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(Possible CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 35: Embattled in Spiritual Warfare!


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Just now, Idlewild said:

Yet when they returned to the US and Derick was grifting for funds, he made a video thanking Josh for his donation. Now he didn’t have to call Josh out publicly, but he certainly didn’t have to kiss his arse and could have privately told him to stick his donation where the sun don’t shine.

Oh, I wasn’t suggesting that Derek was a great human being. Far from it.  I do think, however, that he was able to “think outside the IPL/Duggar box” in a way that others who have married into the family have not.

My impression is that when Derek joined the Duggar Circus, he was going through a period of trying to find himself.  He had fantasies of himself as a missionary or other important “Christian” voice.  He connected with the Duggars because they seemed to have what he wanted (the influence, connections, Christian credentials, etc.).  Initially, he played along quite happily.

As time passed, however, he began to be disillusioned.  I hypothesize that the disillusionment may have begun with the molestation scandal and grown over time. There were a lot of things about the Duggar family and how they did things that he became critical of even though initially he may have gone along with and even participated in.

The money was definitely an issue. Derek (who had accounting training) was able to support himself and Jill with a “real job” and so he was in a position that he could challenge JB for Jill and his share of the TLC money.  Having a bit of education made it possible for him and Jill to move out from JB’s control and think for themselves.

My point was not that Derek was a noble person who “rescued” Jill.  My point was that Jill has been able to develop some distance from the teachings of her childhood (no birth control, for example) and get some help for past traumas because her “headship” has led the way and made her growth possible.  It is not that she independently saw the light.

As for Derek, law school is work, and the pay out he got from JB was money he and Jill had earned.  So although he went through a period of being a wannabe Christian preacher-grifter, he may have outgrown it.   That doesn’t make him a nice person.  It just means that he and Jill have been able to move towards a life outside of JB’s control.  

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1 hour ago, Snarkasarus Rex said:

You’re right, Jill and Wreck did call Boob out, however, I doubt Boob thinks he did anything wrong. 

I was thinking more in terms of a peer or even someone Boobchelle looked up to calling them out and maybe, just maybe they would think about what they’ve done. But that is probably too much to hope for.

Can you think of anyone Jim Bob and Michelle would actually look up to? I can't.  Jim Bob is convinced his way is best. In every situation!  And frankly I don't think Michelle thinks a single thought on her own.

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11 minutes ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

She has made decisions that differ from theirs, but she hasn't publically said she disagrees with most of how she was raised.

Is that something she really needs to go public with? Yes, they're mainstream, conservative Christians, but you have no idea of the distance from IFB/IBLP to SBC. Yes, what she was raised (brainwashed) with is still going to be part of her, part of her vocabulary. As it is, she's only been "out" for just a few years. Like so many other major life changes, it takes TIME.

It took me years to shed the Catholicism I grew up with. Even now though, some of those beliefs and thoughts STILL break through. I mean, it took years just to shed the few years of "fundamentalist" Catholicism that I got into almost 30 years ago, I've been single for a whole 2 years now. Would people think I'm not moving past my former marriage because I'm not dating? 

Major life changes take a long time and are extremely painful

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56 minutes ago, Not that josh's mom said:

Can you think of anyone Jim Bob and Michelle would actually look up to? I can't.  Jim Bob is convinced his way is best. In every situation!  And frankly I don't think Michelle thinks a single thought on her own.

They might listen to the Bates/other IBLP leaders but since the Bates are so messed up they sent their young teen daughters to travel out of the country with creepy Bill I doubt they would actually care about covering up abuse in people they view as part of their group. 
 

 

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3 hours ago, Idlewild said:

Yet when they returned to the US and Derick was grifting for funds, he made a video thanking Josh for his donation. Now he didn’t have to call Josh out publicly, but he certainly didn’t have to kiss his arse and could have privately told him to stick his donation where the sun don’t shine.

There was the creepiest episode of 19 kids and counting - right before the original Josh scandal came out— the married couples were all talking J.B/Michelle, Josh/Anna, Derrick/Jill and Jessa/Ben. Jill was very pregnant.  Josh/Anna was giving some smug, joking lecture to Derrick about how when the baby was born “mom is in charge of input, so dad is in charge of output” or similar wording. A common sentiment about how dad should change the diapers, since mom is making the milk. The LOOK that the soon-to be dad (90% sure it was Derrick, could have been Ben) gave Josh was pure murder. I remember at the time thinking “ wow, don’t know what’s going on, but those two don’t seem to like each other” —- the whole exchange was really tense, which now —- ew. Ew. 

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10 hours ago, Snarkasarus Rex said:

I think his actions in the land purchase debacle are a clue that he’s not going to plead out.

Isn’t that the one where he/the lawyer missed a scheduled hearing?

I never followed what happened after he lost, but according to the below article, Josh hired a third lawyer and is appealing.

Most people would know when to quit. And this is in the recent past, so I think you’re right. Josh isn’t going to plea unless the money strings get cut loose.

https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/josh-duggar-real-estate-lawsuit-not-christianlike.amp

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5 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

There was the creepiest episode of 19 kids and counting - right before the original Josh scandal came out— the married couples were all talking J.B/Michelle, Josh/Anna, Derrick/Jill and Jessa/Ben. Jill was very pregnant.  Josh/Anna was giving some smug, joking lecture to Derrick about how when the baby was born “mom is in charge of input, so dad is in charge of output” or similar wording. A common sentiment about how dad should change the diapers, since mom is making the milk. The LOOK that the soon-to be dad (90% sure it was Derrick, could have been Ben) wagave Josh was pure murder. I remember at the time thinking “ wow, don’t know what’s going on, but those two don’t seem to like each other” —- the whole exchange was really tense, which now —- ew. Ew. 

It was Jessa who was pregnant and Ben the one who looked like wanted to kill somebody.  Anna kept clinging on to Josh and was teary eyed at times.  That must have been the day they all found out that the In Touch article was coming out.  Then tension in that room was so thick you could cut it with a knife.  Derick wasn't there because he had jaw surgery.

 

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10 hours ago, feministxtian said:

Is that something she really needs to go public with? Yes, they're mainstream, conservative Christians, but you have no idea of the distance from IFB/IBLP to SBC. Yes, what she was raised (brainwashed) with is still going to be part of her, part of her vocabulary. As it is, she's only been "out" for just a few years. Like so many other major life changes, it takes TIME.

It took me years to shed the Catholicism I grew up with. Even now though, some of those beliefs and thoughts STILL break through. I mean, it took years just to shed the few years of "fundamentalist" Catholicism that I got into almost 30 years ago, I've been single for a whole 2 years now. Would people think I'm not moving past my former marriage because I'm not dating? 

Major life changes take a long time and are extremely painful

I agree she's changed. I think stating she's the opposite of her parents is a bit of an overstatement. We can agree to disagree.

9 hours ago, viii said:

This is incredibly untrue and dismissive of the hard work that Jill has put into healing and growing. Jill has disagreed with a lot of what her parents tried to teach her - the biggest being birth control and limiting the size of your family. Jill and Derek are both still Christians who are going to share beliefs with their parents, but I think Jill has come a long way from where she was raised. 

I never said Jill isn't making progress, but Jill is not the opposite of her parents. She also doesn't believe in birth control. She believes in "natural planning" and limiting her family size, but she also thinks hormonal birth control causes miscarriages.I agree Jill has made progress in her life, but she gets too much credit for not being her parents when she continues to act like them and follow them to some extent. YMMV

Edited by Bluebirdbluebell
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The biggest change for Jill is that she is prepared to accept secular education. JB didn’t want them having an education that wasn’t bible college (and Joe couldn’t stick at that) or vague learning with a likeminded friend coupled with a basic online course - Jill’s ‘midwifery’.

Jill’s children will be better equipped simply because they will have a better education and access to books that aren’t the bible or about the bible. That is greatest gift she can give them.

Despite crafting her ‘boho hippy’ image, Jill is and will probably remain a very conservative Christian. When she got pushback about her karma sutra kit, she doubled down and stated she believed sex was reserved for marriage between a man and a woman. She is, of course, free to believe that. She isn’t, however, entitled to try and make life difficult or illegal for those who don’t believe it.

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I guess I’m one of the few that wasn’t surprised or impressed by the Dillards’ decision to put Izzy in public school. Dwreck went to public school and really wants Izzy to be the third generation Pistol Pete…it was painfully obvious that wasn’t going to happen if Jill homefooled him. It was just a matter of time, imo, and was always going to happen whether Jill liked it or not.

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Public school is huge for a Duggar. Some fundies are doing homeschool co ops or sending their kids to small Christian schools with a lot of fundie elements. But Jill is sending Israel to the worst of the worst in the minds of many homeschooling fundies. That’s pretty big.

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On 10/15/2021 at 2:56 AM, Bad Wolf said:

I hope he pleads. I can't imagine being a juror and having to sit through the evidence. Would they have to see it? Either way, they will learn more about CSA than anyone needs to know. And it will stay with them. Do they have counseling for the jurors? I would need it. Damn Josh. The effects of his actions are far reaching.

That would be so horrible. Poor jurors. 
I’m still haunted by an article about pedophiles I read years ago that had some descriptions in it. It wasn’t overly graphic and didn’t go in to specific details but I still remeber it way too clearly. It was so aweful. 
That’s why I’ve stayed as far away as possible from the descriptions of the stuff Josh watched. Accidently reading the title of one of the films was bad enough. I don’t want to know more. Hope they put him away until all of his children are grown ups and Anna isn’t fertile any more. 

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15 hours ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

I agree she's changed. I think stating she's the opposite of her parents is a bit of an overstatement. We can agree to disagree.

I never said Jill isn't making progress, but Jill is not the opposite of her parents. She also doesn't believe in birth control. She believes in "natural planning" and limiting her family size, but she also thinks hormonal birth control causes miscarriages.I agree Jill has made progress in her life, but she gets too much credit for not being her parents when she continues to act like them and follow them to some extent. YMMV

That’s not quite right. She said something like “I didn’t want to use hormones” without saying why, and that’s a fairly common choice. They have confirmed that they use birth control and have a lot of sex; they’ve never claimed to use the rhythm method. Presumably condoms and/or a diaphragm are involved.

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Just now, QuiverFullofBooks said:

That’s not quite right. She said something like “I didn’t want to use hormones” without saying why, and that’s a fairly common choice. They have confirmed that they use birth control and have a lot of sex; they’ve never claimed to use the rhythm method. Presumably condoms and/or a diaphragm are involved.

I’ve never heard of a fundie saying condoms lead to miscarriage or anything like that. So when a fundie does seem to use some sort of birth control, I often assume condoms are involved. 

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Two days and counting for Josh to change his plea.

I'm guessing Anna already had the baby.  I don't expect an announcement.

Curious as to whether JB and Anna are on the same page re. whether Josh should go to trial.  This is not to say I think Josh cares, since he appears to do pretty much whatever he wants, but it would be interesting if there was lobbying in both directions.  I suppose his attorney(s) have a solid opinion on the matter by this point, so maybe any other opinions don't matter now or have gone quiet.

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44 minutes ago, Dandruff said:

Two days and counting for Josh to change his plea.

I'm guessing Anna already had the baby.  I don't expect an announcement.

Curious as to whether JB and Anna are on the same page re. whether Josh should go to trial.  This is not to say I think Josh cares, since he appears to do pretty much whatever he wants, but it would be interesting if there was lobbying in both directions.  I suppose his attorney(s) have a solid opinion on the matter by this point, so maybe any other opinions don't matter now or have gone quiet.

You have to wonder what (if anything) Anna is saying privately to Josh.  (Is she saying, “Take it to court, you are not guilty and should trust that the truth will prevail,” or is she saying, “Your lawyers know what they are talking about, and even if you are innocent, my husband, you should plead, so you can come back sooner to your family,” or is she saying something along the lines of, “I can’t believe Satan got you again.  I am praying for you,” and not having an opinion?

As for JB, is he telling Josh what an embarrassment and disgrace he is while he advises him to take a plea, or is he telling him what a disgrace and embarrassment he is while he advises him to go to trial?  Is JB willing to pay for a trial? Does he believe that it will be worth it?

Funny that the only thing we are sure of is that the lawyers are recommending and probably working on a plea deal.   😉

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2 hours ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

That’s not quite right. She said something like “I didn’t want to use hormones” without saying why, and that’s a fairly common choice. They have confirmed that they use birth control and have a lot of sex; they’ve never claimed to use the rhythm method. Presumably condoms and/or a diaphragm are involved.

She absolutely said why! She literally said:

Quote

″We use birth control, but we prefer to use non-hormonal birth control methods because we don’t want to use anything that could potentially cause an abortion,″ 

This is misinformation and Jill should be held accountable for spreading it.

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23 minutes ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

She absolutely said why! She literally said:

 

that is actually a fair reason. She don't want to be responsible for an abortion. That is her right, if we are 'pro choice'. The fact that she actually does use contraception is what needs to be highlighted as really they obviously do a good job at it.  That in itself just shows how far she has removed herself from the believes of her family. She is actually and actively controlling the size of her family with the tools she is comfortable with, and fwiw, that could also include a vasectomy. 

 

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15 minutes ago, Sabine said:

that is actually a fair reason. She don't want to be responsible for an abortion. That is her right, if we are 'pro choice'. The fact that she actually does use contraception is what needs to be highlighted as really they obviously do a good job at it.  That in itself just shows how far she has removed herself from the believes of her family. She is actually and actively controlling the size of her family with the tools she is comfortable with, and fwiw, that could also include a vasectomy. 

 

She has to right to make her own decisions, but her reasoning isn't sound. It's based on false information.

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1 hour ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

She has to right to make her own decisions, but her reasoning isn't sound. It's based on false information.

her reasoning is as valid as any other reasoning. It is her reasoning. You not agreeing to it does not make it less valid. 

And fwiw, the proof is in the pudding, Jill has two kids. Not 5. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Sabine said:

her reasoning is as valid as any other reasoning. It is her reasoning. You not agreeing to it does not make it less valid. 

And fwiw, the proof is in the pudding, Jill has two kids. Not 5. 

 

It isn’t a matter of agreement. Jill is factually incorrect. Hormonal birth control does not cause abortion. She has chosen non-hormonal contraception, which is a valid choice, but her explanation for making that choice is based on a falsehood perpetuated by conservative and fundamentalist Christians.

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4 minutes ago, mpheels said:

It isn’t a matter of agreement. Jill is factually incorrect. Hormonal birth control does not cause abortion. She has chosen non-hormonal contraception, which is a valid choice, but her explanation for making that choice is based on a falsehood perpetuated by conservative and fundamentalist Christians.

Honestly, from where i am standing it does not matter. I have a very good friend who is an atheist and will not take 'hormonal' birth control for the hormones (don't want to change my body and i have known a few of these women specifically in the Green Party movement ) and her birth control was having several abortions. . Its almost a bit like many things, many people believe many things.  The pill gave me terrible depression - this was the early 80's so the pill has gotten better at the time, but i too had several abortions in my life. The pill for what ever reason is not a good fit for all people. 

And while you might want to castigate a women who literally barely fucking learned to read and write for not 'believing' science, i would like to uplift her for believing science enough to find a non hormonal way to prevent pregnancy and doing a good job at it. As for her parroting still her mothers believe that the pill caused her to lose a child, i would say give her another few years, and some education. In the meantime Go Jill and your non hormonal birth control, because at over 5 years in marriage and only two kids it seems to work well for them. 

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3 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

You have to wonder what (if anything) Anna is saying privately to Josh.  (Is she saying, “Take it to court, you are not guilty and should trust that the truth will prevail,” or is she saying, “Your lawyers know what they are talking about, and even if you are innocent, my husband, you should plead, so you can come back sooner to your family,” or is she saying something along the lines of, “I can’t believe Satan got you again.  I am praying for you,” and not having an opinion?

First, I imagine Anna wondered what her (perceived) role in Josh's actions might have been. So often it seems in this culture if the husband has an affair it is partly the wife's fault because she didn't make her husband feel wanted/loved/desired, and wasn't as available as he desired. After Josh's involvement with Ashley Madison came to light I wonder if Anna tried to be more available, make Josh feel more wanted/loved/desired. Clearly there were porn concerns (I'm guessing/hoping they just felt it was adult porn, not CSAM) because Josh had the Covenant Eye's program with Anna as his accountability partner, so I would think Anna would try even harder to be available to Josh so he wouldn't be tempted to view porn.

I imagine Anna is replaying the times she got a little snippy with Josh, or pretended to (or on purpose) fell asleep with the kids while putting them to bed so she didn't have to go to bed with Josh, or made a meal he didn't really like just because she had enough of his crap. She may be wondering what she could have done differently to prevent Josh from viewing online content. 

As for Anna's input I would not be surprised is Jim Bob and Michelle made it clear it is not her decision, and they aren't looking for her input. Michelle may have more of the one on one conversations saying we are paying for the attorneys, Jim Bob is praying on the topic and when the Lord tells him how to proceed we will let you know. I imagine Michelle has said if Josh goes to prison you will need us to support you, and we will if you tow the line. Michelle would probably add a lot more Jesus and bible, but the point would be crystal clear, keep your mouth shut. 

I also wouldn't be surprised if Anna found Josh's actions despicable, but not worthy of criminal scrutiny. If Anna feels CSAM and adult porn are the same in level of sin she may feel her husband is being unjustly targeted for his Christian beliefs. If she feels CSAM and porn are the same she knows plenty of adults view porn and no one is arresting them, ruining their lives. She may concede CSAM is worse, but may feel he was "only" looking at it online, and can get help with rehab, more levels of internet protection, etc. I also wouldn't be surprised if she thinks yes he is guilty of the crimes he is accused of, but he was only found out because is a vocal Christian conservative. 

By no means am I trying to equate an affair and CSAM, or CSAM and porn. I do wonder if Anna feels they are equal. 

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