(Possible Child Sexual Abuse Content) Josh and Anna 34: Plea Deal in the Making?

[Idlewild]

The Duggars subscribe to an extreme and warped interpretation of patriarchy which, instead of protecting women as they claim, ends up putting men in very powerful positions and leaving women with few options. They also scream persecution at any scrutiny of people in the cult and ‘repenting’ does a lot of heavy lifting - see Tabitha  Paine’s fiancé. 

Edited August 30, 2021 by Idlewild

[Alisamer]

At what point do some of these people look at Josh and his problems, Gothard's scandal, and all these other scandals and realized "wow this is some rotten fruit. I thought we were doing everything right to show GOOD fruit to the world?"

Seems like Jill has gotten at least a clue. But they can't all be so stupid that they can't see that this isn't just a few bad apples, it's a system that creates bad apples!

[Idlewild]

I used to follow a fundie family on FB but had to stop as I got so mad at them. They did a lot of ‘street ministry’ outside abortion clinics. If a police officer or clinic employee went anywhere near them they’d be filing complaints and whining all over FB about assault ( it never was). The wife did some videos about how to be a godly wife, in which she said you should obey your husband but if he is being abusive towards you, discuss it with your pastor or a trusted church elder. So if someone sneezed near her husband he’d go straight to the police, but an abused wife should know see what someone from the church thinks first. Is suspect this goes on a lot and many women are dissuaded from reporting husbands and the men feel they are immune to any reproach.

[Cheetah]

1 hour ago, Alisamer said:

At what point do some of these people look at Josh and his problems, Gothard's scandal, and all these other scandals and realized "wow this is some rotten fruit. I thought we were doing everything right to show GOOD fruit to the world?"

Seems like Jill has gotten at least a clue. But they can't all be so stupid that they can't see that this isn't just a few bad apples, it's a system that creates bad apples!

TBH I think that those folks think that that level of abuse happens to everyone everywhere and that's a driver of why they joined the cult in the first place.  Imagine if you grew up in a family with generational abuse where Grandpa was a molester and Uncle Fred was a molester as well and maybe another 3 or 4 aunts and uncles have substance abuse problems and here comes Bill Gothard with his umbrella of authority and reasons to be an authoritarian parent and it's got to be better than what you grew up with.  And occasionally one of the 'very good men' slips up and, well, that's awful but they seem remorseful and besides, half of the men you knew as a kid couldn't control themselves either.  

[Cults-r-us]

8 hours ago, Cheetah said:

TBH I think that those folks think that that level of abuse happens to everyone everywhere and that's a driver of why they joined the cult in the first place.  Imagine if you grew up in a family with generational abuse where Grandpa was a molester and Uncle Fred was a molester as well and maybe another 3 or 4 aunts and uncles have substance abuse problems and here comes Bill Gothard with his umbrella of authority and reasons to be an authoritarian parent and it's got to be better than what you grew up with.  And occasionally one of the 'very good men' slips up and, well, that's awful but they seem remorseful and besides, half of the men you knew as a kid couldn't control themselves either.  

Who wouldn't want an umbrella of protection if there was anything anywhere that could protect anyone from anything anytime.

[BadMurphy]

10 hours ago, Alisamer said:

At what point do some of these people look at Josh and his problems, Gothard's scandal, and all these other scandals and realized "wow this is some rotten fruit. I thought we were doing everything right to show GOOD fruit to 

They see it as Satan is testing him/them. So if Satan is throwing all this at him he must really be an amazing man of God.

[JMO]

Anyone else read the People article? Thoughts? I wonder if Jill is the source. Amy is the first thought but I wouldn't be surprised if it was Jill or even Jinger,  considering that she is singled out.

[SassyPants]

14 minutes ago, JMO said:

Anyone else read the People article? Thoughts? I wonder if Jill is the source. Amy is the first thought but I wouldn't be surprised if it was Jill or even Jinger,  considering that she is singled out.

Nothing we didn’t already know. The Vuolos distancing themselves because they lived in TX? Well, that’s where JV’s job was located. Now the Vuolos never taking a spontaneous vacation to NWA, well that might be an indication that they’ve got little use (beyond the $ that they make from the association) for JB and his TTH rules. The Dillards, old news. And they have seen JB and M in the last 2 years, as they’ve been at all the weddings. Maybe they’ve not been invited to TTH, and that would be on JB and M a and no one else. Come to think of it, they are the very people causing the chasm.

[bal maiden]

It says in that article that he has pleaded not guilty, does that mean he will not be accepting a plea deal and will be going to trial? 

[WiseGirl]

Link to the article.  From a quick scan it looks like they are the cover article as well.

https://people.com/tv/duggar-family-not-as-close-as-they-once-were-amid-josh-legal-drama-source/

[luv2laugh]

I don’t think the source is Jill & Derick because I don’t think Jill would’ve wanted to be only 1/2 Duggar siblings on the cover…

Edited September 1, 2021 by luv2laugh

[EmCatlyn]

2 hours ago, bal maiden said:

It says in that article that he has pleaded not guilty, does that mean he will not be accepting a plea deal and will be going to trial? 

It means only that he hasn’t made a plea deal so far.  As I understand it, you can change your plea at any time that you decide your chances of being acquitted are very bad and a plea deal will give you less time in prison and/or a better prison than if you wait until sentencing.

My guess is they are hoping to challenge/reduce the charges until what is left is something he can plead out of without doing time.  Until they get that, or until it is clear to Josh (and JB) that there is no way he can avoid prison,  he will continue to plead not guilty.

[EmCatlyn]

3 hours ago, WiseGirl said:

Link to the article.  From a quick scan it looks like they are the cover article as well.

https://people.com/tv/duggar-family-not-as-close-as-they-once-were-amid-josh-legal-drama-source/

Thanks for the link.  I don’t think the source is a member of the family — not even Amy— because of the “sweep it under the rug” comment.

I was also struck by the suggestion that what is tearing up the family is that TLC cancelled the show.

Quote

TLC cut all ties with the Duggars and pulled the plug on Counting On — fracturing the unity of the once tight-knit family and leaving their future uncertain.

I don’t know if this was intended that way, but it sure sounds as if TLC pulling the plug is what caused the “fracturing.” 🙄

[Smoochie]

It could also be an article someone just wrote based on social media posts. There really isn't any detail and as noted is incorrect when it states they haven't been together in 2 years.

I noted on Jill's thread that yes, she has been in her mothers company a few times as shown in her sisters pictures on Instagram and correct my initial post as, they have also all attended family weddings. Of course there is also a very real possibility Jill, Derrick and JB have not talked in 2 years.

[mpheels]

10 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

Thanks for the link.  I don’t think the source is a member of the family — not even Amy— because of the “sweep it under the rug” comment.

I was also struck by the suggestion that what is tearing up the family is that TLC cancelled the show.

I don’t know if this was intended that way, but it sure sounds as if TLC pulling the plug is what caused the “fracturing.” 🙄

If the adult/married kids were only showing up for (contrived) family events because of the TLC paycheck (direct or via JB), then cancelling the show would break up some of their “togetherness.” Plus I imagine they are all pissed at Josh for derailing the gravy train, and the ones who already had strained relationships will also be pissed at JB.

[CyborgKin]

"the family aren't as close as they were" seems like such a no-brainer that it makes me sad it'll still work as a clickbait headline.

[Jess]

19 hours ago, bal maiden said:

It says in that article that he has pleaded not guilty, does that mean he will not be accepting a plea deal and will be going to trial? 

 

16 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

It means only that he hasn’t made a plea deal so far.  As I understand it, you can change your plea at any time that you decide your chances of being acquitted are very bad and a plea deal will give you less time in prison and/or a better prison than if you wait until sentencing.

My guess is they are hoping to challenge/reduce the charges until what is left is something he can plead out of without doing time.  Until they get that, or until it is clear to Josh (and JB) that there is no way he can avoid prison,  he will continue to plead not guilty.

Yup you can change your plea at any time. It is up to the Prosecution to offer a plea deal and they can take it back/make it time limited so the plea deal you get offered the day of the trial after the prosecution has put in a lot of work might not be as nice as the one you get offered earlier. In practice it’s very common to finally take plea deals at what seems like the last minute. Some people just don’t believe it’s really going to happen to them until they are in the court room and then they realize it’s happening and it hits them like a ton of bricks. 

[Alisamer]

16 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

I was also struck by the suggestion that what is tearing up the family is that TLC cancelled the show.

If a TV deal is what's holding your family together, you've got problems from the bottom up, IMO. I hope that this mess makes some of the normal people who used to watch them and just thought "oh, they're that big Christian family, aren't they nice" take a harder look. They're not that Christian, they're not that nice, and they're not that close.

16 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

My guess is they are hoping to challenge/reduce the charges until what is left is something he can plead out of without doing time.  Until they get that, or until it is clear to Josh (and JB) that there is no way he can avoid prison,  he will continue to plead not guilty.

I think you're right. They're likely hoping to get it down to probation or house arrest or something like that if they can't get charges thrown out entirely. Something where he can continue to sit at home and reproduce while also giving him a great excuse not to make any effort to support his own family. Which will be then treated by the family as "see, he didn't do anything that bad, why would they let him not go to prison if he did? See, he's just been tormented by satan but God has blessed him..."

[livinginthelight]

48 minutes ago, Jess said:

 

Yup you can change your plea at any time. It is up to the Prosecution to offer a plea deal and they can take it back/make it time limited so the plea deal you get offered the day of the trial after the prosecution has put in a lot of work might not be as nice as the one you get offered earlier. In practice it’s very common to finally take plea deals at what seems like the last minute. Some people just don’t believe it’s really going to happen to them until they are in the court room and then they realize it’s happening and it hits them like a ton of bricks. 

Agreed.

Once I was on a potential jury panel. We were sent to the courtroom, knocked on the closed door and handed our information packet to the clerk who told us to wait outside. He closed the door again. We waited. And waited. And waited. After what seemed like an hour the clerk came back out and dismissed us, telling us our presence outside the door had put pressure on the defendant, who agreed to a last minute plea deal. I realized there's more than one way that jurors help the system along.

Part of me hopes Josh will plead guilty because I don't want to waste a single cent more on him. And part of me hopes the trial is drawn-out, very public, and very embarrassing to Josh and to the whole family and to the whole fundie movement.

[SPHASH]

Even before the scandals I'm sure there was a lot of fighting and backbiting between family members in laws included.  I remember reading Anna thought Austin was immature which probably pissed off Joy, Joe allegedly stole Kendra from Jed!, Jana was forced to give her music box to Jessa when they were little, and we all know how Derick feels about Boob and Mullet.  As far as splintering I would imagine the Howlers would stick together, same with the buddy teams.  However I can't imagine JD would be close to Jordyn or Josiah and Jenny sticking together.  Once Boob and Mullet are gone there will be major fighting over the family fortune provided there is any left.

[DalmatianCat]

2 hours ago, Jess said:

 

Yup you can change your plea at any time. It is up to the Prosecution to offer a plea deal and they can take it back/make it time limited so the plea deal you get offered the day of the trial after the prosecution has put in a lot of work might not be as nice as the one you get offered earlier. In practice it’s very common to finally take plea deals at what seems like the last minute. Some people just don’t believe it’s really going to happen to them until they are in the court room and then they realize it’s happening and it hits them like a ton of bricks. 

If the prosecution has an air-tight case, would they still offer a plea deal just to be safe? Has one possibly already been offered in this case?

[OHFL2009]

20 minutes ago, DalmatianCat said:

If the prosecution has an air-tight case, would they still offer a plea deal just to be safe? Has one possibly already been offered in this case?

I don't work in the legal profession, but I would imagine a defendant taking a plea deal, especially if it's early in the process. saves the prosecution a lot of work. A lot of preparation goes into trying a case in front of a jury, so if the defendant takes a plea, they can avoid having to do all that extra work.  

[Maggie Mae]

49 minutes ago, OHFL2009 said:

I don't work in the legal profession, but I would imagine a defendant taking a plea deal, especially if it's early in the process. saves the prosecution a lot of work. A lot of preparation goes into trying a case in front of a jury, so if the defendant takes a plea, they can avoid having to do all that extra work.  

It's not just that. At this point, pleas are built into our legal system. (US). If we outlawed them (which we should), every state would be in violation of the Sixth Amendment (Right to a speedy trial.) There aren't enough judges, prosecutors, clerks, etc to give everyone a trial. It's a huge rabbit hole to go down. 

[ifosterkittens]

So everything I'm saying is based on my understanding of what Emily D Baker has said. I'm not a law professional. The judge said Josh has until October 18, 2021 to let her know he is changing his plea, and it has to be done by October 20. His lawyers recently submitted five motions, the government will write their responses, and the judge will rule. The judge may choose to have an evidentiary hearing on some of the motions. The second motion (#37) is moving to have evidence from the search suppressed. Emily said if the judge grants/agrees (not sure of legal terms) with Josh on this motion the government would be forced to dismiss the case because the there would be no evidence. Emily said Josh's attorneys get an A for effort on the argument, but she doesn't agree with it, or think it will work. 

Emily said Josh's attorneys will see how the judge rules on the five motions they submitted. If the judge does not grant any of the motions (meaning all the evidence, statements, etc come in, nothing is suppressed) then she imagines Josh's attorneys will say to Josh it is time to talk about changing your plea. It is a federal case so the judge will determine the sentencing. Emily worked for Los Angeles County, and said at that level the prosecution and defense usually agree to the sentence as part of the plea deal, but this is federal so Josh can change his plea to guilty and Josh's attorneys will argue for the minimum, but it up to the judge to decide what the sentence will be. There are guidelines, and Emily said because this is his first legal offense (remember the stuff with his sisters did not have a legal outcome) he would likely not get the maximum sentence. 

[justoneoftwo]

I work in the legal field and not criminal matter. I would start by saying that there is no airtight case ever. And even if there were prosecutors do offer please a lot of the time to save time and money. I would not be surprised if he ends up with a plea deal and would be rather surprised if he does not.