Dillards 90: Degrees, Exams, Vacations and Vaccinations, Oh MY!

[NotQuiteMotY]

10 hours ago, AprilQuilt said:

 

It's hardly Gattaca at this point but I do side-eye that second instance. Like what else about your child will you wish to control? What ideas do you have about gender or how a family 'should' be? When they start expressing preferences beyond your control, how will you feel? The best thing my daughter has done for me is confound my expectations. She's blown the things I thought I wanted right out of the water. I'm grateful for that dose of humility.

https://www.vogue.com/article/chrissy-teigen-ivf-gender-selection-controversy-explained

This is the part that gets me. I feel like the sex of the child is only the first of many, many things you can't control with a child, and if you can't deal with losing control over that there might be bigger issues than just wanting a particular sex, especially if that preference is steeped in gender stereotypes. (I'm going to note here that I'm not critiquing anyone who may be sad for a while over not getting a "preferred" sex, because we all have our own ideas and hopes about what the future will be, as long as they can get past that to be a loving and supportive parent regardless.) If nothing else, what does it say to any existing children about how much you value them? It gets stickier in cases like @justordinary mentioned above, obviously, where you'd be doing IVF anyway for fertility or health reasons, but for sex selection alone seems iffy to me.

[just_ordinary]

15 hours ago, NotQuiteMotY said:

This is the part that gets me. I feel like the sex of the child is only the first of many, many things you can't control with a child, and if you can't deal with losing control over that there might be bigger issues than just wanting a particular sex, especially if that preference is steeped in gender stereotypes. (I'm going to note here that I'm not critiquing anyone who may be sad for a while over not getting a "preferred" sex, because we all have our own ideas and hopes about what the future will be, as long as they can get past that to be a loving and supportive parent regardless.) If nothing else, what does it say to any existing children about how much you value them? It gets stickier in cases like @justordinary mentioned above, obviously, where you'd be doing IVF anyway for fertility or health reasons, but for sex selection alone seems iffy to me.

I personally agree. The question, if it should be forbidden in general is a different one and harder to answer. Moving away from personal believes to a general solution based on a more objective approach including many different fields is hard. 
In many countries (where sex education and access to contraceptives is the norm and not the exception) the decision for a child is not the first of massive control. And in a world where we decide on a big scale what we want and when we want it, children definitely have become a control issue. It starts with the idea that you get the child when you want it. And please ASAP. Same about the number of children. And it’s more often than not the long awaited child. At that point people had a long time picturing their future family. So those children are under a lot of pressure and many parents have a hard time stepping away from this dream into reality. Parents making sure the child gets into certain school or activities, trying to influence friendships, job choices…… 

I think allowing it, would not significantly increase abortions because of sex or massive gender selection actions in the IFV department. At least in well doing post industrialised nations (and they are definitely the ones being more cautious about ethical questions in those fields). But I absolutely get why someone would reject it. I can personally think it’s wrong and question the motives of the ones that do, but that’s no reason to make it impossible. My subjective feeling is not the measure for the norm.

[theotherelise]

I have no problem with people who have to resort to IVF for medical reasons selecting the sex of the embryo they implant. Even when you have a PGS normal embryo, your chances of implantation success is about 50-60%. If implantation occurs, your miscarriage risk at that point is about 10%. You already have to wade into a lot of decisions that people who conceive spontaneously do not have to consider. 

I chose not to do an injectable IUI because I didn't want to increase my risk for high order multiples and then have to face the question of selective reduction. I had an infertility friend who triggered and inseminated via IUI during an injectable cycle where she had 6 mature follicles. She didn't get pregnant that time, but did the next cycle with twins after having 4 follicles. (FYI, each follicle of a certain size is assumed to contain a mature egg). 

I then chose to only implant one embryo because the complications from twins is soooo much higher. But when I had a subchorionic hemorrhage after a successful embryo transfer and thought I was miscarrying, my husband and I said we'd do two embryos whenever we were ready to transfer again because we so desperately wanted something to stick.

People who can conceive spontaneously make all kinds of decisions about wanting a fall baby or wanting children spaced a certain way or having exactly how many children they want when they want. You don't get to make those decisions when you can't conceive that way. So choosing to implant a male embryo or female embryo just doesn't feel like a big deal. I didn't pick, but I have no problem with those who have.

As for the very very very small number of people who have voluntarily gone through IVF only to select for sex, I think it's best handled by reproductive endocrinologists not taking on patients who don't have medical need for IVF due to infertility or same sex family planning.

I'm just one perspective on this from going through infertility. And my story is one that included a healthy biological child and the immense luck of banked embryos. Everyone's story is different and their choices do not have to be mine to be valid.

[Smee]

I think if IVF was easier and cheaper, then I'd have more of a problem with people going through it for sex selection. As it stands, that shit sounds BRUTAL and costs a fortune, so I can't imagine many people would make that decision whimsically. If they're already going through IVF for other reasons then yeah, implant whichever embryo you want. The people I know who have been through IVF very very much want a baby at the end of it, so if they said "implant the girl" and the girl didn't stick, they're not going to be throwing out boy embryos just because they're boys.

[breakfree]

On 10/18/2021 at 1:31 PM, CarrotCake said:

In the Netherlands they are not allowed to give away the sex with the NIPT. Basically, you can know about all their chromosomes except for the X/Y-ones.

It is to avoid people choosing abortion based on the sex of the baby. It's sick that it has to be taken into account but I'm glad they do. After 13 weeks you can still get an abortion of course, but the process is different, it is not as easy anymore.

I live in the Netherlands and was actually told it's to stop people from getting the test for non medical reasons (i.e. to get the NIPT to find out the sex because they are curious, not because they are actually concerned about chromosomal abnormalities).

[CarrotCake]

17 hours ago, breakfree said:

I live in the Netherlands and was actually told it's to stop people from getting the test for non medical reasons (i.e. to get the NIPT to find out the sex because they are curious, not because they are actually concerned about chromosomal abnormalities).

Why would that be an issue? You have to pay for it yourself anyway so I don’t see why the reason behind it matters.

[just_ordinary]

On 10/23/2021 at 11:21 AM, Smee said:

I think if IVF was easier and cheaper, then I'd have more of a problem with people going through it for sex selection. As it stands, that shit sounds BRUTAL and costs a fortune, so I can't imagine many people would make that decision whimsically. If they're already going through IVF for other reasons then yeah, implant whichever embryo you want. The people I know who have been through IVF very very much want a baby at the end of it, so if they said "implant the girl" and the girl didn't stick, they're not going to be throwing out boy embryos just because they're boys.

If someone is desperate enough to go through with it just because they want a specific sex I think there is something else going on anyway. Even they didn’t have to pay for the whole thing (medication, harvesting, storing, fertilising, implantation, follow up) it is just no joke physically and mentally. If you are willing to put yourself through it, by all means. I highly doubt it would be an option for many people even if they didn’t have to think about the cost. Especially as the success rate for a healthy baby is still not that great.

Edited October 25, 2021 by just_ordinary

[GreenBeans]

On 10/18/2021 at 1:31 PM, CarrotCake said:

In the Netherlands they are not allowed to give away the sex with the NIPT. Basically, you can know about all their chromosomes except for the X/Y-ones.

It is to avoid people choosing abortion based on the sex of the baby. It's sick that it has to be taken into account but I'm glad they do. After 13 weeks you can still get an abortion of course, but the process is different, it is not as easy anymore.

Here (Germany) you are told the result of the NIPT immediately, except for the sex. But you can choose to be told the sex at 14 weeks (when abortion would not be allowed anymore).

We did not care whether we’d have a boy or girl (either would have been fine for us), but still wanted to know because were both curious. Not due to gender stereotypes, at all. We didn’t get anything in pink or blue. And it still didn’t feel like an actual baby at that point, being told the sex did not change that for me. But it did make choosing a name easier, because we could focus on one sex.

 I can’t imagine aborting a child due to it having the “wrong” sex, but it is a reality in many countries, unfortunately.

[crancraz]

I’m really curious how much of a problem aborting a fetus because of sec really is in these western countries. Does it happen to the extent that it needs to be legislated? Probably every once and a while, it happens. But I have a really hard time believe droves of German and Dutch women are seeking abortions because of fetal sex.

Honestly, it seems a bit of a reactionary, racist response to non-white immigrants from cultures. 

I’m also interested re: genetic vs fetal sec aspect. Most of the conditions the NIPT looks for are not inherited but rather genetic flukes that randomly occur. I had a NIPT for my last three pregnancies and while I was most vocally excited to find out the sex, I also was quietly very happy that there were no major genetic problems that would impact the baby’s compatibility with life. I just didn’t talk about that as much  as the sex because, woah, people do not want to talk about fears of genetic abnormalities. They want to know if you’re having a girl or a boy. But that doesn’t mean the genetic information isn’t worth sharing, too. 

Edited October 26, 2021 by crancraz

[medimus]

1 hour ago, crancraz said:

I’m really curious how much of a problem aborting a fetus because of sec really is in these western countries. Does it happen to the extent that it needs to be legislated? Probably every once and a while, it happens. But I have a really hard time believe droves of German and Dutch women are seeking abortions because of fetal sex.

Honestly, it seems a bit of a reactionary, racist response to non-white immigrants from cultures. 

I’m also interested re: genetic vs fetal sec aspect. Most of the conditions the NIPT looks for are not inherited but rather genetic flukes that randomly occur. I had a NIPT for my last three pregnancies and while I was most vocally excited to find out the sex, I also was quietly very happy that there were no major genetic problems that would impact the baby’s compatibility with life. I just didn’t talk about that as much  as the sex because, woah, people do not want to talk about fears of genetic abnormalities. They want to know if you’re having a girl or a boy. But that doesn’t mean the genetic information isn’t worth sharing, too. 

All of my friends had it to check for genetic conditions, it just tells you the sex as well. And I'm really not seeing how it is racist to have laws against sex selection of the foetus

[Irishy]

1 hour ago, crancraz said:

I’m really curious how much of a problem aborting a fetus because of sec really is in these western countries. Does it happen to the extent that it needs to be legislated? Probably every once and a while, it happens. But I have a really hard time believe droves of German and Dutch women are seeking abortions because of fetal sex.

Honestly, it seems a bit of a reactionary, racist response to non-white immigrants from cultures. 

 

I really agree. I also think this narrative is pushed into the public consciousness by the anti choice crowd. Same with the other extreme what ifs, like abortion at 39 weeks etc etc etc. These things are rare at best. It all comes down to trusting women. Trust women, we are not murderous shallow monsters. 

[just_ordinary]

19 minutes ago, Irishy said:

I really agree. I also think this narrative is pushed into the public consciousness by the anti choice crowd. Same with the other extreme what ifs, like abortion at 39 weeks etc etc etc. These things are rare at best. It all comes down to trusting women. Trust women, we are not murderous shallow monsters. 

While I absolutely agree, I don’t think the argument that things are rare and women can be trusted and are not murderous shallow monsters is not really good enough to me. 95% of humans can be trusted and are are not murderous shallow monsters, we still have tons of laws to make rare deviations from normal behaviour illegal and punishable. 

I do think ethic boards can come up with better arguments why it’s no problem to know the sex as early as possible and still have somewhat easy access to abortion. Will there be babies aborted because of their sex? Probably. Will it be a problem in a scale that societies/laws should maybe intervene? Very probably not. Especially when most of those babies are wanted, because men and women are educated and have good access to contraceptives.

Edited October 26, 2021 by just_ordinary

[Irishy]

9 minutes ago, just_ordinary said:

While I absolutely agree, I don’t think the argument that things are rare and women can be trusted and are not murderous shallow monsters is not really good enough to me. 95% of humans can be trusted and are are not murderous shallow monsters, we still have tons of laws to make rare deviations from normal behaviour illegal and punishable. 

I do think ethic boards can come up with better arguments why it’s no problem to know the sex as early as possible and still have somewhat easy access to abortion. Will there be babies aborted because of their sex? Probably. Will it be a problem in a scale that societies/laws should maybe intervene? Very probably not. Especially when most of those babies are wanted, because men and women are educated and have good access to contraceptives.

I think 5% is a high estimate for potential deviance or misuse of abortion care. A woman’s reasoning for abortion is personal to her and not my business. I believe the decision should be between a woman and her doctor and not legislated for. Doctors already fall under the remit of ethics boards in their practice and for me, that is enough control. 

[Marly]

50 minutes ago, Irishy said:

I really agree. I also think this narrative is pushed into the public consciousness by the anti choice crowd. Same with the other extreme what ifs, like abortion at 39 weeks etc etc etc. These things are rare at best. It all comes down to trusting women. Trust women, we are not murderous shallow monsters. 

While I agree very much with this, to trust women, when it comes to aborting because of sex I feel that this might be a male/patriarchy issue. Male babies are still considered more desirable then females in many cultures, and it might very well be the father who is pushing for aborting a female fetus. I understand that men pushing women to have an abortion is always something to be taken into account, and I definitely do not think that it's a reason to ban/limit abortion. I am 100% in favor of legal abortions. I do trust women.
I don't trust the patriarchy though. Still, not a reason to ban abortion, and I also personally don't see a problem with people finding out the sex of their baby with the NIPT test. But, at the same time, it is something to think about.

I know that in my country, the 'abortion because of sex of fetus' narrative is pushed very much by the (fundamentalist) religious crowd. They see it as the beginning of a sliding slope, the beginning of the 'customizable baby', where people can play god by selecting their fetus for hair/eye color, sex, genetic defects, length, skin color, etc. This is of course a thinly veiled argument against abortion as a whole, or at least an argument for very strict regulations and limitations regarding abortion. 

Edited October 26, 2021 by Marly
spelling

[GreenBeans]

4 hours ago, crancraz said:

I’m really curious how much of a problem aborting a fetus because of sec really is in these western countries. Does it happen to the extent that it needs to be legislated? Probably every once and a while, it happens. But I have a really hard time believe droves of German and Dutch women are seeking abortions because of fetal sex.

Honestly, it seems a bit of a reactionary, racist response to non-white immigrants from cultures. 

I don’t think it has anything to do with immigrants. German legislation in general is very strict when it comes to these ethical questions, and I think this is due to Germany’s history. 

[Sabine]

12 hours ago, Marly said:

While I agree very much with this, to trust women, when it comes to aborting because of sex I feel that this might be a male/patriarchy issue. Male babies are still considered more desirable then females in many cultures, and it might very well be the father who is pushing for aborting a female fetus. I understand that men pushing women to have an abortion is always something to be taken into account, and I definitely do not think that it's a reason to ban/limit abortion. I am 100% in favor of legal abortions. I do trust women.
I don't trust the patriarchy though. Still, not a reason to ban abortion, and I also personally don't see a problem with people finding out the sex of their baby with the NIPT test. But, at the same time, it is something to think about.

I know that in my country, the 'abortion because of sex of fetus' narrative is pushed very much by the (fundamentalist) religious crowd. They see it as the beginning of a sliding slope, the beginning of the 'customizable baby', where people can play god by selecting their fetus for hair/eye color, sex, genetic defects, length, skin color, etc. This is of course a thinly veiled argument against abortion as a whole, or at least an argument for very strict regulations and limitations regarding abortion. 

China and India have a huge problem in the future - already now to some extend, insofar as they have a huge surplus of men compared to women. So essentially this will cause a problem further down the road when these males would like to partner and have families and children. 

And of course in a world where women are essentially nothing much of worth, but rather just something that is needed to procreate, while Men are indispensible and valuable, i can totes see a women choosing to birth the child that will keep her in good standing with her inlaws and husband whilst aborting the female fetus that will just be another useless eater. 

(useless eater, i term from my childhood - women were useless eaters as they would marry away and thus were only a cost to the family they were born in, similar with education for women, that also was considered a waste for the same reasons)

Edited October 26, 2021 by Sabine

[Sullie06]

Re: Miscarriages. I've had 3. One at 9 weeks, one at 13 weeks and one at about 6 weeks. My first two losses I had D&C's with as they were missed miscarriages and therefore had genetic testing done. We knew the gender of those fetus' so we did name them as it helped with the grief process for me. The third was my daughter's twin, I had what they called vanishing twin syndrome so on early ultrasounds there were two sac's with fetal poles but one dissolved by later first trimester. That loss was less devastating than the prior two because there was never a heartbeat. 

Re: Infertility. My first miscarriage was my first pregnancy. I then suffered from Unexplained Secondary Infertility and it took almost 3 years to conceive our son.  I did 9 medicated rounds of IUI, 3 with injectable meds and never got pregnant. We had zero IVF coverage so we decided to look into adoption but the month after my IUI I fell pregnant with my son. I'm thankful we never had to go through IVF because watching my good friend go through it now is devastating. She's done 4 rounds, only had one pregnancy and it ended in miscarriage.  Her clinic has very strict rules. They will only implant 1, possibly two with special permission, embryo's per cycle. They also require genetic testing for all embryo's before transfer and will not transfer any embryo with any genetic markers. My friend's very first and only surviving embryo during round one had genetic marker's for Down's and her and her husband wanted to implant but the office said they cannot. I don't know if it's a state rule or not. Because they do genetic testing they know the sex of all of their embryos but they chose not to be told 

[zee_four]

On 10/11/2021 at 9:06 AM, Sullie06 said:

I feel so awful for them. I've had 3 miscarriages, it's so hard. I hope that they are able to heal and move forward, however they chose to. 

I saw both your posts here and wanted to give you a giant online hug. :HUG:

I've had two miscarriages in the last 2 years and they were both heartbreaking, especially the first that happened at about 15 weeks after a particularly violent two days with my no ex who was also the father. The most recent one was last month and much earlier but hard in its own way. Especially since I'm at the age where all my friends, from growing up, from high school, from college, etc. have gotten married and are having kids. The hardest has been those who gave birth close to my due date (the first was due on my birthday) or are pregnant now around the same time. I have my dogs and new kitten, and get the chabce5 talk to my 8 year old son who lives thousands of miles away with my ex's parents.

He's been with them since he was about 2- 2 1/2 when I was struggling after my ex, his dad, walked out 2 days before our wedding and just cut off contact leaving me in an apartment I couldn't afford on my own, struggling with PPD for over a year on top of my BP1 and more which led me to relapse and I knew I couldn't raise him in the state I was in and when my mom couldn't because of her own mental health issues I approached my exs parents. I got clean but the mental health stuff took much longer and even though I'm finally in a place to parent, for a lot of reasons involving my shitty ex who is in no way involved in our son's life, I can't. But he's healthy, happy and stable with memaw and papa so that's most important. So I have a child and adore him but want to have more children that I can raise and take care of and be in their lives more than just FaceTime once a week max. 

Then when I read stories women facing infertility share so bravely I count my blessings for my son no matter how little I'm in his life. I'm 33 and for the first time freaking out about my fertility which is silly. It's so ridiculous how the world judges single women past a certain age and women who aren't mothers past a certain age.

I wish I could help you in your journey, at the very least I'm always here if you need someone not in your regular life to talk to about anything related to miscarriages, fertility issues and children. I haven't gone through anything similar outside of miscarriages and there's no way I'll ever understand your feelings dealing with any of it, but I'm a good non judgemental listener for any conceivable issue. Stay strong! ♡

[Fundyrunner]

Regarding sex selection in IVF, generally I wouldn't want to see that except in rare situations. I have a friend who is a carrier for a very rare disorder that only expresses itself in males. Standard genetic testing of embryos would not pick up the disorder. Logically I could see her choosing to only select female embryos, but she has two healthy children and one severely disabled one, so no more babies for their family. 

There are other, less expensive ways than IVF to increase your chance of having a preferred gender (e.g. IUI with special treatment to sperm).

[Sullie06]

10 hours ago, zee_four said:

I saw both your posts here and wanted to give you a giant online hug. :HUG:

I've had two miscarriages in the last 2 years and they were both heartbreaking, especially the first that happened at about 15 weeks after a particularly violent two days with my no ex who was also the father. The most recent one was last month and much earlier but hard in its own way. Especially since I'm at the age where all my friends, from growing up, from high school, from college, etc. have gotten married and are having kids. The hardest has been those who gave birth close to my due date (the first was due on my birthday) or are pregnant now around the same time. I have my dogs and new kitten, and get the chabce5 talk to my 8 year old son who lives thousands of miles away with my ex's parents.

He's been with them since he was about 2- 2 1/2 when I was struggling after my ex, his dad, walked out 2 days before our wedding and just cut off contact leaving me in an apartment I couldn't afford on my own, struggling with PPD for over a year on top of my BP1 and more which led me to relapse and I knew I couldn't raise him in the state I was in and when my mom couldn't because of her own mental health issues I approached my exs parents. I got clean but the mental health stuff took much longer and even though I'm finally in a place to parent, for a lot of reasons involving my shitty ex who is in no way involved in our son's life, I can't. But he's healthy, happy and stable with memaw and papa so that's most important. So I have a child and adore him but want to have more children that I can raise and take care of and be in their lives more than just FaceTime once a week max. 

Then when I read stories women facing infertility share so bravely I count my blessings for my son no matter how little I'm in his life. I'm 33 and for the first time freaking out about my fertility which is silly. It's so ridiculous how the world judges single women past a certain age and women who aren't mothers past a certain age.

I wish I could help you in your journey, at the very least I'm always here if you need someone not in your regular life to talk to about anything related to miscarriages, fertility issues and children. I haven't gone through anything similar outside of miscarriages and there's no way I'll ever understand your feelings dealing with any of it, but I'm a good non judgemental listener for any conceivable issue. Stay strong! ♡

Thank you so much for your kind words. And I'm so sorry to hear about your own struggle. You did what was best for you son and that's what makes you a great mother. I hope as he grows up you are able to foster a close relationship with him. And I hope you are blessed with more children in the future. I agree the toughest time is when those around you are pregnant/due the same time. My oldest would have been 6 months older than my best friend's oldest and I still feel a loss even though it's been 10  years. 

Pregnancy loss and Infertility are such a difficult thing and still so taboo to talk about. People just don't want to hear about it, for many reasons, but I feel we need to talk about it more. It's a medical condition, and it's not just physically devastating but emotionally too. 

[just_ordinary]

8 hours ago, Fundyrunner said:

Regarding sex selection in IVF, generally I wouldn't want to see that except in rare situations. I have a friend who is a carrier for a very rare disorder that only expresses itself in males. Standard genetic testing of embryos would not pick up the disorder. Logically I could see her choosing to only select female embryos, but she has two healthy children and one severely disabled one, so no more babies for their family. 

There are other, less expensive ways than IVF to increase your chance of having a preferred gender (e.g. IUI with special treatment to sperm).

Is it any different though? The underlying motivation (IUI sperm treatment not the avoiding a genetic defect) is just the same.

[NakedKnees]

20 hours ago, Fundyrunner said:

Regarding sex selection in IVF, generally I wouldn't want to see that except in rare situations. I have a friend who is a carrier for a very rare disorder that only expresses itself in males. Standard genetic testing of embryos would not pick up the disorder. Logically I could see her choosing to only select female embryos, but she has two healthy children and one severely disabled one, so no more babies for their family. 

There are other, less expensive ways than IVF to increase your chance of having a preferred gender (e.g. IUI with special treatment to sperm).

I was thinking exactly this for a situation in which I can see sex-selective abortion being ethically appropriate (although so much about abortion and ethics in general is subjective regardless). The other situation I could picture it being an appropriate (albeit very sad) choice is an abusive family situation where one sex might "have it worse" than the other sex. Also, it seems like it would be hard to prove what someone's intention behind their abortion was, much of the time. 

I strongly suspect sex-selective abortion is in reality very rare, just like using abortion as birth control is. It does seem like the domain of between-birthing-people-and-their-doctors though... there are just too many scenarios to paint it with a wide brush.

Not to mention, in addition to fears of legislating against sex-selective abortion being a tad xenophobic, I would say it seems a tad transphobic to me as well. Or gender essentialist? Not sure, haha, but hear me out: if we're trying to move past the idea of chromosomes/genitals determining gender, it seems a bit regressive to legislate against abortion access on a basis that might strengthen the legal standing of sex chromosomes as the determinant of gender. 

I hope I am communicating this idea clearly. I just think applying a feminist or anti-patriarchy lens still leads to multiple interpretations on this one. I don't want to sound naive though. I get it that the fear is that XX-chromosome fetuses are unfairly targeted.

I wouldn't be in favor of legislating around sex-selective abortion. It is an interesting to read all of these different perspectives on it though.

[kmachete14]

My husband and I did genetic testing on the suggestion of my OBGYN when I was around 8 weeks pregnant (I think this was my second appointment). The test was super expensive but we called the private company and got the bill reduced to $240. A "side effect" of the genetic testing of my blood was that it revealed the baby's sex (due to the absence or presence of a Y chromosome floating around in my blood). So at 10 weeks, we knew we were having a daughter.

At this point, since we lived in Massachusetts, I could have easily gotten an abortion. I had only known I was pregnant for about a month and had no connection/bond to the child, didn't look pregnant at all, and no one else knew we were pregnant besides by best friend. 

I am curious what the doctor's response would have been if I had an elective abortion after she gave us the news, and if anyone has ever done that. 

Obviously I did NOT do that and was happy to have a baby with no genetic issues likely. 

[OyToTheVey]

I'm Jewish so Tay Sachs is always something we test for. I can't imagine voluntarily having a baby that you know will be gone before their 3rd birthday. It's an awful disability. There are reform rabbis actually won't marry you if both people are carriers. It's part of pre-marriage counseling. I'm not going to mention the fundie Jews that ignore all health warnings. That's a completely different topic.

[JuanitaBanana]

Derick just posted that today is the 8 year anniversary of when they first started dating and he also mentioned an unchaperoned motorcycle ride and how they had a whole week to "enjoy more intimate time together".