Edward Might not Get Duke of Edinburgh Title

[MomJeans]

If I were William, I would be supportive of Camilla being Queen Consort because otherwise it sets a precedent for future divorced monarchs to have their second wives or husbands treated as less than.  It will affect William's son, grandchild, and great-grandchild.  No one thinks they will be married more than once, but life happens.  Personally, I wouldn't want to box my descendants in with the precedent.  

Of course, precedent is also why I think Charles needs to give Edward the Edinburgh Dukedom when Charles is King.  Though I don't think Monarchs should make a habit of forcing their will on the next in line monarch, neither do I think it sets a good precedent for the Queen's wishes to be casted aside after it was openly discussed an agreed to.  At the end of the day, monarchists like continuity.  "Losing" the DOE out of the main line is not a big deal.  

[tabitha2]

Plus there is no guarantee James Viscount Severn will have children. Or he might have only daughters. So the title will go back anyway unless the male primogeniture laws change.

[MomJeans]

And it would be unusual, but James could also decide he wants nothing to do with the peerage and disclaim the title when he gets it. 

IMHO though, even if James has a thousand male descendants, I'm okay with the title leaving the main line for a lot of reasons, one of which is that I think Phillip wanted it to be a hereditary peerage.  Whether you liked Phillip or not, you have to agree he wasn't shy about voicing his opinion.  He wanted the DOE to be a hereditary peerage, or we would have heard otherwise.

 

[adidas]

7 hours ago, MomJeans said:

@Tabitha2 is correct that once Charles is King, his wife is legally Queen Consort constitutionally.  Buckingham Palace may only refer to her as the Princess Consort.

She is missing the forest for the trees.

The point here is, Charles’ wife will never be referred to as ‘Queen Camilla’.

[tabitha2]

Don’t say never. All we got is a statement subject to change:) 

 

But whatever she is called she is Queen Consort with all the honors there in,  will Most senior Royal Female and the one who sets the guidelines for all the other Royal women and girls. 

[MamaJunebug]

13 hours ago, MomJeans said:

That said, Charles and William need Sophie and Edward more than ever.  Slighting them would be narrow-minded. 

Short-sighted as well!

[tabitha2]

Charles supposedly wants a smaller monarchy but not i assume one consisting of 4 adults and a couple of very cute but non working young children or octogenarians who probably want and deserve to retire when the Queen goes. 
 

He needs to keep the dutiful hardworking scandal free Edward and Photogenic Amiable popular Sophie. 

[anjulibai]

22 hours ago, MomJeans said:

And it would be unusual, but James could also decide he wants nothing to do with the peerage and disclaim the title when he gets it. 

IMHO though, even if James has a thousand male descendants, I'm okay with the title leaving the main line for a lot of reasons, one of which is that I think Phillip wanted it to be a hereditary peerage.  Whether you liked Phillip or not, you have to agree he wasn't shy about voicing his opinion.  He wanted the DOE to be a hereditary peerage, or we would have heard otherwise.

 

But we did hear what Phillip wanted - for it to go to Edward, which necessitates it being hereditary. 

I just keep thinking about the Duke of Edinburgh Awards in all this, which I don't see brought up enough in articles I have read about this. Edward does it now, but if Charles wants to keep the DOE title or give it to William or one of his kids, does he intend on giving them he awards scheme, too? Shouldn't the DoE Awards be headed by the DoE? Could that also be part of Charles desire for a slimmed down monarchy?

[QuiverFullofBooks]

45 minutes ago, anjulibai said:

But we did hear what Phillip wanted - for it to go to Edward, which necessitates it being hereditary. 

I just keep thinking about the Duke of Edinburgh Awards in all this, which I don't see brought up enough in articles I have read about this. Edward does it now, but if Charles wants to keep the DOE title or give it to William or one of his kids, does he intend on giving them he awards scheme, too? Shouldn't the DoE Awards be headed by the DoE? Could that also be part of Charles desire for a slimmed down monarchy?

Philip wanted Edward to have both the title and the awards, which makes sense for that generation. If Charles wants the awards to continue to be affiliated with the royal family, he might want to give the title and the job to Louis (or have Kate take them over as consort). I think that Philip wanted his descendants through Edward to have both the title and the awards - a nationally prestigious position that is associated with his legacy, rather than the monarchy.

[tabitha2]

Following the normal order of things though Louis will be Duke of York. Being both DoE and York would be excessive. Now he or rather William what could do is do the right thing and Make Charlotte Duchess of E. All equal, all get titles. 

[louisa05]

33 minutes ago, tabitha2 said:

Following the normal order of things though Louis will be Duke of York. Being both DoE and York would be excessive. Now he or rather William what could do is do the right thing and Make Charlotte Duchess of E. All equal, all get titles. 

Louis cannot be Duke of York until Andrew dies. So there is that. 

I think this is much ado about nothing, though, as there has been no indication from official sources or royal reporters with inside sources that this story is true. 

As for giving it to Camilla...technically, she's the Duchess of Edinburgh right now as Charles inherited the title on Philip's death. It also wasn't intended as a consort's title. George VI gave it to Philip on his marriage into the family when he was not consort and it was thought it would be more years until he was. He was given the title "Prince of the United Kingdom" as a consort's title by the Queen in 1957 (having denounced his titles as  Prince of Greece and Denmark in order to marry Elizabeth). As many have said, Camilla will be Queen Consort regardless of how she is known. She is, in fact, Princess of Wales in spite of not being known as such. I suspect that she will be known as Queen Consort as years have past. People need to accept that even if Diana had lived, she and Charles were divorced and she was not going to be his consort regardless. Long past time to move on. 

[Seahorse Wrangler]

If DoE does go to Camilla and is an inheritable title, then it passes out of the BRF to her children.

[louisa05]

12 hours ago, Seahorse Wrangler said:

If DoE does go to Camilla and is an inheritable title, then it passes out of the BRF to her children.

She’s DOE right now. Literally. It was always an inheritable title and Charles inherited it. 
As a female consort, she will be titled Queen Consort. Because patriarchy, women marrying into the family receive titles based on their husband’s titles. Men who marry in do not. Thus, Meghan is Duchess of Sussex and Princess Henry while Jack Brooksbank is…Jack Brooksbank. Philip would had no title at all so George VI gave him a dukedom on marriage. It wasn’t a title for a consort. Suddenly making it one would be very odd and highly unlikely. 

[QuiverFullofBooks]

16 hours ago, Seahorse Wrangler said:

If DoE does go to Camilla and is an inheritable title, then it passes out of the BRF to her children.

I expect it could be a new creation as a life peerage, though there’s never been a life dukedom. But as others have said, she’s already duchess of Edinburgh, so she could just start using it when she loses the Cornwall title. Depending on how quickly Charles makes William Prince of Wales (it’s not automatic), William could be the duke of Cambridge and Cornwall for a while.

[louisa05]

8 hours ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

I expect it could be a new creation as a life peerage, though there’s never been a life dukedom. But as others have said, she’s already duchess of Edinburgh, so she could just start using it when she loses the Cornwall title. Depending on how quickly Charles makes William Prince of Wales (it’s not automatic), William could be the duke of Cambridge and Cornwall for a while.

William will still  be Duke of Cambridge and Cornwall as Prince of Wales. Those two don’t go away. Charles is Duke of Edinburgh and Cornwall as well as Prince of Wales. He’s also Duke of Rothesay, Barron of Renfrew, Earl of Carrick, Lord of the Isles, Prince and Steward of Scotland, Earl of Merioneth, and Baron Greenwich. 
 

[SweetJuly]

3 hours ago, louisa05 said:

William will still  be Duke of Cambridge and Cornwall as Prince of Wales. Those two don’t go away. Charles is Duke of Edinburgh and Cornwall as well as Prince of Wales. He’s also Duke of Rothesay, Barron of Renfrew, Earl of Carrick, Lord of the Isles, Prince and Steward of Scotland, Earl of Merioneth, and Baron Greenwich. 
 

You forgot Father of Dragons and Protector of the Realm. 

[EmCatlyn]

On 7/12/2021 at 9:47 PM, adidas said:

I saw that too and wondered how much truth there was to it. It seems like there’s a lot of hearsay and conjecture. 

To be honest, the Duke of Ed award is so highly esteemed that there would be a lot of protesting if they even changed the name. It is prestigious! It’s an enormous commitment and undertaking that I can understand being upset if you’re halfway through. And Edward has already started attending those ceremonies. 

I think they could keep the award even there was no new Duke of Edinburgh. It could be still called that, regardless of who ran it, in memory of the creator of the award.

However, I honestly can’t think of any good reason that Charles would not give Edward the title. It has been planned for years, Edward is already a royal so it would not add to the number of royals, which is the main reason that people give when they speculate Charles will do/not do something connected to titles and positions.  It makes no sense. ??‍♀️

I couldn’t read the whole Times article (paywall) but it looks, from other sources quoting it, as though the Times got the information from a couple of unnamed “friends of Charles.”  The friends may be just speculating — giving opinions rather than having any real knowledge.  Or the friends may be speaking up to see the reaction of the public.

I hope Charles sees what a stupid move it would be.

 

[EmCatlyn]

On 7/14/2021 at 3:04 PM, QuiverFullofBooks said:

My first thought was to be skeptical and think it was clickbait. Except that this is the Times of London, which doesn’t do clickbait (literally - there’s a paywall). It’s definitely the source Charles would choose if he wanted to leak the news in response to the Wessexes’ interviews. My guess is that he’s decided to give the title to Louis or leave it up to William to do so. Charles wants the title to stay with his line of descent, and he wants the Wessexes to fade into obscurity once the Cambridge children are grown.

ETA: I had a thought. Charles is saving it for Camilla to hold in her own right. (Louis can have it after she dies.) People are used to that being the consort’s title. Because the duke of Cornwall is the sovereign’s oldest son (if the sovereign doesn’t have a son, there isn’t a duke of Cornwall), Camilla loses her title the moment the queen dies. Charles may try to make her queen, but he might not, and she’s definitely not going to be HRH Princess Camilla. 

That’s an interesting possibility:  If Camilla can’t be Queen, make her Duchess of Edinburgh.  

However, even if she isn’t Queen, she would still have various titles that the King holds, including Duchess of Lancaster. ? That title actually has a great history for a woman who was a mistress first.

Back in the time of Chaucer, the king’s son, John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster, married his mistress, Katherine Swynford.  She was the last Duchess of Lancaster, in fact, because when John of Gaunt’s son, Henry IV took the crown, the Duchy of Lancaster became merged with the crown.  (No need to go into the War of Roses here, but suffice it to say that the present royal family, and many others, are descended from John of Gaunt and Katherine.)

Okay, so back to Camilla, she could be Her Royal Highness the Duchess of Lancaster, Princess Consort if she isn’t queen.  The Edinburgh title is not needed for her.

 

On 7/16/2021 at 2:15 PM, tabitha2 said:

Following the normal order of things though Louis will be Duke of York. Being both DoE and York would be excessive. Now he or rather William what could do is do the right thing and Make Charlotte Duchess of E. All equal, all get titles. 

Is the York title restricted to males?  I would think it could go to Charlotte otherwise.  Of course, she will be Princess Royal, surely, after Anne dies.

All this speculation is fun, but I think Edward should get the Edinburgh title for life but with reversion to the crown afterwards.  It would be the right thing for Charles to do, and maybe it’s the last part (reversion to the crown instead of inherited by Edward’s heirs) that is being ironed out now and giving cause to the rumors.

[EmCatlyn]

This article in Vanity Fair says that the Prince of Wales office denies that there are plans regarding the Duke of Edinburgh title.

https://www.vanityfair.com/style/2021/07/prince-charles-give-prince-edward-duke-of-edinburgh-title-when-he-takes-throne

[tabitha2]

1 hour ago, EmCatlyn said:

 

 

Is the York title restricted to males?  I would think it could go to Charlotte otherwise.  Of course, she will be Princess Royal, surely, after Anne dies.

 

 
Like virtually all peerages it’s strictly male to male and Unless something happens to Louis it’s his birthright as the second son. If they don’t change the inheritance traditions in coming years Charlotte will eventually be Princess Royal and then most likely eventually Princess Charlotte, Mrs. Uppercrust J Twattingworth  as her Cousins are Styled 

Only way she gets a title of her own is on the off chance she marries a nobleman and becomes Lady or Duchess so and so. 

William could attempt to reconfigure the whole system  of course but I would not hold my breath. He probably hopes to have  a fairly traditional quiet reign  with some modernization but no controversy and to keep all relatives on the same page about what’s expected of them as working royals

[EmCatlyn]

10 minutes ago, tabitha2 said:

 
Like virtually all peerages it’s strictly male to male and Unless something happens to Louis it’s his birthright as the second son. If they don’t change the inheritance traditions in coming years Charlotte will eventually be Princess Royal and then most likely eventually Princess Charlotte, Mrs. Uppercrust J Twattingworth  as her Cousins are Styled 

Only way she gets a title of her own is on the off chance she marries a nobleman and becomes Lady or Duchess so and so. 

William could attempt to reconfigure the whole system  of course but I would not hold my breath. He probably hopes to have  a fairly traditional quiet reign  with some modernization but no controversy and to keep all relatives on the same page about what’s expected of them as working royals

I was just looking it up, and it appears that the Duke of York title will stay with Andrew until his death.  If he had sons, the eldest son would inherit it; as it is, the title will become extinct.   The title would have to be recreated for whoever gets it next.  At the time it would not be impossible to (a) make a female eligible (there are a few peerages that pass on to daughters) and (b) convert to a life peerage.

It seems to me, in fact, that life peerages are increasingly the way to go.  It can recognize one specific person without carrying on to descendants until the line dies out.

The tradition that the oldest son becomes Prince of Wales and the second son becomes Duke of York is a strong one, but presumably if George’s eldest child is a daughter, she should be styled Princess of Wales in her own right.  So maybe they will change these titles to fit more with the reality of inheritance.

[tabitha2]

Interestingly Every single Duke of York but the first has either died without male heirs or gone on to become King. Fate has been downscaling the monarchy all along

 

[viii]

It annoys me that in 2021, Charlotte cannot have a duchy in her own right while her brothers can. 

[EmCatlyn]

39 minutes ago, tabitha2 said:

Interestingly Every single Duke of York but the first has either died without male heirs or gone on to become King. Fate has been downscaling the monarchy all along

 

Actually, the first Duke of York passed the title on to his son, and this second Duke of York’s heir (his nephew) was able to pass the title to his son.  When his son became king of England (Edward the IV) the title merged with the crown and had to be recreated for Edward’s son.  But this was a formality, since it was essentially going from father to (younger) son.  This Duke of York was one of the Princes in the Tower and did not live to adulthood.  This is where the passing on from duke to heir stops.   (As it happens, I was just reading some stuff about the War of the Roses yesterday, so this is fresh in my mind.)

The next Duke of York (a new creation) was the son of Henry VII (the first Tudor king) and his queen, who was the daughter of Edward IV.  This son became Henry VIII.  And from then on, as you say, every Duke of York either has no sons or becomes king.  

At one point long ago it was speculated that if Andrew were to die young, Harry (then just a kid) might be created Duke of York since as Charles’s second son the title would traditionally go to him.  Clearly that didn’t happen, and even if Andrew dies before Charles, it is highly unlikely that Harry would get the title.?

 

47 minutes ago, viii said:

It annoys me that in 2021, Charlotte cannot have a duchy in her own right while her brothers can. 

I think she could if they opened it to women when they create the new duchy.  It all has to go through a procedure so they may as well change who can hold the title.  However, since most titles are inherited (not freshly created), and it is a complicated process to change things, it’s much less likely to happen for regular peerages.

[tabitha2]

It’s a complicated time consuming process to placate a tiny handful of privileged people when there is no very strong/rapidly growing movement  yet for a change in inheritance law in the first place. With the state of the world and The Uk  now it’s so trivial IMO.