(Possible Child Sexual Abuse Content) Josh and Anna 34: Plea Deal in the Making?

[EmCatlyn]

28 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

I think that if Josh is going to plead out, he would wait until the last minute. He would want to spend as much time as possible as a free man. He might want to hold out until M7 is born. Just as long as he doesn't have enough time to make M8.

I tend to agree that he will drag it out as long as possible, not just to “spend as much time as possible as a free man,” but because he will hope until the end that by some miracle he will be able to avoid going to jail.  That appears to be the way he functions: he does things he know will have bad consequences if he is caught but hopes he will either not be caught or avoid the worst consequences.

[starfish]

7 hours ago, SassyPants said:

True story. I was called for JD in the 90s for what turned out to be a murder trial. At one point I was seated in the box of 12 potential jurors.  I Remember one of the questions asked was confirming my address- WTH. Anyhow, about 1/2 hour into VD, the door opens and this woman, a potential juror, came running in. She stood in the aisle and stated to the judge” this is the same room where by brother was convicted of murder.” I must have had a visible response, because at the next opportunity the defense excused me.

I’ve also been called twice where the bailiff comes in and excuses everyone d/t a plea deal, day of…what a waste of time.

First, thank you for showing up for jury duty. So many people don't bother. Just wanted to clarify that, in criminal cases, plea deals are often made at the last minute because that's when the State starts making offers you can sell to your client. In my county, the offer is typically the maximum sentence + maximum fine. You have to call their bluff on it and be ready to go to trial. Then when you've got 80+ potential jurors downstairs, the State realizes that their great case has big holes and terrible witnesses and starts offering something palatable. 

[Dandruff]

55 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

I think that if Josh is going to plead out, he would wait until the last minute. He would want to spend as much time as possible as a free man. He might want to hold out until M7 is born. Just as long as he doesn't have enough time to make M8.

If he and Anna were to create an M8 they'd be knowingly producing a child with a poor chance of having a father present during his/her formative years.  This would spit in the face of conservative belief that children need a father.  It would also result in more work for Anna and bigger bills for JB.  I doubt they'd let it happen.

I agree that he'll probably wait as long as he can if he's going to plead out.

[AussieKrissy]

13 hours ago, imokit said:

Aren't prisons hives of religious fundamentalism and indoctrination? Its where people find god to try and make themselves feel better about prison life (and what happened to get them there).  Its also where religious outreach groups (such as the one led by Anna's dad) go and talk to people and going to those groups is a nice break from prison life. 

I wouldn't expect prison to make Josh secular.

I also don't think any of us have a clue what Josh actually believes.  Josh has been all about himself, he clearly doesn't follow all the families religious principles (which is why he's in this mess), but he's also motivated by self interest.  He'll do what he needs to do for an easier life.  It hasn't been about belief for him for years.  If he got secular counselling in prison and came out an atheist, we are unlikely to know as he'll come out and say what he's supposed to say (unless offered a huge financial deal for a tell all - in which case he'd say whatever the people paying him said). 

My Prison Chaplin says (i have quoted this on here before). "That prison gates are the holiest on Earth. They find god on the way in and leave god on the way out." I wouldn't trust many gaol jesus conversions.....

Duggars are scared of therapy, i bet they think it ruined Jill and We generally think Jill is the best of the lot.

8 minutes ago, Dandruff said:

If he and Anna were to create an M8 they'd be knowingly producing a child with a poor chance of having a father present during his/her formative years.  This would spit in the face of conservative belief that children need a father.  It would also result in more work for Anna and bigger bills for JB.  I doubt they'd let it happen.

I agree that he'll probably wait as long as he can if he's going to plead out.

I dunno, if Anna is not purely repulsed by the guy now, I can see he baby fever and baby collection addiction kicking in. Also if she still hasn't learnt she can say no and does not have to be joyfully available will she have a choice....

[ifosterkittens]

The judge hasn't ruled on the defense motions yet. The government just responded (Emily D Baker covered it yesterday) to those motions. Once the judge rules, and if all the evidence and statements are coming in and nothing is suppressed then I imagine Josh would consider a plea. Jim Bob likely paid a pretty penny for the defense (Emily said it clearly took a lot of time, and probably was expensive), but if the motions don't go their way they probably see the writing on the wall-- time for a plea. Right now there is the possibility the judge could rule in Josh's favor. 

[FiveAcres]

49 minutes ago, ifosterkittens said:

The judge hasn't ruled on the defense motions yet. The government just responded (Emily D Baker covered it yesterday) to those motions. Once the judge rules, and if all the evidence and statements are coming in and nothing is suppressed then I imagine Josh would consider a plea. Jim Bob likely paid a pretty penny for the defense (Emily said it clearly took a lot of time, and probably was expensive), but if the motions don't go their way they probably see the writing on the wall-- time for a plea. Right now there is the possibility the judge could rule in Josh's favor. 

If you are interested in more details about what happened the day of the seizure of the computer equipment, listen to Baker's YouTube dated 9/15/2021. Josh just about did everything a criminal defense attorney would prefer his or her client not to do. He was not detained or arrested, so what he should have done is leave the property after surrendering his phone and other equipment. Instead, he apparently decided to have a chat with the agents to see what they knew. And the agents were perfectly happy to chat with Josh about what he knew about computers and IP addresses. Joshy Boy even signed a paper saying he was talking to the agents of his own free will. 

Baker made another observation about CSAM trials. She said that the jurors can get so angry at the defendant for not taking a plea, and subjecting them to having to view CSAM materials (even if these are somewhat sanitized and redacted), that it is very hard for them to view the defendant as innocent until proven guilty. 

Baker has a timestamp of when she starts covering the Duggar stuff in the notes. The link to the youtube video is in the spoiler.

Spoiler

 

 

[Queen Of Hearts]

52 minutes ago, FiveAcres said:

Josh just about did everything a criminal defense attorney would prefer his or her client not to do. He was not detained or arrested, so what he should have done is leave the property after surrendering his phone and other equipment. Instead, he apparently decided to have a chat with the agents to see what they knew. 
 

We don't call him Smuggar for nothing.

[ifosterkittens]

@FiveAcresthank you for introducing me to Emily D Baker-- I love her! I watched yesterday's video, and agree with everything you said. From what I have learned from Emily reviewing the motions, the evidence and Josh's own statements I believe he is guilty, and would like him to change his plea to guilty and serve as much time as the judge can throw at him. 

My thought process was if Jim Bob wanted this handled quietly, with as little coverage as possible, and he knew Josh was guilty and should be held accountable Jim Bob could have said take the first deal they offer. Skip the hearings, skip motions, skip the trial. I'm not sure, but maybe then the description of CSAM wouldn't have become public (can anyone comment on that?). Jim Bob could have spun it as a terrible tragedy, he and Michelle did their best as parents, but sometimes kids go astray, and when that happens they have to be held accountable without discussing particulars.

(As @starfishpointed out the first plea deal isn't always much of a deal, so maybe they decided they had nothing to lose by moving forward.)

Instead Jim Bob hired excellent attorneys who have put in the time and effort. From what Emily has said they did the usual stuff- went after the search warrants, tried to suppress the statements. They also got creative with the appointments clause. If you are going to spend big money on these attorneys you let them file the motions, and if the motions are rejected then you discuss plea. From what Emily has said it sounds unlikely these motions will be granted, but she said the defense's job is to throw everything at the wall and see what sticks. So I was thinking Josh is waiting for the judge to rule on these motions, and if the motions are denied then discuss a plea. 

I loved all of Emily's insights, and was bummed when she moved Coffee and Cursey words until Wednesday because I wanted to know what Emily thinks about this now!  I absolutely think I would be the juror she described that is angry I was subjected to CSAM, and it would influence me.

Because of Emily's fascinating coverage I am now incredibly invested in the the Tom and Erika Jane Girardi lawsuits. I don't watch housewives, and never heard of them before Emily, but when Emily starts off with the phrase allegations and shade I am there!  

[Bad Wolf]

If Josh had been allowed to watch ebil  television, or read detective novels he would have known that his first word should have been' "lawyer". Not, let's chat with an agent.

[Giraffe]

11 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Quoting myself here. Yes @giraffe, that must have been the look on my face that got me dismissed from the case. And seriously, you expose my address with a potential murderer within earshot?

Was I supposed to be the one tagged for this? ...I have no idea what's going on here... 

Don't mind me. I'm in need of sleep and strong coffee...

Edited September 17, 2021 by Giraffe
Reading comprehension fail

[Giraffe]

5 hours ago, Dandruff said:

If he and Anna were to create an M8 they'd be knowingly producing a child with a poor chance of having a father present during his/her formative years.  This would spit in the face of conservative belief that children need a father.  It would also result in more work for Anna and bigger bills for JB.  I doubt they'd let it happen.

I agree that he'll probably wait as long as he can if he's going to plead out.

He's been charged with horrific crimes and she still publicly stands by her man. He spit in the face of their conservative beliefs time and again. Why would it even cross their minds that creating M8 would make them look like hypocrites?

[EmCatlyn]

9 hours ago, Dandruff said:

If he and Anna were to create an M8 they'd be knowingly producing a child with a poor chance of having a father present during his/her formative years.  This would spit in the face of conservative belief that children need a father.  It would also result in more work for Anna and bigger bills for JB.  I doubt they'd let it happen.

I agree that he'll probably wait as long as he can if he's going to plead out.

M7 has not been born yet, and you have to figure at least six weeks (and more likely longer, if she breastfeeds) after the birth before Anna can get pregnant again.  So, if trial/sentencing or plea are scheduled for November, I think it is unlikely there will be an M8 conceived before Josh goes into prison.

That being said, if Josh doesn’t plead guilty, and the trial is delayed, I doubt that anyone in the Duggars’ world will think Anna and Josh should do anything to prevent another pregnancy.  They may believe that children “need a father,” but they also believe that (a) God should decide how many children you have and (b)a married man should have access to a “joyfully willing” wife.

JB may not want to support another kid, Josh may not want another kid, everyone may agree that children need a father, but the “leave it to God” ideology is stronger than concerns about children not having fathers.

[gustava]

12 hours ago, Dandruff said:

If he and Anna were to create an M8 they'd be knowingly producing a child with a poor chance of having a father present during his/her formative years.  This would spit in the face of conservative belief that children need a father.  It would also result in more work for Anna and bigger bills for JB.  I doubt they'd let it happen.

I agree that he'll probably wait as long as he can if he's going to plead out.

I'm not sure that he does much more than provide sperm.

[BensAllergies]

7 hours ago, Bad Wolf said:

If Josh had been allowed to watch ebil  television, or read detective novels he would have known that his first word should have been' "lawyer". Not, let's chat with an agent.

When they took his phone as part of the search warrant, he said he wanted to talk to a lawyer.

But then when the agents told him that he was free to leave, curiosity got the better of him and he stayed and ended up chatting with them. Then tried to use a defense strategy that he was denied a lawyer because they took his phone.

[FiveAcres]

2 hours ago, BensAllergies said:

When they took his phone as part of the search warrant, he said he wanted to talk to a lawyer.

But then when the agents told him that he was free to leave, curiosity got the better of him and he stayed and ended up chatting with them. Then tried to use a defense strategy that he was denied a lawyer because they took his phone.

PSA: If a bunch of federal agents show up at your place and you think you are the smartest person there, you are not the smartest person there. 

[Queen Of Hearts]

12 minutes ago, FiveAcres said:

PSA: If a bunch of federal agents show up at your place and you think you are the smartest person there, you are not the smartest person there. 

That would have been an episode of Counting on I would have PAID to watch - Smuggar chatting with the agents trying to out-wit them.  Must see TV!  

[Meggo]

41 minutes ago, FiveAcres said:

PSA: If a bunch of federal agents show up at your place and you think you are the smartest person there, you are not the smartest person there. 

I am pretty sure - having committed NO CRIME EVER (maybe a bit of speeding) - if feds showed up at my house - I would call an attorney. Seriously. I've watched enough Law & Order (man I love that show) to know that I'm not talking to ANYONE at that level without someone official with me... 
And seriously- I'm the least shady person in the world!

[Coconut Flan]

57 minutes ago, FiveAcres said:

PSA: If a bunch of federal agents show up at your place and you think you are the smartest person there, you are not the smartest person there. 

In my last job I worked with a raft load of federal contracts.  Looking up to see federal agents gathered outside my office was a regular feature of the job due to frequent allegations of corruption in government contracting.  (It happens plus it's a way some people get back at other contractors or employees.)  The first time rattled me.  I knew to expect unannounced appearances like that and still went WHAT??  I still wonder why they send five agents for every one they need.  I expect Josh was completely out of his depth in the situation.  Add in the smarmy Gothard and Jim Bob teachings and it's no wonder he made a mess of it.  

[Antimony]

3 hours ago, BensAllergies said:

When they took his phone as part of the search warrant, he said he wanted to talk to a lawyer.

But then when the agents told him that he was free to leave, curiosity got the better of him and he stayed and ended up chatting with them. Then tried to use a defense strategy that he was denied a lawyer because they took his phone.

Genuinely, when these documents dropped last Friday I was reeling at the transcript of events. Like, buddy, what was the plan when you let the federal agents record your conversation without a lawyer? 

You could take the Emperor's New Groove famous memeable line ("Kronk : Oh, right. The poison. The poison for Kuzco, the poison chosen especially to kill Kuzco, Kuzco's poison.") and just re-write Josh's conversation with the Feds to be effectively, "Oh, right. The computer in the car lot. The computer with Tor that I use for file sharing? The computer specifically set up for downloading CSA? That computer." 

The part that kills me the most is the following and it isn't a legal admission of guilt but it feels like something you'd name a cocktail after at a Lawyer's bar. Like, maybe we name the Martini "The Client that All but Fucks It" or it's a Long Island Ice Tea called "Your Client Said the Worst Possible Thing Before Calling You."(Under spoiler b/c Triggers) You can order it with a set of shots called "Billable Hours." (In the theatre of my mind, there are little lawyer bar haunts in this universe and they are committed to the theme.)

Spoiler

He also stated he was not “denying guilt,” but was not going to say anything to incriminate himself. When asked directly if he had seen images of child pornography involving children five(5)to ten (10)years of age, Duggar stated “I’d rather not answer that question.” The interview concluded and Duggar left before the search of the premises was complete. Law enforcement did not arrest any that day in connection with the search of the car lot. 

 

[Alisamer]

34 minutes ago, Meggo said:

I am pretty sure - having committed NO CRIME EVER (maybe a bit of speeding) - if feds showed up at my house - I would call an attorney. Seriously. I've watched enough Law & Order (man I love that show) to know that I'm not talking to ANYONE at that level without someone official with me... 
And seriously- I'm the least shady person in the world!

Same. I think my response would be along the lines of a bewildered "I haven't done anything wrong but this is intimidating so I think I want a lawyer here please!"

Not that I would have the first clue who to call to assist me. I'd probably call my boss and ask him for his son's number (son is an attorney) and see if he knew who best to assist with something like that. Though realistically I'd end up with a public defender or whoever they assign to the poors who can't afford their own lawyer.

[FiveAcres]

18 minutes ago, Antimony said:

Keeping the hidden bits of Antimony's post

  Hide contents

He also stated he was not “denying guilt,” but was not going to say anything to incriminate himself. When asked directly if he had seen images of child pornography involving children five(5)to ten (10)years of age, Duggar stated “I’d rather not answer that question.” The interview concluded and Duggar left before the search of the premises was complete. Law enforcement did not arrest any that day in connection with the search of the car lot. 

 

He can't be completely stupid because, although setting up a Linux partition is not rocket science, it's not a trivial exercise either. (I've done it just because I used to run a Windows / Linux dual boot system before I just set up a single boot Linux system.) Setting up a Linux partition requires the ability to read and follow a fairly technical set of directions. But I have to wonder what he thought he was doing when he decided to talk to the agents. Did he really think that his Arkansas good-old-boy charm was going to impress professional law enforcement officials?

Edited September 17, 2021 by FiveAcres
screwed up hidden bits

[BlackberryGirl]

When the berries hit about 10-11 years of age we sat them down and carefully explained if they ever were picked up by the police they should immediately say they wanted a lawyer. And if it happened under age 16 ask for their parents and a lawyer in the same sentence.  No chitchat, no conversations, just be extremely polite and respectful and ask for a lawyer. 
 

remember, BlackberryBoy was a police officer for many years before he became a teacher, and he knows exactly what kind of techniques are used to get people to incriminate themselves.  This worked out to our advantage a couple of times.  BBBkid3 got picked up a couple of times, both because of malicious reporting, (he actually didn’t do either thing and was home with us both times.)  this is a small rural village and we know all the police, heck, we live next door to a man who was on the department for 20 years, his brother was the undersheriff, his brother in law was on the department, his son in law is on the department, his cousin is the village justice, and he lives on the other side of us! ..lol anyway. The kid got picked up and I was called, and we were told “we can charge him right now,” and I said , “ok, kid don’t say another word,I’m going to go call our family lawyer.”  Thats when the officer got flustered and said, “I didn’t mean right now!, not today!” And he let the kid go... as we’re leaving BBBKid3 turns and says, “see ya later, Brian!” And Brian says, “later, Jamie.”  Small towns.

[QuiverFullofBooks]

35 minutes ago, Antimony said:

Genuinely, when these documents dropped last Friday I was reeling at the transcript of events. Like, buddy, what was the plan when you let the federal agents record your conversation without a lawyer? 

You could take the Emperor's New Groove famous memeable line ("Kronk : Oh, right. The poison. The poison for Kuzco, the poison chosen especially to kill Kuzco, Kuzco's poison.") and just re-write Josh's conversation with the Feds to be effectively, "Oh, right. The computer in the car lot. The computer with Tor that I use for file sharing? The computer specifically set up for downloading CSA? That computer." 

The part that kills me the most is the following and it isn't a legal admission of guilt but it feels like something you'd name a cocktail after at a Lawyer's bar. Like, maybe we name the Martini "The Client that All but Fucks It" or it's a Long Island Ice Tea called "Your Client Said the Worst Possible Thing Before Calling You."(Under spoiler b/c Triggers) You can order it with a set of shots called "Billable Hours." (In the theatre of my mind, there are little lawyer bar haunts in this universe and they are committed to the theme.)

  Hide contents

He also stated he was not “denying guilt,” but was not going to say anything to incriminate himself. When asked directly if he had seen images of child pornography involving children five(5)to ten (10)years of age, Duggar stated “I’d rather not answer that question.” The interview concluded and Duggar left before the search of the premises was complete. Law enforcement did not arrest any that day in connection with the search of the car lot. 

 

LOL. At the lawyer bar, not the dumb pervert.

[BensAllergies]

30 minutes ago, Antimony said:

You could take the Emperor's New Groove famous memeable line ("Kronk : Oh, right. The poison. The poison for Kuzco, the poison chosen especially to kill Kuzco, Kuzco's poison.") and just re-write Josh's conversation with the Feds to be effectively, "Oh, right. The computer in the car lot. The computer with Tor that I use for file sharing? The computer specifically set up for downloading CSA? That computer."

I'm tickled by this reference. Dead on!

For those unaware...

At the time of the interview, the agents didn't know that Tor was installed on the computer nor did they mention Tor, but Josh voluntarily told them that he was familiar with it. He also asked if the agents were there because of child pornography.

[Antimony]

30 minutes ago, FiveAcres said:

He can't be completely stupid because, although setting up a Linux partition is not rocket science, it's not a trivial exercise either. (I've done it just because I used to run a Windows / Linux dual boot system before I just set up a single boot Linux system.) Setting up a Linux partition requires the ability to read and follow a fairly technical set of directions. But I have to wonder what he thought he was doing when he decided to talk to the agents. Did he really think that his Arkansas good-old-boy charm was going to impress professional law enforcement officials?

I genuinely think, yes, he thought that. I think this because he is the exact type of dude to cover his car in Blue Lives Matter and has, in his life, always had figures on Authority be on his side. I wouldn't be surprised if he'd talked his way out speeding tickets before, the Duggar girls would bring the police baked goods, etc. "Cops can't touch me, I'm a Straight White Christian Man" is part of his worldview. And not for no reason -- it's clear that the bias of police is full of a mix of -isms and that he would, usually, be favored by them. 

Last year, during the protests in Minneapolis and elsewhere, a lot of activism circles would instruct protestors who carried some level of privilege to exercise it against the police. Wear your preachers collar to the protest, use the social power a white man in a suit has to prevent others from being tear-gassed, etc. I believe Josh is, at some level, aware of this bias but has decided to use it for evil rather than good.

I also kind of do think its a good point that Josh hasn't be exposed to any Legal Dramas. Sure, Law & Order isn't accurate but it gets the main point of "Shutting up is your best bet" across to the average viewer.