off the rails.

[treemom]

13 minutes ago, Blue said:

Her teachings at that time were not nearly as extreme. At the time she basically tied religion to intuitive eating. Salvation wasn't dependent upon not eating one bite past fullness and pictures of her and Elizabeth from the time even show thin, but not sickly, bodies.

I'm not saying nobody took it to the extreme she pushed later - but WD morphed when it became RF. Even now, if you were to take the beginning class - the majority of it isn't the dangerous teaching - because they need you to get sucked in a bit before it all goes off the rails.

I think the real danger was always present which was the link to religion and eating.  Yes, what she explicitly said became worse over time, but that danger was always there, all the way back to Memphis.

[Blue]

1 hour ago, treemom said:

I think the real danger was always present which was the link to religion and eating.  Yes, what she explicitly said became worse over time, but that danger was always there, all the way back to Memphis.

I don't disagree, but I think there are potential dangers in a lot of things... I can't place blame on churches that didn't pre-emptively kick her out just in case she took it too far 🤷‍♀️ If anything, I think she was too smart to push her RF-brand of crazy until she knew the break was inevitable.

[Baxsmom]

Sped through the assembly tonight. They sang songs by Michael Shamblin, shared tearful testimonies (still paying much homage to Gwen but acknowleding Elizabeth as their new leader) And then creepy AF Russ Morgan spoke.  Isn't he the lawyer they used to go after Natasha for custody of Joe's daughter?  Anyway, very bland, no meat to the service.  If there are any remnant stalking here, my advice is, these services will get seriously boring after awhile (if not already).  

Also noted,  Elizabeth's daughters were right up front and they look really healthy. I am glad the family eating disorder has not found it's way to them.

[Sasha_The_Producer]

I have been looking for the video of gwen on the airplane with Joe does anyone have the link also how can I see the whole taped deposition? 

[freefromthin]

The footage of Gwen in the plane with Joe can be found in this trailer for the Life With Gwen And Joe show. Go to minute 2:41.

 

 

[Sasha_The_Producer]

So I came across this video and It's the first time I heard this get ready.... It's being hypothesis that Gwen and Joe Faked their deaths Video Here

[WeirdHarold]

3 hours ago, Sasha_The_Producer said:

So I came across this video and It's the first time I heard this get ready.... It's being hypothesis that Gwen and Joe Faked their deaths Video Here

I like their title, The Devil Wears Frauda.

[Sasha_The_Producer]

14 hours ago, freefromthin said:

The footage of Gwen in the plane with Joe can be found in this trailer for the Life With Gwen And Joe show. Go to minute 2:41.

 

 

Thank you so much for this  I belive  there is a video somewhere of her doing a live from the plane 

[freefromthin]

53 minutes ago, Sasha_The_Producer said:

Thank you so much for this  I belive  there is a video somewhere of her doing a live from the plane 

I think you're right. I tried to find it. I think they showed the title "Above the Cloud" in the trailer, but I couldn't find that particular video in the lineup.

[Sasha_The_Producer]

26 minutes ago, freefromthin said:

I think you're right. I tried to find it. I think they showed the title "Above the Cloud" in the trailer, but I couldn't find that particular video in the lineup.

Maybe Lizzie  Boredom, Scrubbed it from the net because of the Big Bad Reporters. Perhaps if she Gained Weight in Her Hair like her mother causing lack of blood flow to the brain rendering her ability to spew whatever comes to mind as gospel fact without fear of recourse or accountability. She would stop fearing the media and proclaim this the act of the Devil and its clearly a result of her weak RF members who are living in sin and need to pay the church more money to cure the demonic flow of spiritual attacks. 

Edited November 28, 2021 by Sasha_The_Producer

[freefromthin]

5 minutes ago, Sasha_The_Producer said:

Maybe Lizzie  Boredom, Scrubbed it from the net because of the Big Bad Reporters. Perhaps if she Gained Weight in Her Hair like her mother causing lack of blood flow to the brain rendering her ability to spew whatever comes to mind as gospel fact without fear of recourse or accountability. She would stop fearing the media and proclaim this the act of the Devil and its clearly a result of her weak RF members who are living in sin and need to pay the church more money to cure the demonic flow of spiritual attacks. 

It does seem like that video was taken down. I feel like I've actually watched it. I have watched ALL of the Gwen and Joe videos and I seem to remember one where they were in the plane. Did you happen to see the News Channel 5 report that showed the deposition where Gwen admitted that they have a team that removes things from the internet? She said that they are trying to get the truth out there about Remnant, but I believe that it's more about curating the image that they wanted people to see. 

[RFFriend]

So, just thinking about what Dan did say in his video.... do you think Michael would decide to sell the church property to get the money or maybe he would even want to destroy the church?  Would Elizabeth allow him to do that?  I assume they both have equal shares in her estate.  Seems like Gwen underestimated Michael when she did her will not realizing that he might not care to keep the church going and that she might have needed to leave the church property to the church to keep it going.

I have wondered about what would cause the church to end and that is definitely something that would be very hard to come back from... if they lost their property and place to meet.  Gosh, my peeps would be devastated.  I keep hoping that by some miracle it would automagically become a healthy church led by someone worthy so that my peeps wouldn't get hurt....  this is their whole world.  Just spent time there and made the mistake of asking about Michael.  They shut that down real quick and told me that they are not allowed to talk about it.

[Sasha_The_Producer]

46 minutes ago, freefromthin said:

It does seem like that video was taken down. I feel like I've actually watched it. I have watched ALL of the Gwen and Joe videos and I seem to remember one where they were in the plane. Did you happen to see the News Channel 5 report that showed the deposition where Gwen admitted that they have a team that removes things from the internet? She said that they are trying to get the truth out there about Remnant, but I believe that it's more about curating the image that they wanted people to see. 

Yes! Saw the Channel 5 segment. The reporter has spent two decades in Gwen I wish he would do a Documentary.

I wish to see her full deposition, Gwen also has another video Deposition from years earlier and I dream to see that one as well.

Gwen,  Intrigues me.

[RFFriend]

4 minutes ago, Sasha_The_Producer said:

I wish to see her full deposition, Gwen also has another video Deposition from years earlier and I dream to see that one as well.

Gwen,  Intrigues me.

I would think Natasha has it since she is probably the person that paid for it.  I imagine Natasha has at least lurked this channel if she isn't a member, so maybe she can provide?