Pope Francis

[47of74]

Francis had to tell the Vigano / Burke wannabes holding Ambassadorships to knock it off.

Quote

Pope Francis sent a message to apostolic nuncios Thursday informing his ambassadors that they have a responsibility as papal representatives not to criticize the pope or to join groups hostile to the Roman curia.

“It is therefore irreconcilable to be a pontifical representative criticizing the pope behind his back, having blogs or even joining groups hostile to him, to the curia and to the Church of Rome,” Pope Francis said June 13 in remarks distributed to more than 100 nuncios meeting in the Vatican’s Apostolic Palace.

Pope Francis said that he desired to share some simple precepts to help the papal diplomats live out their mission, calling the 4,000 word document a “Ten Commandments” of sorts for nuncios and their co-workers throughout the world.

One of the ten precepts outlined in the document is titled, “The Nuncio is a man of the Pope.” The section states that “certainly every person could have reservations, likes and dislikes, but a good nuncio cannot be hypocritical.”

 

Edited December 30, 2023 by Coconut Flan

[Marmion]

I am reminded of this .  

 

[47of74]

Benedict had relaxed some of the rules about the pre Vatican II mass. Which Francis reversed.  Which the Catholic fundies are all up in arms about. 

Quote

In the weeks following Pope Francis' Traditionis Custodes, the motu proprio rendering his decision to revoke the permissions to celebrate the traditional Latin Mass contained in the 2007 motu proprio Summorum Pontificum, there has been a great deal of wailing and gnashing of teeth by those who champion the old rite. Many of them have proven why Pope Francis was right to do what he did: The traditional Latin Mass had become an incubator for division. Schism is in the air along with the incense.

The morning the news broke about Pope Francis' decision, I voiced my concern for those who were devoted to the old rite but did not buy into all the ideological nonsense that often came with it. But in the weeks since, Francis has been proven right. The traditional Latin Mass led to a distorted ecclesiology and, at least in America, opened a new battlefront in the culture wars. If you doubt the pope was right, you have only to listen to his critics.

I just heard of this today.  There’s a lot of beauty in the old rite, but also a lot of idealogical baggage that goes with it so Francis was probably wise to put limits on it. 

[Coconut Flan]

It's been out for what a week or more now.   There was a tendency for the Latin mass folks to separate themselves and become cultish.  That's what he's trying to stop. 

[PennySycamore]

YAY!!!!

These Latin Mass people need to read the book Now That You Are a Catholic which my campus parish gave to me when I converted in '75.  It explains why things changed with Vatican II.  The congregation aren't supposed to be just spectators at a Mass that they really don't understand, but active participants in the Mass.  

[47of74]

I don't think I would have even known about it had I not saw something on FB today that the New York Times put up there which prompted me to look a bit further.  It hasn't really made the news here at all.  The biggest Catholic news around here lately has been Burke coming down with COVID.

I think for some people attending the mass was a bit of curiosity to see how mass was done when parents or grandparents were growing up, but yes others became kind of cultish about the whole thing and tried to separate themselves out as the only true Catholics left.  One thing that bugged me was how people merely curious about studying the mass a bit further online could get into some pretty nasty rabbit holes.

When St. Mary's in Dubuque closed several years ago there was one of these groups that wanted to take over the church and run it for the archdiocese and offer Latin mass.  The Archbishop at the time didn't respond to their request and closed the parish as planned.  Dubuque had some other recent negative experience with some cultish Catholic groups so I think they wanted to give the group a wide berth. 

[quiversR4hunting]

This is awesome news! 

45 minutes ago, PennySycamore said:

YAY!!!!

These Latin Mass people need to read the book Now That You Are a Catholic which my campus parish gave to me when I converted in '75.  It explains why things changed with Vatican II.  The congregation aren't supposed to be just spectators at a Mass that they really don't understand, but active participants in the Mass.  

I should look at that book just to see what it said. I was born in the 70s so the only Latin I know is some of the songs with some Latin words in it. 

I wonder what Amy Comey Barrett thinks about this since she is a member of that weird right wing "catholic" group at Notre Dame. She might be happier in a fundie church rather than a Catholic one. 

[indianabones]

I bet Kendra Tierney is PISSED.

[NachosFlandersStyle]

Hoo boy, "Catholic twitter" has been losing its shit over that one. I mean, how are they supposed to find beauty in the mass when they know what the words mean?? A lot of the criticism alleges that "no one" goes to contemporary services and that Latin masses are exploding in popularity. As a number of people have pointed out, this is just mathematically false-- it is only a fraction of a percent of all parishes that even offer Latin mass.

And Francis isn't even banning the practice! He's just saying that it should be approved on a case-by-case basis. But the rads don't want to be reminded that they're part of a larger organization, I guess.

 

Edited August 17, 2021 by NachosFlandersStyle
Duplicate post

[postscript]

Wasn’t there a male ultra-right Catholic blogger who had a weirdly specific list of requirements for a future wife? If I remember correctly, he loved the name Jillian. I seem to remember him being discussed some years back, during my lengthy lurking phase. No recollection of his name, and I’m not about to hunt down his blog, which read as the musings of an ultra-Catholic incel.  He considered anything other than the Latin mass an abomination. I bet he’s losing his shit. 

[Loveday]

31 minutes ago, NachosFlandersStyle said:

Hoo boy, "Catholic twitter" has been losing its shit over that one. I mean, how are they supposed to find beauty in the mass when they know what the words mean?? A lot of the criticism alleges that "no one" goes to contemporary services and that Latin masses are exploding in popularity. As a number of people have pointed out, this is just mathematically false-- it is only a fraction of a percent of all parishes that even offer Latin mass.

And Francis isn't even banning the practice! He's just saying that it should be approved on a case-by-case basis. But the rads don't want to be reminded that they're part of a larger organization, I guess.

 

I live in a pretty big geographical diocese; it takes in a good bit of Virginia, if not all of it (I believe Northern VA is its own diocese), and includes all of southeastern VA, all seven cities and more. There are a lot of Catholic churches here, but as far as I know, there is only ONE church that offers the Latin mass in southeastern VA. Participation/membership there has been fairly steady for some years now; they're not growing by leaps and bounds or anything. So yeah, it's not like Catholics are flocking in droves to hear the old rite and abandoning their own parishes in the process.

[Howl]

20 minutes ago, postscript said:

Wasn’t there a male ultra-right Catholic blogger who had a weirdly specific list of requirements for a future wife? If I remember correctly, he loved the name Jillian.

Now there's a blast from the past.  Yes, you recall is correct.  He was a bit...odd...I doubt if he ever found his Jillian. 

[keen23]

16 minutes ago, Howl said:

Now there's a blast from the past.  Yes, you recall is correct.  He was a bit...odd...I doubt if he ever found his Jillian. 

This thread? It's insightful?

 

[47of74]

43 minutes ago, NachosFlandersStyle said:

Hoo boy, "Catholic twitter" has been losing its shit over that one. I mean, how are they supposed to find beauty in the mass when they know what the words mean?? A lot of the criticism alleges that "no one" goes to contemporary services and that Latin masses are exploding in popularity. As a number of people have pointed out, this is just mathematically false-- it is only a fraction of a percent of all parishes that even offer Latin mass.

And Francis isn't even banning the practice! He's just saying that it should be approved on a case-by-case basis. But the rads don't want to be reminded that they're part of a larger organization, I guess.

 

One of the arguments for using Latin in mass is that it is a universal language of the church so in theory a person who speaks one language would be able to go into a church in another country and understand the mass.  (Assuming of course they have any understanding of Latin).  I've seen some large masses from the Vatican that were done at least partially in Latin for that reason to reach a wide an audience as possible.

 

[Coconut Flan]

Our diocese had a small but lively Latin mass contingent.  The bishop offered them a run down parish where the neighborhood had changed and could no longer support having a church and priest.  They took it and found a priest, fixed up the church and school, and have a small but thriving parish going.  That's one little parish in a county of over 3.3 million people.  They're happy and many other parishes are happy to have them settled and not creating issues.  But it isn't exactly what the grand plan for Catholics everywhere is.  Again though this is an area where we're used to a lot of different vernacular masses so it becomes no big deal a parish is  doing Latin when you have so many others using different languages.

[postscript]

22 minutes ago, keen23 said:

This thread? It's insightful?

 

Yep, that’s him. I’m going to have to reread that thread. It was . . .educational. 

looking at the blog, he seems to have gone inactive, but he did post a diatribe about a month ago protesting the restriction of the Latin mass, complete with citations to papal bulls. No surprise, he’s anti-mask. 

[Bluebirdbluebell]

People who only like Latin Mass are the Catholic equivalent of people who only like the original King James Bible. (There are modern updates of the King James Version, but these people only like the version from 1600s.)

Pope Francis is right to place restrictions, but as an ex-Catholic, I don't think he's doing enough. He gets way too much credit for being a "reformer", a "liberal", etc. 

[GreyhoundFan]

There is one church near me that is super-traditional and has at least one Latin Mass weekly. That parish is super strict about everything. Some examples, excerpted from their wedding requirements:

Quote

Cohabitation (“Living together before marriage”)

Cohabitation is unlawful and is not compatible with Catholic teaching and human freedom. Cohabitation calls into question the understanding of the true nature of Christian marriage. It is seriously sinful and, as an irregular situation, it may also (incorrectly) suggest to family and friends that such an arrangement is acceptable as a Christian practice.

 

Ring-bearers

 Ring-bearers and flower girls should not be very young children (less than seven years old). The priest usually requires that an adult escort the children down the aisle.

 

Dress should be modest and in accord with Christian sensibilities

The secular culture often promotes values and practices contrary to the Catholic faith, tradition, and practice. While we welcome all people to our parish, we will not permit any outward display on our parish property that is offensive to Catholic tradition or sensibilities, especially by anyone having an active public role in the wedding. For example, participants should dress in the manner customarily associated with their biological sex; only biological males should serve as groomsmen, and only biological females should serve as bridesmaids. We will strictly observe this requirement. Abuses may result in the cancellation of the ceremony, even on the wedding day.

 

Procession

The ushers seat guests individually unless time is short.

The ushers seat the parents of the groom.

The mother of the bride is seated – the groomsmen join the groom and priest in the sacristy (room back of the altar)

The seating of the bride's mother is typically the cue for the organist to transition to the bridal entrance music.

The priest rings the bell (the cue for the musicians) and leads the groom, the best man, and the groomsmen -- in that order -- to the front of the altar; they face the back of the church waiting for the bride, left hand on the front pew rail (for order and decorum purposes)

The bridesmaids enter individually; allow for half the length of the aisle before another bridesmaid enters.

The maid of honor is the last of the bridesmaids to enter.

The bridesmaids line up in front of the pews. They parallel the groomsmen. For purposes of symmetry, they look in the same direction as the groomsmen.

The flower children enter and side with the bridesmaids (or at least under the attentive eye of bridesmaids or others to make sure they get down the aisle promptly).

The ring-bearer, if there is one, stands next to the best man.

The bride is led down the aisle by her father; father on the right, bride on the left.

Upon reaching the front of the church, the father gives her hand to the groom.

The bride and groom take their position in front of the kneeler for the ceremony or Mass to begin.

Chairs for the bride and groom are optional. (A chair may obstruct the bridal gown, so opting against the placement of chairs in the sanctuary is permitted.)

 

[Carrots]

On 8/18/2021 at 5:45 AM, indianabones said:

I bet Kendra Tierney is PISSED.

Actually she is more Opus Dei than trad Catholic. Not as in love with Latin and veils, totally into brown scapulars and making sure every second of the day is Catholic related.

Edited to add: Carolyn Svellerella on the other hand...a Pope that doesn't like Latin and likes vaccines 🤯

Edited August 19, 2021 by Carrots

[SassyPants]

My perspective as a person raised Catholic and involved in the church until age 45, and since have moved on to Unitarianism. The RC Church is literally all about the ONE true church. The basic tenet is to live and love like Jesus; to treat everyone like Jesus treated his contemporaries. If it was good enough for the leader, it’s good enough for his flock, whom he died on the cross to save and offer eternal life. So, these holier than thou folks who are isolating themselves from their mainstream Catholic Communities, and who are refusing to follow the edits of V2 and the current Pope, are totally NOT living or emulating the message and life of Jesus. 

[QuiverFullofBooks]

On 8/17/2021 at 6:26 PM, GreyhoundFan said:

There is one church near me that is super-traditional and has at least one Latin Mass weekly. That parish is super strict about everything. Some examples, excerpted from their wedding requirements:

 

Wow, that’s...specific. You have to wonder about all the weddings that led them to put in every little rule.

[treemom]

On 8/17/2021 at 3:33 PM, quiversR4hunting said:

This is awesome news! 

I should look at that book just to see what it said. I was born in the 70s so the only Latin I know is some of the songs with some Latin words in it. 

I wonder what Amy Comey Barrett thinks about this since she is a member of that weird right wing "catholic" group at Notre Dame. She might be happier in a fundie church rather than a Catholic one. 

So just a few corrections, I live in the area.  The cult is not at all associated with Notre Dame.  She taught at NDU and is Catholic and is also part of People of Praise, which is totally a charismatic cult, as to how malignant I’m not sure.  But technically People of Praise isn’t Catholic, although just because this area is heavily Catholic it tends to be more heavily Charismatic Catholic.  It’s weird.

 

PoP also runs a private school, that while has good academic standards and I have friends who had their kids go there, has some issues.  Include a bunch of sexual abuse and assault stuff that is coming out.

As to what ACB might think, probably indifferent or mildly annoyed.  She probably is fine with a more accessible Mass as it would be in line with her preferred Charismatic style, far more so than Latin Mass.  

 

she’s conservative.  She’s scary.  But do not at all think that lines up with key fundamentalist principles.  Her children were absolutely taught evolution is 100%.  That is what Trinity teaches.  I think she’s all kinda of problems and sexist is one of them.  But just be careful about assuming she’s a fundamentalist.  

[PennySycamore]

The People of Praise community started in South Bend, Indiana, but soon established satellite communities.  I think they were always ecumenical.  I think they are not quite as batshit crazy as the nearby Mother of God community or the Word of God community in Ann Arbor, Michigan which are totally batshit.  

[medimus]

I think technically what has been restricted is the Tridentine mass. So you could do the normal (novus ordu, I think) mass in latin if there were people who wanted it. But the Tridentine or extraordinary form of the mass which is only ever in Latin needs specific permission. I'll try to find the link where it explains.

[47of74]

30 minutes ago, medimus said:

I think technically what has been restricted is the Tridentine mass. So you could do the normal (novus ordu, I think) mass in latin if there were people who wanted it. But the Tridentine or extraordinary form of the mass which is only ever in Latin needs specific permission. I'll try to find the link where it explains.

I believe you’re right. I haven’t heard of it being done at a parish level but I suppose a parish could if they wanted to.  I think mainly when the present form is said in Latin it’s for large multinational masses like Christmas at St. Peter’s that are shown on TV. 

The post Vatican II mass was originally written and is maintained in Latin then from there it’s translated into the local languages.