Jinjer 57: The Seemingly Infinite Seminary Rolls On

[Pecansforeveryone]

I actually appreciate the idea of being baptized when you are old enough to choose it for yourself. I hate the shame, fear, and guilt many Evangelical churches put on salvation. However, I would be miffed joining a Lutheran church at 40 having to be baptized if I hadn't been before while someone else who was baptized as a baby got credit for that. 

[Mama Mia]

The baptizing is interesting given the theological difference between Jeremy and JB, and that those are one of the main reasons given for JB being hesitant to allow them to court. I don’t quite get it - but to them it’s pronounced differences in their views of Christianity and even who goes to heaven. So getting baptized in her new church might be a big thing. In her Instagram post she shows one photo of a bunch of her younger siblings watching her baptism on a screen in the TTH. The shot is from the side, the oldest sibling there is Justin and Claire ( I think, might be one of those other young adult boys too) ..l.wonder what her parents think? 

[livinginthelight]

One thing I really like about infant baptism is the emphasis on God's grace and love freely given. The infant literally has done nothing to earn God's love, but God loves and embraces the child as God's own.

To insist on re-baptism as an adult is to twist this beautiful ritual into a works-based theology, i.e., " you can only get into heaven if you do THIS." This implies that somehow the act of faith of our parents didn't "stick", and also that we must earn our way into heaven by our action of getting baptized. And if we can earn our way into heaven, what do these people believe Jesus did on the cross?

Now, some people WANT to make a public proclamation of their faith and be re-baptized as adults. I have no problem with this, as long as it's understood it's not necessary for salvation. It just gets me riled up when people are guilted into going through it again.

(I'm not addressing the question of if I think baptism is necessary for salvation. I'm merely looking at it through the eyes of Jinger's experience.)

[Coconut Flan]

It's all back to people stuck on their narrow  perspective that their way is the right way without accepting the wide range of Christian belief and practice.  

[Rosie]

4 hours ago, EmiSue said:

So this really bothers me. I was baptized as an infant in my the Lutheran church several members of my family belonged to. My parents aren't very religious but I always connected to religion much more than they did. In high school I attended a friend's evangelical church and the pastor put a big emphasis on baptism after you "accepted Christ as your lord and savior" by praying a very specific prayer (any evangelicals or ex-vangelicals will know what I mean). Because I prayed this prayer and developed my own sense of God as a teen, my pastor convinced me to be rebaptized, which I did at 18, just before leaving for college. My parents weren't happy, feeling like it was a rejection of them and of my aunt and uncle who were my godparents. I didn't see it that way but felt like it was what God wanted.

Twenty years later, still a Christian but back to the "mainline" Protestant realm, I see this as a control move. The pastor could have seen all my past religious experiences as a whole and as building toward my particular understanding of God, but instead imposed a binary of our way is better than their way. Multiple mainline pastors have said to me that this evangelical pastor distorted the idea of baptism and should have only insisted on it if I'd never been baptized at all.

And in my view, this is one more controlling dick-move on Jeremy's part, preying on Jinger's insecurities to mold her into what he thinks she should be. But I wouldn't expect anything less from him.

I grew up in the Catholic church and later joined a Lutheran congregation.  Both denominations view baptism as a sacrament conferred by God through His grace, and not something the baptized "does."  It's a gift.  Catholics and Lutherans therefore do not subscribe to "baptism of the believer," as e.g. Baptists do.  Moreover, we believe in "ONE baptism for the forgiveness of sin," for which reason if you change denominations as I did, you are not "re-baptized."

As a parent who raised her children in a Lutheran congregation, I would be positively livid if any pastor convinced my child to be "rebaptized," which is not a thing in our brand of Christianity and in fact runs counter to it.  The nerve of that - outrageous.

/rant

3 hours ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

I actually appreciate the idea of being baptized when you are old enough to choose it for yourself. I hate the shame, fear, and guilt many Evangelical churches put on salvation. However, I would be miffed joining a Lutheran church at 40 having to be baptized if I hadn't been before while someone else who was baptized as a baby got credit for that. 

It sounds like a church that practices "baptism of the believer" would be a good fit for you.  The Lutheran church teaches that God initiates His relationship with us, and not vice-versa.  Therefore, baptism is a gift; it's not something you "profess" as you accept Jesus as your savior.

 

 

2 hours ago, livinginthelight said:

One thing I really like about infant baptism is the emphasis on God's grace and love freely given. The infant literally has done nothing to earn God's love, but God loves and embraces the child as God's own.

To insist on re-baptism as an adult is to twist this beautiful ritual into a works-based theology, i.e., " you can only get into heaven if you do THIS." This implies that somehow the act of faith of our parents didn't "stick", and also that we must earn our way into heaven by our action of getting baptized. And if we can earn our way into heaven, what do these people believe Jesus did on the cross?

Now, some people WANT to make a public proclamation of their faith and be re-baptized as adults. I have no problem with this, as long as it's understood it's not necessary for salvation. It just gets me riled up when people are guilted into going through it again.

(I'm not addressing the question of if I think baptism is necessary for salvation. I'm merely looking at it through the eyes of Jinger's experience.)

I completely agree.

When I chose a Lutheran congregation as a Catholic, I renewed my confirmation vows.  That's a different animal from baptism, which confers God's grace on the infant.  I love the emphasis on God' grace and love as gifts, too.

[HereticHick]

The cynic in me thinks of this like Michelle & Jim Bob's vow renewal-- just another staged event to provide media content.

 

And yes, Jinger may have been baptized (yet again), possibly by her (non-ordained) father when the family went to Israel. From the tv episode recap:

"The Duggars then head to the Jordan River, where Jim Bob, Grandma, and eight of the kids are re-baptized. Amy is baptized for the first time and is thrilled to have her Uncle Jim Bob do the honors."

[SassyPants]

8 minutes ago, HereticHick said:

The cynic in me thinks of this like Michelle & Jim Bob's vow renewal-- just another staged event to provide media content.

 

And yes, Jinger may have been baptized (yet again), possibly by her (non-ordained) father when the family went to Israel. From the tv episode recap:

"The Duggars then head to the Jordan River, where Jim Bob, Grandma, and eight of the kids are re-baptized. Amy is baptized for the first time and is thrilled to have her Uncle Jim Bob do the honors."

If she was re-baptized in the Jordan(and she would have been older than 11), this would be her 3rd time being baptized. As my now deceased MIL used to say “save us.”

[nolongerIFBx]

Baptist theology says that you must be baptized after salvation. Jinger's baptism at 11 was nothing more than getting wet (per Baptist theology) because she had not yet accepted Christ as her Savior (according to her own words). So in the eyes of Baptist theology, she had never been baptized. It is not considered part of or proof of salvation. It is a way to profess your faith and obey the command to be baptized. If someone accepts Christ and is never baptized, it does not mean that they aren't going to heaven, because salvation is not dependent on works.

Some people wish to do it more than once. Whatever. I was offered the opportunity to be re-baptized in the Jordan but declined. I was baptized twice, once after I accepted Christ as a child and once as a teenager when I questioned my faith to be sure that I was baptized after salvation whether that was as a child or a teen. I do now consider myself as having accepted Christ as a child. The questioning was caused by constant psychological bombardment from the pulpit/religious abuse. 

Christening doesn't count as baptism in Baptist theology because immersion doesn't occur. It also usually occurs when someone is too young to accept Christ as Savior and in that case doesn't happen after salvation so isn't baptism.

Some IFBx churches take it even farther and insist you must be baptized in a Baptist church/by a Baptist pastor. They have no Biblical argument for that. IMO they just want to further inflate their already padded "numbers" so they can brag to their preacher friends.

[patsymae]

9 hours ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

I actually appreciate the idea of being baptized when you are old enough to choose it for yourself. I hate the shame, fear, and guilt many Evangelical churches put on salvation. However, I would be miffed joining a Lutheran church at 40 having to be baptized if I hadn't been before while someone else who was baptized as a baby got credit for that. 

In some churches, and I believe the Lutheran Church is one of them, baptism is a sacrament. It's not something you get "credit" for, and it's something you need to do once (IIRC, liturgical churches will accept a Baptism from other liturgical churches) in order to become part of the spiritual community. Churches that practice infant baptism accept infant baptisms (from some denominations) but would baptize any unbaptized adult that becomes a convert. It's just a whole different approach.

4 hours ago, SassyPants said:

If she was re-baptized in the Jordan(and she would have been older than 11), this would be her 3rd time being baptized. As my now deceased MIL used to say “save us.”

And save us, and save us, and save us ....

[LanaBanana]

It's interesting to me that Jinger isn't mentioning the time she was baptized by JB in the Jordan River. Does she not consider that to be a legitimate baptism or does Grace Church not? Hell, maybe she didn't want to say this was a third baptism for whatever reason. It's probably a mix of all three options.

[Nutella Ace]

Googling around it sounds like the 8 children that were re-baptized in the Jordan River were Joe, Joy, Jed, Jeremiah, Jason, James, Justin, and Jackson (but I didn't rewatch the whole episode to confirm).

[byzant]

Ahh of course why waste Jordan river water on non  penis holders; s

[JanasTattooParlor]

My husband’s mother’s family is Catholic and he and his sister both went through confirmation and were confirmed in the Catholic Church. However, my SIL has had a terrible relationship with her mom and started attending a nondenominational church when she was about 18. She made the decision to get rebaptized later at 20 because she knew she truly never believed in the Catholic doctrine and wanted to be baptized into a set of beliefs she agreed with. This made my MIL completely fly off the rails and say that her daughter was going to hell for being baptized twice and how God laughed at those who did so. In a case like my SIL’s I can see why the want for a new baptism was there, and maybe Jinger felt the same way. She aligns and accepts more of Jeremy’s church’s beliefs then the ones she was originally baptized with and then struggled with until she was 14, and because she grew up Baptist, she thinks that she needs to be baptized again to affirm her new beliefs. I do wonder what her parents think though since they’ve never had any other of their kids get rebaptized. 

Edited September 10, 2021 by JanasTattooParlor

[CanadianMamam]

2 hours ago, byzant said:

Ahh of course why waste Jordan river water on non  penis holders; s

And Joy the tomboy. 

[byzant]

11 minutes ago, CanadianMamam said:

And Joy the tomboy. 

Gosh totally missed her! Sorry but that's also true

[fundiefan]

So she lied all those years when she said she was a perfectly perfect Christian. She allowed herself to be baptized at 11 - no doubt because daddy wanted it - but at 14 had her come to Jesus moment. Since 14 she's been...what? Floundering? Not really Christian? Not holy enough for Jesus?

Now that she is baptized again, what is different now than the last....however many years between 14 & now? Or even between 11 & now? 

If she were in an accident & died last year, before she was baptized again, would she have gone to heaven or not? Did the first baptism not count for anything? Did Jesus know then that she wasn't really into his magic & hadn't accepted him yet? What did Jesus do when she was 14 & really got down with all his magic? Did he throw a private party for himself that now, fianally...but not quite yet because she has to be baptized again? 

I don't understand religion at all. 

[Idlewild]

Whatever her reasons for doing this, Jinger has got people talking. Her humpers approve, Hillary Spivey was watching and approved and for the Vuolos they need to maintain some sort of vaguely Christian centred interest to remain relevant. 

[Travelfan]

1 hour ago, fundiefan said:

So she lied all those years when she said she was a perfectly perfect Christian. She allowed herself to be baptized at 11 - no doubt because daddy wanted it - but at 14 had her come to Jesus moment. Since 14 she's been...what? Floundering? Not really Christian? Not holy enough for Jesus?

Now that she is baptized again, what is different now than the last....however many years between 14 & now? Or even between 11 & now? 

If she were in an accident & died last year, before she was baptized again, would she have gone to heaven or not? Did the first baptism not count for anything? Did Jesus know then that she wasn't really into his magic & hadn't accepted him yet? What did Jesus do when she was 14 & really got down with all his magic? Did he throw a private party for himself that now, fianally...but not quite yet because she has to be baptized again? 

I don't understand religion at all. 

I don’t know about all Christian sects but I do know all about the one Jinjer is in.  
Former pastors wife here and my husband is a huge follower of John MacArthur (the church they attend and where she was baptized).  For them baptism has NOTHING to do with going to heaven or hell. Baptism is simply you standing up before your friends and family and letting them publicly know that this is what you believe, that you have trusted in Jesus for your salvation. Baptism is something you do after you get saved. It is also not required. If you never get baptized you still go to heaven (as long as you have accepted Jesus as your savior). Most choose to be baptized because it’s something god “wants” them to do, he died publicly for you now you stand publicly and show the world you follow him kind of a thing. Also being baptized alone does nothing to get you to heaven. So if you never really believe and just get baptized due to pressure or were baptized as an infant or whatever other reason it was totally for nothing.  Baptism does not save in any way it’s just you making public that you believe and identify with Christ. It would not be uncommon for someone who grew up in church and was baptized when they were young to get a little older and realize they really hadn’t understood what it was all about when they were younger and now that they have more of their own faith instead of just believing because it’s what their parents taught them that they may want to be baptized again, realizing they didn’t fully comprehend the experience as a child. For this reason my husband really did not like to baptise children.  He preferred they were mid teen and up. He would if they were very insistent that this was their own decision and something they wanted. We also never pushed our own children to be baptized. 
 

A few years ago I went through a deconversion and am now an atheist. But still I have 40+ years of being raised in this church drilled into me, so I know all the “answers” according to them 🤣

[QuiverFullofBooks]

Is it just me, or do the Duggars watching the livestream look sad? It looks like Justin is consoling Jana.

[Mama Mia]

2 hours ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

Is it just me, or do the Duggars watching the livestream look sad? It looks like Justin is consoling Jana.

Ha! I could see it that way, if that was Jana —- but that’s Justin and his wife Claire lol. Definitely changes the feeling 

 

[NotQuiteMotY]

On 9/9/2021 at 9:41 AM, Giraffe said:

Some belief systems have a “one and done” teaching on baptism. To me that seems reasonable. I was re-baptized as an adult, too, and it seemed strange even at the time. Are those who are rebaptized encouraged to be rerebaptized when they reach a new “level” of feeling renewed as a Christian? Is there a magic in baptism that is only conveyed upon rebaptism so they need to get rerebaptized later on when they’re feeling even more godly than when they were rebaptized? 

Don't most Christian denominations practice "one and done"? I know my church (Presbyterian) won't insist you be baptized again, even if you're converting from another denomination, as long as you were baptized once in your Christian religion of origin. We may ask for baptism or confirmation if you never were in order to be a full member, but otherwise all we ask is a "letter of transfer" from another church or a "reaffirmation of faith" if you're not attending another first. Even when I got married, in order for the marriage to be recognized by Mr. NQ's Catholic church, I just needed a baptismal certificate, not a specifically Catholic baptismal certificate.

I suspect this has to do with my church's approach to baptism to be less "you need this to save your eternal soul" and more "welcome to the church community, we'll do our best to raise you in knowledge and love of Christ." We put more emphasis on confirmation as the person accepting Jesus and proclaiming him/herself a believer, as that's done when you're older, around the teenage years.

[Bad Wolf]

I seem to remember a rat swimming in the river while they were being baptized.

[sableduck]

I suspect it’s probably very meaningful for Jinger.  I have considered being rebaptized as an adult as well. I was baptized at 11 mostly because the pastor pressured me into it and not because it meant anything to me.  My faith has drastically changed since then and my understanding of baptism is far deeper and more meaningful.  I suspect, knowing Jinger’s faith background, that she feels the same.

Their faith tradition does not believe baptism has any bearing on salvation.  It is simply a public expression of your beliefs.  There are some Protestant denominations who do believe that you are not saved without baptism.  I had one minister tell me that my beloved, saintly, Godly grandmother was in hell because she was never baptized via full immersion. She was never baptized due to physical disabilities making immersion and had been baptized Eastern Orthodox at birth; though she became Protestant much later in life. I said if my grandmother didn’t go to Heaven over something so stupid, I didn’t want any part of God.

[just_ordinary]

What is the stance of later baptising churches on confirmation? Because if I get baptised several times, wouldn’t I need to get confirmed several times as well? Or is that whole part skipped? Because you don’t have to do anything to get christened but to be a full member of a congregation there is normally some time of preparation required. It seems Baptist believes or maybe even just some forms of them in the USA work very different to most mainstream Protestant churches in Europe.

I love the idea behind infant christenings. It’s more about the introduction of the child into the society of Christians (less this specific congregation nowadays), the idea that your parents and godparents will act as spiritual guidance, the welcoming of a new family member….. It’s definitely a one and done thing here. Neither the Protestant (Lutheran, Reformed and U) nor the Catholic Church require a re-christening with each other.

Vowing to actually live the lifestyle is obviously something you can only do much later. But honestly, if you want a somewhat realist idea of accepting Christ you definitely wouldn’t do it before age 16. In general it sounds like you could get re-baptised basically weekly for all it’s worth. Sounds pretty random. 

“Accepting Jesus” is definitely not part of the whole stick here. But we have barely 80.000 Baptist’s in our country, so the rules and ideas of baptism are very unknown and quite far from mainstream religion. 

[louisa05]

On 9/9/2021 at 8:41 AM, Giraffe said:

Some belief systems have a “one and done” teaching on baptism. To me that seems reasonable. I was re-baptized as an adult, too, and it seemed strange even at the time. Are those who are rebaptized encouraged to be rerebaptized when they reach a new “level” of feeling renewed as a Christian? Is there a magic in baptism that is only conveyed upon rebaptism so they need to get rerebaptized later on when they’re feeling even more godly than when they were rebaptized? 

Even the allegedly oh so legalistic Catholic Church doesn’t re-baptize  anyone. If you were baptized with a Trinidadian formula, doesn’t matter how, where or by whom; it counts.