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Remnant Fellowship 19: Leaning on the Everlasting Gwen


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On 8/24/2021 at 10:37 PM, Queen Of Hearts said:

Bob, I am not sure why you are here defending RF and arguing with past RF members who know what they are talking about?

I am not a member and have no ties to the cult but I have followed it for some time.  Everything these past members are saying is true and much of it is easily documented in Gwen's daily devotionals, You Tube videos, writings, etc.  If this all was not accurate there would not be a major miniseries being produced.  

This post would be an example of why I finally jumped on to pose some questions to you all. You say that you are not a member nor do you have any ties yet you think that everything being said by ex members should be taken as the gospel. My exposure is different than yours. I was invited to a wedding and was very impressed. Of course I googled the church and saw the negative press and found this forum. I see what is written by ex members Then those who take what they say as fact add to it, many times with this forum being their only source of information. There is also some friends and family members on here who I’ve seen write a lot of negative stuff but again it seems to me like it comes from their families moving a different direction religiously. They seem to regurgitate negative stuff they read. I don’t see a lot of evidence that they really spent any significant amount of time visiting or talking to actual members. Then finally I’ve seen some friends and family who it appears do visit with their family or friends. Based on their posts they still have good relationships and have had glowing things to say about, as one said not long ago 99% of everyone they have ever met or interacted with, though it appears they still have concerns based on all the negative stuff they have read. That’s kind the category I fall into. I’ve read all the negative stuff but I’ve also been a semi regular visitor. I no longer have concerns but I can’t get past some theology differences at this point. I also can’t deny all the positive things I see. That’s why I jumped on here. To dig deeper into some of the accusations thrown around on here by questioning ideas that are taken as fact on this forum. So far most of my questions have been directed at RF members based on negative things I’ve read. Now I’ve decided to question the other side. I actually don’t take a position on what ex members say. You've probably heard the analogy that if you question 20 witnesses to a car accident you’ll get 20 different perspectives of what happened. I don’t really take a position on what ex members have to say. I can’t personally discount the experience they may have gone through. I wasn’t there. Since I have visited quite a few times I also have witnessed what happy members have to say.  I have witnessed some of their lives up close. The conclusion I’ve come to so far is that the vast majority of those who join Remnant seem to stay and and are happy and then there’s a few for one reason or another had a bad experience and left. As I said in another post that’s pretty normal of any organization. You’re always going to have haters for a multitude of reasons. RF is more susceptible to that because they go against the grain of most churches when it comes to their belief in the Trinity and their differences with what I would call the once saved always saved theology that most churches have. From my church background that puts them in the cult category automatically. I guess that’s why they say don’t talk about religion and politics with friends and family if you want to keep friends and family. 
 

by the way, being New to this form I’m assuming that red number next to the notifications at the bottom means There have been a lot of responses to my questions and or comments. I’m just jumping back on from a few days ago because I had a little bit of time this morning. I wanted to address the question of why I’m on here that was posed in this post.  I don’t have time to look at anything else right now. I also don’t know how some of you have as much time as you do spend on this forum but to each their own. I’ll probably jump back on in a few days and try to answer whatever questions that may have been thrown out to me. Just wanted to make it known that I’m not avoiding any responses that have been made to my questions or comments  

 

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I’m not sure how you can claim you are discounting the experiences of some when you specifically say in this post and other posts that the real problem is the ex members or non members here really just don’t like the theology. Despite the fact that almost all of the issues have been illuminated using direct often multi paragraphs quotes from Gwen

 

also it’s poor form and obviously an attempt to shame and judge those by pointing out you just don’t have the time and how do we have all the time we do?  What purpose did you hope that commentary to serve?

Edited by treemom
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Bob, if you want to prove you aren’t a RF cult member, it is very easy. 
 

~Just admit that Gwen’s diet isn’t The One True and Only Way To Lose Weight. 
 

~Acknowledge that it is wrong and abusive for Gwen to tell people they are living in sin if they lose weight with a program that differs from her’s. 
 

~Acknowledge that telling people that it is acceptable to eat two to three bites of food every 36 hours is not wise nutrition advice. 
 

~Acknowledge that Gwen is terrible for defending people who tortured a child to death. 
 

Someone who isn’t a cult member could acknowledge all those things with ease. Only a brainwashed cult member would struggle to admit these things. 

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47 minutes ago, Bob said:

There is also some friends and family members on here who I’ve seen write a lot of negative stuff but again it seems to me like it comes from their families moving a different direction religiously. T

It is not about them moving a different way direction religiously.  It is about them not being authentic. The happiness that you experience when you visit is not always authentic. That’s the point!  I have spent ALOT of time with RF family and their friends. More than just a wedding or two. I’m not saying that what you are experiencing is wrong. I get it. It seems really awesome. What I (and others here) am trying to tell you is that there is deception and manipulation that causes members to not show their true authentic selves for fear of retribution or ex-communication. I have witnessed it. Once beloved family members who are never spoken of. Best friends who are  no longer around and if you ask about them the subject changes. More than just a few Bob. Many others on this site and beyond have similar experiences.  If you don’t want to heed the warnings of those who have seen the damage that has been done in RF that’s your right.  But trying to convince me that what I have experienced and continue to witness is wrong is absurd. 

 

47 minutes ago, Bob said:

You’re always going to have haters for a multitude of reasons

I know lots of people who have left lots of organizations for various reasons who don’t devote a significant amount of time to “hating” on the organization. You might want to consider the reason that we spend so much time on here might be because what we have experienced and witnessed is so terrible that we want to make sure that others don’t fall victim to the RF schemes. 

47 minutes ago, Bob said:

RF is more susceptible to that because they go against the grain of most churches when it comes to their belief in the Trinity

While I do disagree with a lot of Gwen’s twisted taken-out-of-context Bible teachings, that is not the biggest issue that I have with RF. I think most if not all churches get it wrong at least some of the time in that regard. The biggest issue that I have is that they use the word of God to manipulate and control people to a damaging degree. I have seen it as have many on this forum. My question for you is why do those experiences not count. I hear you saying that you have visited and don’t see it. But people here are telling you that they have lived it and what they experienced is very different from the surface stuff that is seen by visitors. I don’t understand why you are challeging those experiences if you are truly trying to learn more. Usually when I am trying to learn more I listen to someone who has something to say and ask deeper questions instead of defending what I’m trying to learn about. We have asked you several questions but you have yet taken the time to respond. Instead you hop on to tell us more about why you think we are wrong. Perhaps if you really want to learn more you might want to approach from a different angle. But my assumption is that you don’t really want to learn more. 
 

gah!  I said I wasn’t talking to Bob any more. I failed 😞 

Edited by RFfamANON
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49 minutes ago, Bob said:

RF is more susceptible to that because they go against the grain of most churches when it comes to their belief in the Trinity and their differences with what I would call the once saved always saved theology that most churches have. From my church background that puts them in the cult category automatically. I guess that’s why they say don’t talk about religion and politics with friends and family if you want to keep friends and family. 

For many of us, we don’t actually care about that. I personally don’t understand why out of all the horrible things Gwen has done, this is what some people get hung up on. We have video of her praising parents for spending hours hitting a small child! Compared to that why the hell does anyone care about her stance on a confusing theological point?! Bringing it up just gives people like you, Bob, an out to focus on such an unimportant thing while avoiding addressing things that are fairly impossible to defend. Which is exactly what you did. You skipped all the hard questions and chose one that is very easy to address. 
 

I for one don’t think there is anything wrong with not believing in the trinity. It is wrong, though, to use the Bible to shame people for their inability to stick to the diet plan a pastor created. That is one of the reasons people view RF as a cult, not the trinity. If it was just the trinity I doubt we would be discussing RF. 

Edited by formergothardite
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1 hour ago, Bob said:

This post would be an example of why I finally jumped on to pose some questions to you all. You say that you are not a member nor do you have any ties yet you think that everything being said by ex members should be taken as the gospel. My exposure is different than yours. I was invited to a wedding and was very impressed. Of course I googled the church and saw the negative press and found this forum. I see what is written by ex members Then those who take what they say as fact add to it, many times with this forum being their only source of information. There is also some friends and family members on here who I’ve seen write a lot of negative stuff but again it seems to me like it comes from their families moving a different direction religiously. They seem to regurgitate negative stuff they read. I don’t see a lot of evidence that they really spent any significant amount of time visiting or talking to actual members. Then finally I’ve seen some friends and family who it appears do visit with their family or friends. Based on their posts they still have good relationships and have had glowing things to say about, as one said not long ago 99% of everyone they have ever met or interacted with, though it appears they still have concerns based on all the negative stuff they have read. That’s kind the category I fall into. I’ve read all the negative stuff but I’ve also been a semi regular visitor. I no longer have concerns but I can’t get past some theology differences at this point. I also can’t deny all the positive things I see. That’s why I jumped on here. To dig deeper into some of the accusations thrown around on here by questioning ideas that are taken as fact on this forum. So far most of my questions have been directed at RF members based on negative things I’ve read. Now I’ve decided to question the other side. I actually don’t take a position on what ex members say. You've probably heard the analogy that if you question 20 witnesses to a car accident you’ll get 20 different perspectives of what happened. I don’t really take a position on what ex members have to say. I can’t personally discount the experience they may have gone through. I wasn’t there. Since I have visited quite a few times I also have witnessed what happy members have to say.  I have witnessed some of their lives up close. The conclusion I’ve come to so far is that the vast majority of those who join Remnant seem to stay and and are happy and then there’s a few for one reason or another had a bad experience and left. As I said in another post that’s pretty normal of any organization. You’re always going to have haters for a multitude of reasons. RF is more susceptible to that because they go against the grain of most churches when it comes to their belief in the Trinity and their differences with what I would call the once saved always saved theology that most churches have. From my church background that puts them in the cult category automatically. I guess that’s why they say don’t talk about religion and politics with friends and family if you want to keep friends and family. 
 

by the way, being New to this form I’m assuming that red number next to the notifications at the bottom means There have been a lot of responses to my questions and or comments. I’m just jumping back on from a few days ago because I had a little bit of time this morning. I wanted to address the question of why I’m on here that was posed in this post.  I don’t have time to look at anything else right now. I also don’t know how some of you have as much time as you do spend on this forum but to each their own. I’ll probably jump back on in a few days and try to answer whatever questions that may have been thrown out to me. Just wanted to make it known that I’m not avoiding any responses that have been made to my questions or comments  

 

When I was a member, any “semi regular visitor” like you claim you are would have believed I was happy based on observation. Until I started questioning the church, I was completely sure it was the Truth and I was happy. I believed I knew the Truth and I was special. There was always a small voice in the back of my head that I told NO ONE about. Then when I was starting to deconstruct in my faith, I put on a damn good show that I was still happy while I was spiraling apart at the end. It was a shock to most of my friends and family when I left. 
 

You are only going to see what the current members need show and tell you, whereas people like myself have shared the trauma and harm that we came to in Remnant. Also, when you are brainwashed by a cult, there are things that you think are okay, but when you break that spell many people look back and realize all the abuse they unknowingly endured. 
 

If you are truly seeking answers here @Bob, I would start by addressing the multitude of questions that have been posed to you. 
 

lastly I would recommend a thought experiment to you.  Imagine you were raised in a church that you spent 90%+ of your free time at, that your family is at and all of your friends attend. You are told your church has the Truth in a sea of churches that do not have the Truth. You have seen the fruit for years and years. You are taken care of by your fellow church members and by your family. You don’t need to move out when you are an adult when you’re family loves you. You found your spouse at 17 and got married at 18 because it’s true love in God’s Remnant. You start having kids but since you didn’t get an education, you struggle. The church helps you and are now indebted to the church. You start to question the church. You realize that you don’t agree (for whatever reason, doctrine, the emotional and spiritual abuse, the hypocrisy) but you can’t leave. If you leave, your spouse will divorce you. If you leave they will take your kids. If you leave you have no support system because your whole life is Remnant Fellowship. So you know what you do, you put on a happy face and pretend. You try to go back to before you stopped believing and put on your cult mask (because you’ve realized it’s a cult by now) to protect the life and your family. 
 

 Now @Bob do you really think that the person dealing with this struggle would tell you they are? Or anyone struggling with something similar? They will not because they are trying to convince themselves and if they admit to anyone, the brainwashing and the spell begins to break. 
 

anyways, good luck with being a Remnant Member! Since that seems to be the path you are going. I hope for your sake you don’t join but you are already repeating talking points like a pro and adopted the us vs them mentality that is key cult behavior!

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7 hours ago, AmazonGrace said:

JMO she's not wrong about a lot of us having enough stored fat to sustain us over a missed meal, and I think doctors  usually wouldn't be  concerned over occasionally ignored hunger pangs unless it becomes a general pattern that leads to malnutrition. If you're trying purposefully to lose weight you might have to ignore some impulses to eat in any case. 

The growl is largely irrelevant to doctors apart from whether you're following it to unhealthy extremes as a general rule. In the short term whether you're feeling the growl or not when you're eating  wouldn't matter much medically. It's more about  whether you're getting enough, too little or too much nutrition in the general way of things and whether your body is able to regulate the blood sugar effectively in the moment . There are people who lose the hungry feeling altogether as well as people who feel ravenous all the time and it's not at all healthy to follow the growl in those extremes.  

Unless you're diabetic or otherwise getting woozy from low blood sugar or unless you have an eating disorder most of us probably can get feelings of  hunger and delay eating for a while without  ill effects. I am not diabetic and if it's a busy day at work and I have no chance to eat just then I find the hunger pang does tend to go away for a while like Gwen said,  if I have to ignore it, only to return later

But then not all diabetics get the hungry feeling and blood sugar can get dangerously low without them feeling at all hungry. Conversely you might be hungry as heck and your blood sugar could be still fine, and the only way to know for sure is to measure. 

  If you have blood sugar regulation problems or an eating disorder it might be a good idea to stick to some sort of regular meal schedule. And for many of us it's an easier way to lose weight, as it's easy to go overboard if you're feeling like you're starving.  But ignoring a hungry feeling here and there is generally not dangerous.  Likely it's not a sign you're starving, it's not God telling you to eat, it's just a digestive system sensation or an impulse to snack, sometimes the force of habit. I'm used to eating at lunch hour so I expect to feel hungry even if I'm really not. 

The way Gwen combined the hunger pangs with God makes no sense to me.   There's nothing in the Bible that I could find that says  God is the Growl, and frankly,  thinking God's just a bowel sensation would be a bit offensive to me, if I was God. 

But if God really IS in the Growl then how the heck did she justify not eating when you get hungry? "Hi God, how are you? Nice to see you here..so you came here to tell me it's time to eat?  Okay that's very kind of you but can't you see I'm busy now? I'll just pull a meal out of my hips  so can you buzz off  and come back later when I have nothing better to do? God's will you say? What's that, a sign? Well sure but who can bother with all the signs? Have you seen all the birds around here lately? A nightmare, I'm telling ya,  all those smug cardinals... Anyway I think I could stand to lose more weight so if you won't mind I'm not going to eat right now.   It's more of a guideline than a rule, right? I don't feel like doing what you say just now ok bye..." 

I think this is another one where in theory it's fine, but how she told people to practice it is dangerous. In my job I skip lunch a lot. Not the best for my body by any means, but it is what it is and I'm not starving myself and I'm fine... I'm not fat but I've got some stores my body can go to. And if you're changing overindulgent habits, you'll have to deny yourself sometimes.

It's when she told people to wait up to 36 hours for a growl, and then tied that waiting to their salvation that it got dangerous. Your body can give many cues when it's hungry and being scared to listen to that cues or you might make God angry is unhealthy.

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Yeah to me the theology stuff is just details. I've not studied any of that in detail, I just know what I've seen from growing up in churches.

But the thing that gets me is this is a CHURCH based on a WEIGHT LOSS PROGRAM.

Read that again. And think about it. A church. Based on a diet program. 

Over and over again Gwen would talk about how to love God, follow God, etc... but it always, always, always came back to "try not to eat if you can help it. God wants you to be skinny." Basically everyone of her devotions was like that. They nearly all boil down to "Deny yourself and focus on God! By NOT EATING, YOU GLUTTONOUS PIG."

Like, Beachbody is an MLM, right? And Plexus, and Herbalife, and things like that, right? But Gwen had a great idea - instead of creating an MLM to line her pockets using her weight loss plan, she'd proclaim that eating = sinning and heavily imply to people they'll go to hell if they're fat, and call it a church so people would feel biblically obligated to tithe money to her. 

It's not just a cult, it's a money making scam. And Gwen made out like gangbusters. 

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Oh also maybe go look at the previous thread where current church member Rob Day came on here and attacked my experience. Do you really want to be associated with that type of behavior?

Edited by RFsurvivor
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Turning a weight loss program into a church was clever. Evil, but clever. And she sat herself up as the voice of God so if anyone said the diet program didn't work she could just claim they were sinners disagreeing with God. 

Bob, if people had come to FJ and tried to claim a church was a cult based on not believing in the trinity or even the pray and flop thing, they would have been laughed off the forum. So don't even attempt to go down that path because it won't fly here. 

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1 hour ago, Blue said:

I think this is another one where in theory it's fine, but how she told people to practice it is dangerous. In my job I skip lunch a lot. Not the best for my body by any means, but it is what it is and I'm not starving myself and I'm fine... I'm not fat but I've got some stores my body can go to. And if you're changing overindulgent habits, you'll have to deny yourself sometimes.

It's when she told people to wait up to 36 hours for a growl, and then tied that waiting to their salvation that it got dangerous. Your body can give many cues when it's hungry and being scared to listen to that cues or you might make God angry is unhealthy.

If there is an afterlife I hope she gets some tough love about all the soul crushing things she had to say about how you're probably a Bad Human and a Slave To The Devil and the opposite of a godloving person if you overeat or have a weight problem, an addiction or other issues. 

3 hours ago, Bob said:

. I don’t really take a position on what ex members have to say. I can’t personally discount the experience they may have gone through. I wasn’t there.

 

Seems to me you discounted their experience several times in this thread already *shrug*

Edited by AmazonGrace
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8 hours ago, AmazonGrace said:

JMO she's not wrong about a lot of us having enough stored fat to sustain us over a missed meal, and I think doctors  usually wouldn't be  concerned over occasionally ignored hunger pangs unless it becomes a general pattern that leads to malnutrition. If you're trying purposefully to lose weight you might have to ignore some impulses to eat in any case. 

The growl is largely irrelevant to doctors apart from whether you're following it to unhealthy extremes as a general rule. In the short term whether you're feeling the growl or not when you're eating  wouldn't matter much medically. It's more about  whether you're getting enough, too little or too much nutrition in the general way of things and whether your body is able to regulate the blood sugar effectively in the moment . There are people who lose the hungry feeling altogether as well as people who feel ravenous all the time and it's not at all healthy to follow the growl in those extremes.  

Unless you're diabetic or otherwise getting woozy from low blood sugar or unless you have an eating disorder most of us probably can get feelings of  hunger and delay eating for a while without  ill effects. I am not diabetic and if it's a busy day at work and I have no chance to eat just then I find the hunger pang does tend to go away for a while like Gwen said,  if I have to ignore it, only to return later

But then not all diabetics get the hungry feeling and blood sugar can get dangerously low without them feeling at all hungry. Conversely you might be hungry as heck and your blood sugar could be still fine, and the only way to know for sure is to measure. 

  If you have blood sugar regulation problems or an eating disorder it might be a good idea to stick to some sort of regular meal schedule. And for many of us it's an easier way to lose weight, as it's easy to go overboard if you're feeling like you're starving.  But ignoring a hungry feeling here and there is generally not dangerous.  Likely it's not a sign you're starving, it's not God telling you to eat, it's just a digestive system sensation or an impulse to snack, sometimes the force of habit. I'm used to eating at lunch hour so I expect to feel hungry even if I'm really not. 

The way Gwen combined the hunger pangs with God makes no sense to me.   There's nothing in the Bible that I could find that says  God is the Growl, and frankly,  thinking God's just a bowel sensation would be a bit offensive to me, if I was God. 

But if God really IS in the Growl then how the heck did she justify not eating when you get hungry? "Hi God, how are you? Nice to see you here..so you came here to tell me it's time to eat?  Okay that's very kind of you but can't you see I'm busy now? I'll just pull a meal out of my hips  so can you buzz off  and come back later when I have nothing better to do? God's will you say? What's that, a sign? Well sure but who can bother with all the signs? Have you seen all the birds around here lately? A nightmare, I'm telling ya,  all those smug cardinals... Anyway I think I could stand to lose more weight so if you won't mind I'm not going to eat right now.   It's more of a guideline than a rule, right? I don't feel like doing what you say just now ok bye..." 

I think that what you've stated here is accurate and reasonable under the "normal" circumstances that you've outlined. What one comes to find as one takes the classes is that in the case of Weigh Down, weight loss is not as simple as a "missed meal here or there". I was in multiple classes which included conversations on WhatsApp and Marco Polo and people were going to extremes to lose weight. I actually found myself having to wait until I was ravenous and weak and then eat as little as possible in order to lose weight on her plan. Others took different measures. 

My point in utilizing that quote is that nowhere in any other dietician's blog, podcast or writings have I seen the explanation, "If you miss a meal it's OK, as your body will just pull a meal from your hips and gut". I'm aware that the one can miss meals here and there, as there are many times that I can't get to food right away, and as long as I'm doing well with my eating disorder recovery, it really doesn't present a problem for me. I also have issues with my stomach if I eat too early in the day, so there are plenty of times when i actually NEED to wait. However, if many Weigh Down participants are honest, they go WELL BEYOND missing a meal here or there or simply avoiding the impulse to eat when they're not truly hungry.

I just wanted to add that I DID lose weight following her program, but that I was not at all healthy. I was lightheaded and dizzy a lot of the time, and I was also very cold. I ended up at the doctor's office getting numerous tests done because I couldn't figure out what was wrong with me at. Of course, I was in a "normal" weigh category after losing the weight, so no one batted an eye at my size and no real alarm bells were raised in that regard. I was very thin, too. Thankfully I was able to find out more about intuitive eating and heard from people like Isabel Foxen Duke and Caroline Dooner to help me get on the path to simply EATING again. I've also gotten counseling to help with the mental stuff.

At the current time, I am in the "obese" category, though most people STILL wouldn't bat an eye at me, and my cholesterol, blood pressure, kidney function, A1c and all of that are normal. According to Gwen, I should have diabetes or be dying of some other malady, but I was actually much worse off when following her plan.

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16 minutes ago, freefromthin said:

 However, if many Weigh Down participants are honest, they go WELL BEYOND missing a meal here or there or simply avoiding the impulse to eat when they're not truly hungry.

 

Gwen sort of made missing meals her entire reason of being :o 

it's so much fun to miss meals! you're going to be so healthy and have so much energy if you miss more meals! you're going to be a better and more loving person if you miss more meals! your marriage will be better if you miss more meals!

She sounded very much like thinspiration blogs that glorify anorexia, only more insane.

Ugh and her God was so shallow. What use is a god that only cares what size pants you wear.

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Just now, AmazonGrace said:

Gwen sort of made missing meals her entire reason of being :o 

it's so much fun to miss meals! you're going to be so healthy and have so much energy if you miss more meals! you're going to be a better and more loving person if you miss more meals! your marriage will be better if you miss more meals!

She sounded very much like thinspiration blogs that glorify anorexia, only more insane.

THIS. ALL. OF. THIS. 

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3 hours ago, treemom said:

I’m not sure how you can claim you are discounting the experiences of some when you specifically say in this post and other posts that the real problem is the ex members or non members here really just don’t like the theology. Despite the fact that almost all of the issues have been illuminated using direct often multi paragraphs quotes from Gwen

 

also it’s poor form and obviously an attempt to shame and judge those by pointing out you just don’t have the time and how do we have all the time we do?  What purpose did you hope that commentary to serve?

It's amazing how much free time one has when one does not belong to a time sucking cult.

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4 hours ago, Bob said:

This post would be an example of why I finally jumped on to pose some questions to you all. 

As others have pointed out, this isn't about the belief in the Trinity.  It's about good common sense.  It's about realizing that a religion based on weight loss is a scam.  You can dance around it all you want but Gwen never got far from her "God hates fat people" theology.  It was all about denial of self.  Oddly enough, she seemed to keep the denial to just food.  She certainly didn't deny herself expensive clothes, jewelry, vehicles, vacation homes, and airplanes, did she?  (Can you spot the hypocrisy, Bob?)  She lived in a mansion paid for by conning people into believing that weight loss is godly.  

She was also big on control.  Do you know any other church leaders, Bob, who decide what color their congregations get to wear for certain religious occasions?  Do other pastors dictate who can be in a wedding party and what color they will be allowed to wear?  Do any other ministers dictate the precise behaviors for children?  Do other ministers sanction child abuse that results in homicide?  (If you pop back up and answer us, Bob, I'm particularly interested in that last question.)

Here's your spiritual leader, Bob.  You can print it out and stick it on the wall and salute her every day if you want.  All I see is a greedy (and slightly crazy) cult leader.

Spoiler

1835293645_Screenshot(4506).png.a28f8ead191a7bb50acbcfc6534ceb22.png

Go back and tell your RF buddies that the PR campaign is going to be an uphill battle.

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Last night's service was interesting. Basically a bunch of the leaders sat up front and attempted to smooth over concerns that the church will indeed go on. They'd make a small mention that it wasn't about "just one person" but then go on and on about how much Elizabeth is Gwen 2.0.  They almost appeared to be panicked.

Yes, the church will likely continue for quite some time. There's obviously enough interest to do so. But they have pinned ALL their hope on Elizabeth and as we've discussed before...while they wish it were so, she is not Gwen. She does not have the charisma, the (albeit useless) masters degree in dietetics, etc.  Therefore I just don't see it ever rising to great heights, rather I suspect it will continue to diminish. We can only hope.

And Bob...cults are tricky Bob...very tricky. There's an answer for everything. Things that seem safe and reasonable often don't show how insidious they are until you are too far in. And even then, if you are emotionally passive you may never be able to see it. The constant drilling of the congregation to submit to authority, to be sheep etc should give anyone concern. NOT that traditional hierarchical set-ups are all evil but they leave people in an extremely vulnerable spot when there is no pathway to question leadership. And there was and is no way to question leadership, Bob. Questioning Gwen, and now Elizabeth, is akin to questioning God himself. So...if you don't see how that is the makings of a cult (even if you can get behind many of the beliefs) then you have been and will continue to be blind. 

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24 minutes ago, AmazonGrace said:

It's amazing how much free time one has when one does not belong to a time sucking cult.

Well, and what does that have to do with anything? Bob being snotty to us in the middle of a discussion is pretty lame.

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11 minutes ago, TDHuggies said:

Last night's service was interesting.

You covered it nicely. I just have to vent about one thing Joe Langsdon said that really triggers me. "Any other church would not have survived." That is complete and utter nonsense. For all their flaws, mainstream churches have strong support systems and backups so if something like this happens, the church continues to function, in no small part because it's part of a larger body. It's personality cults like RF that go into a tailspin when their leader gets taken out.

I can guarantee you that if 7 of the leaders in my church died suddenly, we would not be having weekly meetings to reassure everyone that the church would continue. Or to remind us that we're better than everyone else.

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3 minutes ago, ManyGoats said:

 

You covered it nicely. I just have to vent about one thing Joe Langsdon said that really triggers me. "Any other church would not have survived." That is complete and utter nonsense. For all their flaws, mainstream churches have strong support systems and backups so if something like this happens, the church continues to function, in no small part because it's part of a larger body. It's personality cults like RF that go into a tailspin when their leader gets taken out.

I can guarantee you that if 7 of the leaders in my church died suddenly, we would not be having weekly meetings to reassure everyone that the church would continue. Or to remind us that we're better than everyone else.

1000% agree with you! I was thinking much the same thing. No way does this happen with a normal congregation when the pastor/priest dies. Because it's not all about the current leader (s). They kept trying to say it wasn't all about one person but then the very next comment would negate what they had just said. Utterly fascinating...scary, but fascinating. 

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13 minutes ago, ManyGoats said:

 

You covered it nicely. I just have to vent about one thing Joe Langsdon said that really triggers me. "Any other church would not have survived." That is complete and utter nonsense. For all their flaws, mainstream churches have strong support systems and backups so if something like this happens, the church continues to function, in no small part because it's part of a larger body. It's personality cults like RF that go into a tailspin when their leader gets taken out.

I can guarantee you that if 7 of the leaders in my church died suddenly, we would not be having weekly meetings to reassure everyone that the church would continue. Or to remind us that we're better than everyone else.

Uh how many Popes have died?  Yet look at how it persists.  Church leaders leave churches or die or retire or get sick all the time. Sometimes yes, that may cause a church to fall apart. But the vast majority do not. One can observe this by using your eyeballs. 
 

My tone is not directed at you obviously but rather at RF

Edited by treemom
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2 hours ago, RFsurvivor said:

When I was a member, any “semi regular visitor” like you claim you are would have believed I was happy based on observation. Until I started questioning the church, I was completely sure it was the Truth and I was happy. I believed I knew the Truth and I was special. There was always a small voice in the back of my head that I told NO ONE about. Then when I was starting to deconstruct in my faith, I put on a damn good show that I was still happy while I was spiraling apart at the end. It was a shock to most of my friends and family when I left. 
 

You are only going to see what the current members need show and tell you, whereas people like myself have shared the trauma and harm that we came to in Remnant. Also, when you are brainwashed by a cult, there are things that you think are okay, but when you break that spell many people look back and realize all the abuse they unknowingly endured. 
 

If you are truly seeking answers here @Bob, I would start by addressing the multitude of questions that have been posed to you. 
 

lastly I would recommend a thought experiment to you.  Imagine you were raised in a church that you spent 90%+ of your free time at, that your family is at and all of your friends attend. You are told your church has the Truth in a sea of churches that do not have the Truth. You have seen the fruit for years and years. You are taken care of by your fellow church members and by your family. You don’t need to move out when you are an adult when you’re family loves you. You found your spouse at 17 and got married at 18 because it’s true love in God’s Remnant. You start having kids but since you didn’t get an education, you struggle. The church helps you and are now indebted to the church. You start to question the church. You realize that you don’t agree (for whatever reason, doctrine, the emotional and spiritual abuse, the hypocrisy) but you can’t leave. If you leave, your spouse will divorce you. If you leave they will take your kids. If you leave you have no support system because your whole life is Remnant Fellowship. So you know what you do, you put on a happy face and pretend. You try to go back to before you stopped believing and put on your cult mask (because you’ve realized it’s a cult by now) to protect the life and your family. 
 

 Now @Bob do you really think that the person dealing with this struggle would tell you they are? Or anyone struggling with something similar? They will not because they are trying to convince themselves and if they admit to anyone, the brainwashing and the spell begins to break. 
 

anyways, good luck with being a Remnant Member! Since that seems to be the path you are going. I hope for your sake you don’t join but you are already repeating talking points like a pro and adopted the us vs them mentality that is key cult behavior!

Exactly! This is exactly how so many people have been tricked into joining Remnant. Because even if they’ve heard a few bad things, the Remnant leaders will tell them “Oh, just ignore the attackers online, Satan is just trying to keep you away from God’s Truth; if you are really seeking God’s Truth, then what you need to do is come to our church and experience Remnant for yourself and look at the fruit of this message.” That is the tactic that Remnant leaders repeatedly use to trick visitors into disregarding warnings from ex-members. More importantly, this tactic is designed to trick visitors into thinking they are performing a legitimate experiment to prove whether Remnant is good or bad, when in reality no such experiment is occurring. So they visit Remnant, and of course they get swept up in all the happy faces and breathlessly excited testimonies. Just like @RFsurvivor said, the visitor only sees good fruit, because all the people in the cult who are hurting are also trapped/browbeaten/guilttripped/etc and are under immense pressure to hide the bad fruit and act happy. The visitor then goes home and thinks that they just proved to themselves that Remnant has so much good fruit so it must be a good message full of Truth…when in reality all the bad fruit was hidden from them by design, and it wasn’t truly a legitimate experiment at all. 
 

That’s why thinking you can visit Remnant in order to judge it with your own eyes and ears is falling into Remnant’s trap and letting yourself be tricked; it is a cult that is literally designed to pressure people into only displaying good fruit for God’s glory while desperately trying to hide all of the bad fruit. How can you judge it correctly when most of the evidence is being withheld from you? Desperately scrambling for weak excuses to ignore the warnings of ex-members is falling into Remnant’s trap and letting yourself be tricked. Desperately scrambling for weak excuses to ignore 18 threads that reveal literal decades’ worth of the Remnant cult’s bad fruit is falling into Remnant’s trap and letting yourself be tricked. 
 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, ManyGoats said:

one thing Joe Langsdon said that really triggers me. "Any other church would not have survived." That is complete and utter nonsense.

200%agree. What Joe Langsdon said is utter nonsense. It is such a ridiculous claim. It is one of those cognitive dissonance moments when I don’t know if I should laugh or scream at the insanity. 

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15 minutes ago, ManyGoats said:

Well, and what does that have to do with anything? Bob being snotty to us in the middle of a discussion is pretty lame.

Snotty will eventually bleed through if you're defending your cult online... it starts with, "hello, I'm new here and I have some questions, I am a bit confused about this thing that you just said, did I miss something, can you please clarify", goes on to " what you're saying doesn't add up, I did this course and attended these events and y'all probably didn't so I know what i'm talking about and you guys may be a bit confused" ,  to "so you say you had this bad experience but I have never seen that sort of thing, I guess we talk to different people", to "I am not discounting anyone's experiences but  disgruntled ex members should not be believed, they just regurgitate negative stuff because they read it from other haters who attack this church" 

I was curious and did a search on the Gwen threads in the cult forum... we did talk about Trinity a bit but a lot of it was in the context of "I don't care what they think about trinity, it's the eating disorder cult i have a problem with"....  and we have objected to Gwen's hair WAY more than her views about trinity.

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