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Maxwell 51: Empty Nesters, Empty Vesters? End of an Era


Coconut Flan

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I believe Sarah does book keeping for her brother's companies. I remember her talking about using quickbooks. Also, I think we under estimate how much money she made from the Moodys. 

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17 minutes ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

How do Chelsy and Anna enter into this? Chelsy was young woman who worked for the family business, wrote the family blog and toured with her family the way the Maxwell ladies used to. Anna Craig is very young woman, who also toured with her family and spent most of her adult life courting Jesse before getting married at 20.  I guess Chelsy wears jeans and watches some movies, but those are very small changes. The bigger picture is these women are more alike than they are different.

After a lifetime of indoctrination, questioning the small things is a big step toward questioning the big things. If it's OK for Chelsy to wear jeans, why is it not OK for Sarah to do so? She had to have wondered. Chelsy is good enough to marry into the family, she must be godly, so it no longer computes that wearing jeans is ungodly. Once that question is raised, it's naturally going to be followed by other ones - eventually leading to "well why can't I go to college" and "why can't I live on my own".

I know every single time a fundie woman is seen wearing pants there's a rush of "wow! Progress!" followed by a shower of "Ugh, it's just pants. She's still awful and patriarchal and fundie." and yeah, that's true. But baby steps are still steps. Jill Duggar didn't go from dad's house straight into getting a nose ring and sending her kids to school. It took several years and lots of baby steps - and missteps - along the way. (And therapy, which I think all these people need! But even that takes steps, if you've been told your whole life just to pray and everything will be great.) 

I think a lot of this has been happening over time, and the Maxwells have just finally decided they can't hide it anymore. But I don't expect Sarah to run right out and get a tattoo and spend a few weeks on a Mexican beach in a bikini. It'd be great if she felt free to do that, but I think she's still taking the steps away from the legalistic rules her parents enforced.

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3 minutes ago, ElizaB said:

I believe Sarah does book keeping for her brother's companies. I remember her talking about using quickbooks. Also, I think we under estimate how much money she made from the Moodys. 

I don't know if we underestimated how much she made - there was a time when those books were probably carrying their "ministry". i think we underestimated her access to the money. Not knowing if it was hers or Steve's; what Steve made her do with it. If she was saving it or he was in control of it. The money was clearly coming in. Where was it going was the bigger question. I thought.

Personally, I never thought she had access to it. Not all of it anyway. She has gained access recently - buying Ellie, buying a car and now moving out. But all those years she was living at home? Was he making her save it or invest it or what? 

I figured that it went into a trust and now that the Maxwell Family Trust has purchased/owns all that property we recently found, I think so even more. That way "the girls" can have what they need, but they still don't have their own money, like good little stay at home daughters who need a headship. 

But, who knows. 

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I'd be really interested to see a log of profits for all their books. I think it is obvious that Sarah and Teri's books are the big earners compared to Steve's. I wonder how this sits with him. 

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31 minutes ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

They didn't totally follow the diet, but they were put on a less intense version of the diet.  They were only allowed 3 oz. of meat which is smaller than most restaurant portions of meat, (McDonald's hamburgers aside). 

I have no idea what the Maxwells believe anymore. They clearly are changing. 

How do Chelsy and Anna enter into this? Chelsy was young woman who worked for the family business, wrote the family blog and toured with her family the way the Maxwell ladies used to. Anna Craig is very young woman, who also toured with her family and spent most of her adult life courting Jesse before getting married at 20.  I guess Chelsy wears jeans and watches some movies, but those are very small changes. The bigger picture is these women are more alike than they are different.

You have to take small steps. Anna and Chelsy no longer live at home and under their father’s thumb. They have both been able to make adult decisions. Sarah is nearing 40 and up until this time, she has been living the life of a 10 YO. Plus, obviously Anna and Chelsy were able to meet a man and marry, something none of the Maxwells, including the nearly 40 YO ,have accomplished. Why is that? The Maxwell’s were on the homeschool, conference circuit, why didn’t Sarah (or her sisters) ever meet anyone?  Being single, or a SAHD is great, IF THATS WHAT YOU WANT vs what your DAD dictates. 

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I could be wrong, but I don't think the "Maxwell Family Trust" is related to the Maxwells we know. The 411 Address is used on some campaign paperwork from 2018 and the property doesn't appear to have changed hands since 2016. Furthermore, the "Maxwell Family Trust" pays taxes on a third property, which IS on the same street where Steve and Teri reside. However, it's an industrial warehouse type building, not their residence. 

If anyone wants to dig further, have at it. There are several non-Maxwell Maxwells in Leavenworth. 

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1 hour ago, Maggie Mae said:

I could be wrong, but I don't think the "Maxwell Family Trust" is related to the Maxwells we know. The 411 Address is used on some campaign paperwork from 2018 and the property doesn't appear to have changed hands since 2016. Furthermore, the "Maxwell Family Trust" pays taxes on a third property, which IS on the same street where Steve and Teri reside. However, it's an industrial warehouse type building, not their residence. 

If anyone wants to dig further, have at it. There are several non-Maxwell Maxwells in Leavenworth. 

According to public records, Sarah is living at the house that her brother Joseph and SIL Elissa sold a year or so ago.

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10 minutes ago, Rosie said:

According to public records, Sarah is living at the house that her brother Joseph and SIL Elissa sold a year or so ago.

That may be due to her working for Swift Otter. Her name may have been linked to that address   If Steve was truthful about her just moving this last week it is probably too soon for her name and address to be showing up places.

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3 hours ago, fundiefan said:

No idea what she does or how she does it. But even if she does work remotely (I presume that's what you mean by "online") moving closer to Joseph over Nathan would be for....what reason? 

I just don't think her jobs for her brothers are dictating where she moved. She may have moved out, but she is Sarah Maxwell. Why would she leave her life entirely? She has lived in Leavenworth all along; what would be the motive to move an hour away? She attends the church in Leavenworth and is apparently significantly involved with the church - enough so that it was given as a reason contributing to her moving out - moving closer to Joseph wouldn't make church participation any easier. Most of her family is in Leavenworth, and when Anna & Mary have vacations - where are they going to go? Leavenworth. 

 

Whoa - are we sure the church is in Leavenworth? I thought it was closer to KC. 

It’s been years since I’ve visited, but L-worth is a very old town, and forgive me for saying so, a little beaten-up. 
 

Olathe, OTOH, I perceive to be more the small town turning into an exurb for KC and the southern sprawl areas of the KC area across the MO/KS state line. New construction, pretty places. I could be wrong on both municipalities.  
 

i don’t remember the L to O drive to have been very long, back in the days of station wagons snd optional, lap-only seatbelts. 
 

What I’m saying is, Sarah’s place could be somewhere fresher & newer, and even then she could still attend church and church functions in L.

LOL - I am realizing how much I’ve identified with Sarah over the years!  The wish-fulfillment is strong with me on how I hope that one is living her young life! :) 

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4 minutes ago, MamaJunebug said:

Whoa - are we sure the church is in Leavenworth? I thought it was closer to KC. 

It’s been years since I’ve visited, but L-worth is a very old town, and forgive me for saying so, a little beaten-up. 
 

Olathe, OTOH, I perceive to be more the small town turning into an exurb for KC and the southern sprawl areas of the KC area across the MO/KS state line. New construction, pretty places. I could be wrong on both municipalities.  
 

i don’t remember the L to O drive to have been very long, back in the days of station wagons snd optional, lap-only seatbelts. 
 

What I’m saying is, Sarah’s place could be somewhere fresher & newer, and even then she could still attend church and church functions in L.

LOL - I am realizing how much I’ve identified with Sarah over the years!  The wish-fulfillment is strong with me on how I hope that one is living her young life! :) 

Yes, we know the church is in Leavenworth.

According to Zillow, Redfin & Realtor.com, Joseph's old house is not for sale & last sold last year, when Joseph sold it. I bet if Sarah's name is associated with it it's because she works for Swift Otter. And, a lot of their houses have many Maxwell's associated with them because they all lived on top of each other at one time. Once associated with someone, you show up at their address on a ton of these sites. 

Edited by fundiefan
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8 minutes ago, Queen Of Hearts said:

That may be due to her working for Swift Otter. Her name may have been linked to that address   If Steve was truthful about her just moving this last week it is probably too soon for her name and address to be showing up places.

If she bought it some time ago (maybe as an "investment" or "rental property") and then decided she was going to live in it her own self, that would work. When Joe sold the house a year ago, did anybody look to see who BOUGHT it? I know there was a lot of interest in the fact that he'd moved, and sold the split foyer for waaaayyyyy more than he paid for it, but I don't know that the buyer ever came up.

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6 hours ago, Alisamer said:

 I agree everything had to start with baby steps. Possibly as far back as Chelsy marrying into the family, and probably pushed farther once they joined a real church.

I married into a farming family where my husband was in a partnership with his parents running a farm.  As the relationship between my husband and his parents deteriorated over time, I started reading books on family businesses to try and stay grounded.  One "truism" that was frequently present on dysfunctional farms was "all of the problems are caused by the in-laws".   In systems where the older generation has trained the younger generation that the older generations' wishes are sacrosanct, the first people who cause disruptions in the system are the spouses of the younger generation who aren't working on the same unspoken rules.

Chelsy caused real perturbations in the system with her connections to large groups of certified real Christians and her unwillingness to hide her engagement until after she was married - but Melanie was the one who really messed up the system.  She's the one who ruined family pictures after Abigail was born by refusing to wear matching frumpers.   

The real reasons are probably myriad and related to growing desire for independence and decreasing resources for Steve to use to support four dependent adult women - but the people who will be blamed are probably the daughters in law......

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29 minutes ago, Bethy said:

he'd moved, and sold the split foyer for waaaayyyyy more than he paid for it

Maybe it is just me but it seems odd to me to sell to family for "way more" than someone paid for something. I would have thought he would have given her a family discount ie for cost or just a bit above cost. If someone sells something  to family at a big profit I start to wonder if (1) they did not like that relative (2) there is some kind financial scheme. 

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14 minutes ago, browngrl said:

Maybe it is just me but it seems odd to me to sell to family for "way more" than someone paid for something. I would have thought he would have given her a family discount ie for cost or just a bit above cost. If someone sells something  to family at a big profit I start to wonder if (1) they did not like that relative (2) there is some kind financial scheme. 

Joseph did well selling his house with about $100K profit. 

But he bought his house close to falling down & used family labor to fix it up. If he sold his house to a sibling for "more than he paid" he seriously would have ripped his sibling off & basically said eff you for all that work, now pay me more money to buy the place.

But, the person who paid 2020 taxes on Joseph's old house is not a Maxwell, so he did not do that. 

Edited by fundiefan
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From the last thread:

"I do have to wonder what the Christopher & Nathan Maxwells are doing these days? How are they managing their broods of six young children without their sisters to help them & their wives? Both Melanie & Anna have had "the girls' around since the first one came along. Neither has ever parented without that safety net. Same with Chelsy, although she doesn't seem to have been as reliant on "the girls" as Melanie & Anna. "

While no Mom turns down real help, maybe they were sick of the invasion of THEIR privacy by HIS sisters? Ok, that's putting it too strongly, but truly. It's THEIR family. Nothing worse than the "pretend Mommy" at the office with kids drawings all over her cubicle and car seats in her car that are used maybe once in a year. They are her nieces/nephews or "godchildren." Something tells me it might be a bit of this. Maybe they prefer to organize their own lives and have the s-i-l and m-i-l over just to have fun or just when extra hands are really needed?

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4 hours ago, SassyPants said:

You have to take small steps. Anna and Chelsy no longer live at home and under their father’s thumb. They have both been able to make adult decisions. Sarah is nearing 40 and up until this time, she has been living the life of a 10 YO. Plus, obviously Anna and Chelsy were able to meet a man and marry, something none of the Maxwells, including the nearly 40 YO ,have accomplished. Why is that? The Maxwell’s were on the homeschool, conference circuit, why didn’t Sarah (or her sisters) ever meet anyone?  Being single, or a SAHD is great, IF THATS WHAT YOU WANT vs what your DAD dictates. 

Another "something to consider" is how being married and away from Steve might have changed John and Jesse. Maybe the changes in their own lives inspired them to help their sisters who were stuck at home? I also wonder about Joseph, who started off living close to the family compound, but then moved farther away.

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39 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

It’s those reversal kids. Steve’s sperm after the vasectomy was obviously the rebellious kind. 

LOL!

Seriously, though, John has often been described as the most rebellious and most challenging of the Maxwell kids. So is it a coincidence that things started to change in the Maxwell family after he got married? Some people have speculated that Chelsy was behind some of these changes, but I wonder if at least some of this started with John?

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3 hours ago, IReallyAmHopewell said:

While no Mom turns down real help, maybe they were sick of the invasion of THEIR privacy by HIS sisters? Ok, that's putting it too strongly, but truly. It's THEIR family.

I always wondered how the daughters-in-love felt about Teri and the girls swooping into their homes and cleaning everything to their own standards. Maybe they were thrilled to bits but if I were in their shoes I would have found it hard to be gracious.

 

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10 hours ago, SassyPants said:

It wasn’t necessarily the fact that they were all single and living at home, but that they had zero autonomy over their own lives; choices and decisions made. For women well into their 20s and one nearing forty, that is just all kinds of dysfunctional and wrong. Once those ladies saw the lives and choices of the Christian women in their church, on their missions and married into their family (Anna and Chelsy), the 3 daughters had to start questioning…they had to. If Anna and Chelsy were good enough for the Max sons, why couldn’t S, A and M a also have more mainstream choices?  Even Jana Duggar can have friends, wear pants and travel.

I'm not sure whether they had much less autonomy than the boys though really. In fundie land, not just the Maxwells, boys are also considered to be under the authority of their fathers until they get married, and I think would still be expected to oblige their fathers' wishes after marriage. And we know that Christopher in particular was also prevented from pursuing the career he wanted to pursue, while the other boys have all been pushed into particular careers (those where they could be self-taught and own their own businesses).

We also only know what's been reported on the blog and have no idea what else the girls may be doing. We know that Anna and Mary have travelled overseas at least twice for missions work, and Sarah has also travelled across the US to visit friends on her own. They obviously have some friends, although most of them are not located in Kansas as they are people they knew from their conferences/homeschool co-op days. We can assume that the pants wearing is a recent thing, but we also can't rule out that they just chose not to put any photos of them wearing pants on the blog. 

The key difference between Maxwells and non-fundies is probably the expectation/freedom on pursue particular careers, attend college and live independently. However, women not pursuing careers or further education is pretty much standard for fundies, and if the jobs that the girls had working for the brothers/the Titus2 ministry was just something to tide them over until marriage - well (sadly) that's not completely uncommon for non-fundie women either.

So what I feel like is that the Maxwells would argue that the kids always did have the freedom to travel, pursue their own careers, move out, make friend or wear particular clothes, especially after they reached adulthood.  However, I think what actually happened is that Steve guilt-tripped and manipulated the kids into doing what he wanted, or controlled the purse strings to limit their options. With the girls eventually earning/saving enough money to be in a financial position to make their own decisions, he would have lost that control over them.

I just don't think we'll ever find out if he actually changed his mind about stuff or what went down.

8 hours ago, fundiefan said:

I figured that it went into a trust and now that the Maxwell Family Trust has purchased/owns all that property we recently found, I think so even more. That way "the girls" can have what they need, but they still don't have their own money, like good little stay at home daughters who need a headship. 

I'm not sure if the Maxwell Family Trust properties are theirs though. I did some googling and came up with another Maxwell living in one of those properties, who has a different first name from any of the Maxwell 'extended family'.

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3 hours ago, FloraDoraDolly said:

LOL!

Seriously, though, John has often been described as the most rebellious and most challenging of the Maxwell kids. So is it a coincidence that things started to change in the Maxwell family after he got married? Some people have speculated that Chelsy was behind some of these changes, but I wonder if at least some of this started with John?

Actualy I see John and Chelsy very fundie and Maxwellian (the way they schedule and train their children). It is Joseph who did the big changes IMO: travelling to ungodly business congresses, putting boundaries to make his family private, joining a different church, leaving the compound and taking Jesse to the wild side haha.

1 hour ago, Black Aliss said:

I always wondered how the daughters-in-love felt about Teri and the girls swooping into their homes and cleaning everything to their own standards. Maybe they were thrilled to bits but if I were in their shoes I would have found it hard to be gracious.

 

Melanie was in bed rest during her pregnancies. I'm.sure she was happy having someone doing the laundry.

4 hours ago, IReallyAmHopewell said:

"I do have to wonder what the Christopher & Nathan Maxwells are doing these days? How are they managing their broods of six young children without their sisters to help them & their wives?

Not sure about Anna Marie, but Melanie has no problem, having a 13 (14?) year old to help. In addition, how old Debbie is? I'm a bit lost with Grandmaxwells, but she must be 3 or 4 years old, so the big work (diapers, waking up at night etc) is over.

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8 hours ago, Rosie said:

According to public records, Sarah is living at the house that her brother Joseph and SIL Elissa sold a year or so ago.

How does that contradict what I said? I also used public records. 

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1 hour ago, Melissa1977 said:

Actualy I see John and Chelsy very fundie and Maxwellian (the way they schedule and train their children). It is Joseph who did the big changes IMO: travelling to ungodly business congresses, putting boundaries to make his family private, joining a different church, leaving the compound and taking Jesse to the wild side haha.

Melanie was in bed rest during her pregnancies. I'm.sure she was happy having someone doing the laundry.

Not sure about Anna Marie, but Melanie has no problem, having a 13 (14?) year old to help. In addition, how old Debbie is? I'm a bit lost with Grandmaxwells, but she must be 3 or 4 years old, so the big work (diapers, waking up at night etc) is over.

Debbie is 2 years old, but she has 3 daughters between 13 and 9 to help with the little ones. Probably Melanie and Nathan are done having kids so she won't be pregnant and having to deal young ones. 

I agree with about John and Chelsy. I still don't think Chelsy and Anna are much of an influence. Doesn't Gigi wear pants and so Teri's sister and maybe Steve's sisters wear pants? Heck, they live in a suburban neighborhood where they probably see women in pants all the time. 

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Sarah has replied to three comments, saying "I would like to do a third book in the Hill Top Adventures, but we’ll see. Depends on multiple factors." and "we'll see" and "not sure yet".

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