Meghan and Harry 7: Recollections May Vary

[Seahorse Wrangler]

17 minutes ago, Pleiades_06 said:

No, it was really racist. And people on this thread still seem to be forgetting/downplaying that.

This so much this

But no the British press didn't have double standards..

[PoppyPeace]

52 minutes ago, Pleiades_06 said:

No, it was really racist. And people on this thread still seem to be forgetting/downplaying that.

The British tabloids? 

I am not disagreeing with you, but to me it seemed that the media, the British tabloids in particular, were insinuating the royal family was being racist. I say speculating because the royal family is pretty darned private and I don’t recall them making a public statement that was racist. The media on the other hand seemed to take it as an opportunity to make money based on the fact that she was bi-racial.

 

I could be wrong and missing something, but the British tabloids are notoriously awful to the royals. 
 

The paparazzi is awful in general.  Look how they treated Britney Spears or Paris Hilton. It’s because people love to hate on celebrities and would rather read negative press than anything positive. When Meghan came along, Kate was old news. Kate had shots up her dress taken, her family was treated as people who were only out for the title, her family’s successful business was insulted. Kate didn’t come from a disadvantaged background, but you would believe so when she was called a commoner. When she was pregnant she was criticized for being too thin, only to find out she was suffering from hyperemesis gravidarum. She looked too good after she had a baby, never mind it is wild that the royal women are expected to present their child to the world shortly after giving birth. The list goes on. 
 

I do think it the early days of Kate and Wills dating, media was very different than it is now and I do think the paps were awful to Di, Kate and Meghan. 
 

Di was killed while being chased by the paparazzi!! 

Edited September 17, 2021 by PoppyPeace
Typo

[viii]

Meghan was shamed for things that Kate wasn’t and yes, her race played a huge part in that. The British media generally laved over Kate while she was pregnant and yet criticized Meghan over the tiniest details (avocadogate).

Kate was treated horribly in the media too, the whole Waitey Katie bit and even once she was married, her and William were (rightfully) marked as lazy with engagements and royal duties. 

But I’m not sure you can separate Meghan’s race from the issues because without being bi-racial, it’s likely she wouldn’t have been dragged for certain things. 

Edited September 17, 2021 by viii

[EmCatlyn]

2 hours ago, Pleiades_06 said:

No, it was really racist. And people on this thread still seem to be forgetting/downplaying that.

FWIW, many of us in the US do not have easy access to the British tabloids, so we have only a general (mostly second-hand) idea of what they had to say.

I don’t think that it is downplaying the racism to suggest that no matter her race, the press would have gone after Meghan.  That she was an American, older than Harry and a strong woman would have been enough.

I do believe you that there was a lot of racist coverage.

[Grandma D]

3 hours ago, Seahorse Wrangler said:

This so much this

But no the British press didn't have double standards..

None of this related to her race. One good example why Meghan put herself out as a target is Louis christening photo. The dress code was blue and white! Look at what Meghan is wearing! 

Edited September 17, 2021 by Grandma D

[just_ordinary]

1 hour ago, viii said:

Meghan was shamed for things that Kate wasn’t and yes, her race played a huge part in that. The British media generally laved over Kate while she was pregnant and yet criticized Meghan over the tiniest details (avocadogate).

Kate was treated horribly in the media too, the whole Waitey Katie bit and even once she was married, her and William were (rightfully) marked as lazy with engagements and royal duties. 

But I’m not sure you can separate Meghan’s race from the issues because without being bi-racial, it’s likely she wouldn’t have been dragged for certain things. 

There were two articles that went down the racist track (Compton/exotic). And the reporter who got fired after the circus ape comparison. And they are the three examples that get repeated every time. All the rest of the undoubtably racist stuff I saw was on blogs, yt, Twitter, thread boards and comment sections. Still doesn’t make it ok, but people highly overestimated the amount of racist British press coverage. The racism showed it’s ugly head elsewhere. What the tabloids should have done though is taking care of their own comment sections. That’s were they are really guilty because they supported a racist environment in exchange for clicks and engagement. 
 

Re: Kate. Waity Kaity, the wisteria sisters and her “lack of breeding” were probably hurtful but they are not nearly the worst or most damaging narratives. The lazy Duchess, her spending habits, faking HG, getting pregnant again twice only to prevent working, withholding the children from Charles, withholding the children from the public/not preparing them for their future, being a bully, hating women, being a serial flasher and utterly disgraceful, being reprimanded by the Queen constantly, Queen hates her shoes, her horrible posture, a complete failure in meetings with high ranking guests, stupid, Duchess of Keen/DoLittle, being too thin/anorexic/bulimic, being a horrible role model for young impressionable women, the big anti-feminist….. that went on for years and years (after George till after Charlotte was the worst period). Constantly showing off her bump was in there as well by the way. She could do absolutely nothing right. You would think she and Wiliam were about to destroy the monarchy single handed (and that was an actual line of discussion in some places).

It only was when Meghan appeared that suddenly Kate could do no wrong, never put a foot wrong and was the epitome of grace. And of course she was shamed for different and also the same stuff? Some articles read like complete copies only with the name swapped, others played hard at the Kate vs Meghan narrative. But that was to be expected. Kate was lucky she had no predecessor. Very much like Fergie that could only ever loose against Diana.

RE:the bold. Might be, but in that case she would have been dragged through the mud for different stuff. Meghan could have been a white, blonde, highly educated aristo daughter- the tabloids and online world would have found as much shit to say about her regardless. It would have just been different shit. 

[just_ordinary]

And to add: in the beginnings the tabloids celebrated Meghan. The glamour against Kate’s frump. The accomplished against Kate’s lack of professional experience. The media expert against Kate’s bad public speeches and stiff demeanour. The work ethic against Kate’s laziness.

I think H&M were blinded by the years of praise he got in the press (especially against his boring, stiff and snobbish brother) and than the hype around them. When the wind turned eventually they couldn’t deal with it.

Edited September 17, 2021 by just_ordinary

[Grandma D]

Currently in Greece and was on a dive boat with a woman from London. When asked about Charles becoming king she said she wished they'd skip him and also said she thinks Harry and Meghan are a joke. 

[viii]

10 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

There were two articles that went down the racist track (Compton/exotic). And the reporter who got fired after the circus ape comparison. And they are the three examples that get repeated every time. All the rest of the undoubtably racist stuff I saw was on blogs, yt, Twitter, thread boards and comment sections. Still doesn’t make it ok, but people highly overestimated the amount of racist British press coverage. The racism showed it’s ugly head elsewhere. What the tabloids should have done though is taking care of their own comment sections. That’s were they are really guilty because they supported a racist environment in exchange for clicks and engagement. 

People don't have to say the n word to be racist. You don't have to refer to Meghan as Compton or exotic to be racist. The fact that Meghan got dragged for things that Kate (or any other royal woman) didn't is racist. Point blank. 

1 hour ago, Grandma D said:

Currently in Greece and was on a dive boat with a woman from London. When asked about Charles becoming king she said she wished they'd skip him and also said she thinks Harry and Meghan are a joke. 

Cool, nobody cares what a random lady on a boat thinks. 

[just_ordinary]

2 minutes ago, viii said:

People don't have to say the n word to be racist. You don't have to refer to Meghan as Compton or exotic to be racist. The fact that Meghan got dragged for things that Kate (or any other royal woman) didn't is racist. Point blank. 

Cool, nobody cares what a random lady on a boat thinks. 

So…. everything that a black person gets criticised for that the white relative in law didn’t get flack for is racist? And what exactly was it that Kate didn’t get shit for? Apart from the avocados? People bitched about her cradling her bump in her first two pregnancies as well. As well as spending obscene amounts of money, dressing inappropriately and alienating her husband from his family. It just happened a few years prior.

Edited September 17, 2021 by just_ordinary

[viii]

Do you have receipts about Kate getting dragged for anything pregnancy related? Majority of the covers I saw praised Kate for 'sweetly cuddling' her bump and other asinine things, whereas Meghan got the 'can't leave her bump alone' headlines. 

This article is a good example of how usually Kate but some other royal women as well got a much different treatment than Meghan, even dating back to 2011: https://www.boredpanda.com/uk-media-double-standarts-royal-meghan-markle-kate-middleton/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=organic

Edited September 17, 2021 by viii

[tabitha2]

In the press Fergie was the Duchess of Pork, Camilla was horribly reviled for literally years and Kate was a lazy clinger but any Criticism Meghan gets is because of Racism!1!  
 

That’s some Bull Shit Nonsense Meghan Leg Humpers use as go to to excuse her behavior and choices. 

[viii]

13 minutes ago, tabitha2 said:

In the press Fergie was the Duchess of Pork, Camilla was horribly reviled for literally years and Kate was a lazy clinger but any Criticism Meghan gets is because of Racism!1!  
 

That’s some Bull Shit Nonsense Meghan Leg Humpers use as go to to excuse her behavior and choices. 

Once again, you've missed the point. 

Nobody is denying that Camilla, Fergie, Kate, etc weren't treated horribly by the press. They most certainly were. And trust me - Meghan does deserve some criticism for some of her choices, I don't think anybody in this thread is denying that. But when you compare the criticism Meghan receives for CERTAIN things that other royal women have done (and got zero flack for), that's when it's obvious that racism is evident. 

[just_ordinary]

That’s the result of a very superficial research of stuff that’s around 7-10 years in past. Please note, that for some articles the dynamite lies in the text and not the headline. See also a small selection of comments. Those are not the worst, but many hate blogs have shut down or cleaned house. Let’s just say, if you look for worse stuff you will find it after some digging including some very disgusting insults.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

I think we also need to distinguish between coverage that went on when everyone was playing along with the whole BRF scheme. The second H&M slapped the media and called them racist they bit back and after stepping back they were free game. As W&K didn’t do that you cannot compare headlines after this in my opinion. But I will definitely agree with you that after this, M&H coverage got really really bad (sometimes by pure vitriol sometimes through their own stupidity). And of course there was racism. I just argue that it was found 90% somewhere else than what people make it out to be. Did the tabloids indirectly supported a racist tone in their comment section? Yes. Did they write racist article’s themselves? Just a handful. Still out of line but light years away from the claim of constant racist coverage. Heck, even two thirds of Oprah’s headlines weren’t British. 

24 minutes ago, viii said:

Once again, you've missed the point. 

Nobody is denying that Camilla, Fergie, Kate, etc weren't treated horribly by the press. They most certainly were. And trust me - Meghan does deserve some criticism for some of her choices, I don't think anybody in this thread is denying that. But when you compare the criticism Meghan receives for CERTAIN things that other royal women have done (and got zero flack for), that's when it's obvious that racism is evident. 

I still ask you, what exactly was M criticised for that Kate had not endured at one point? 

[viii]

39 minutes ago, just_ordinary said:

I still ask you, what exactly was M criticised for that Kate had not endured at one point? 

1. How they touched their bumps in public

2. The whole ridiculous avocado debate 

3. Wedding flowers

4. Air fresheners for the wedding

5. Private companies with their own merch

6. Christmas with the in-laws

7. The Queen missing christenings

There's plenty of criticisms if you look for them and I'm sorry, but I will never not believe that there isn't a racial slant to them. Again, you don't have to use slurs in order to be racist. The fact that half of these were even made to be "issues" says enough. 

[EmCatlyn]

19 minutes ago, viii said:

. . . when you compare the criticism Meghan receives for CERTAIN things that other royal women have done (and got zero flack for), that's when it's obvious that racism is evident. 

Even if Meghan has consistently been condemned for the same things that were tolerated in other royal women, can we say for sure that this greater intolerance was due to racism?  Could it not be partly prejudice against an American combined with a dislike of the way she came across as a person?

Take the “baby bump” comments, for example.  I read the comment about how Meghan touched her baby bump as a perception of her as somehow self-centered while a parallel comment about Kate suggested that her action was a nurturing one.  I don’t think race had anything to do with it.

Meghan would have had bad press even if she had been the WASP daughter of an earl.  Her age, the fact that she was divorced, the fact that she was American, her independence, her assertiveness, etc. would have been criticized regardless of her race.  She brought bigger “baggage” to her marriage than Kate (who was preparing to marry William from the time they were both in college). She would have been an outsider regardless of her race.

Again, I am not saying that there was no racism. What I am saying is that not every negative response to Meghan was prompted by racism.  To explain most of Meghan’s problems as due to racism is to oversimplify and distort a complex situation. 

[tabitha2]

There is always going to be some somewhere that has a stupid nonsensical  gripes or issues with public people. The inter googles just gives the losers who care about avocados air fresheners  a voice for 5 min at most.  I would not even classify this petty shit as real criticism just grousing. Being made fun of for being fat, a home-wrecking drunken witch  or a gold digger who set out to catch a prince is though  
 

 

[louisa05]

You can play this game both ways, though. Things Kate has been criticized for that Meghan has not: 

Wearing wedges

Not wearing her engagement ring

Wearing her hair down at her wedding

Wearing dark nail polish to an event

The earrings she wore at Archie's Christening. 

The dress she wore at Archie's Christening

The dress she wore at H&M's wedding

Leaving the hospital too early after giving birth

Wearing nice clothes for photos after giving birth (and think of the backlash that would have happened if she had not...that was a no-win)

Not wearing black to the BAFTAs

Having HG while pregnant

Taking her maternity leaves

For the menu choices at her wedding

Because her uncle is a dumbass

Because Pippa didn't invite Meghan to her wedding ceremony

The color of her dress at the diamond jubilee river procession (never mind she blended into the boat)

Her parents's previous jobs

For having a third child (Harry even indirectly chimed in on that one)

Not having polished toenails

Then there's the entire "What Kate Wore" empire in which her wardrobe is daily picked apart, and she is criticized for the most miniscule details like a thread hanging or nearly unseeable wrinkle somewhere and routinely body shamed by commenters. Meanwhile, the same person runs a "What Meghan Wore" site that allows zero criticism at all. 

And we can't forget the Hilary Mantel article calling her a "plastic princess" and  a "jointed doll on which rags are hung" and saying her only purpose in life is to give birth. 

But obviously, none of it is cruel or unnecessary. Because pigmentation.  

 

 

[viii]

Again, the point has sailed over your head, but I'm unsurprised. 

[EmCatlyn]

1 hour ago, viii said:

1. How they touched their bumps in public

2. The whole ridiculous avocado debate 

3. Wedding flowers

4. Air fresheners for the wedding

5. Private companies with their own merch

6. Christmas with the in-laws

7. The Queen missing christenings

There's plenty of criticisms if you look for them and I'm sorry, but I will never not believe that there isn't a racial slant to them. Again, you don't have to use slurs in order to be racist. The fact that half of these were even made to be "issues" says enough. 

A problem with this list (based on the Buzzfeed article, I believe) is that it selectively focuses on instances where Meghan got condemned and Kate wasn’t.  Unless we also get examples of cases where they were both condemned and at least a handful of cases where Meghan has been treated better than Kate, I am going to question the objectivity.

(As I am writing this I see that @louisa05 has just posted a list of things that Kate has been criticized for but  Meghan hasn’t.  👍)

Further, none of the items on the list seem to be connected to attitudes about race.  I entirely agree that racism is expressed by more than racial slurs, but I would argue that if a criticism leveled at Meghan would apply even if she was a WASP, then it is not “racist.”

To clarify: you can argue that Meghan was treated more harshly/held to higher standards because of racism, but I don’t think the specific cases show racism.   

Edited September 17, 2021 by EmCatlyn
Fix several typos

[Manda]

I'll posit that it wasn't just that Meghan was American, but that she was Hollywood related.

Also, is there an equivalent photo of Kate deliberately posing for a photo double handed cradling the bump?  For me that's a major difference in the bump touching. We criticize the fundies all the time for a hand going too far under the bump.  Everyone else is fair game, too. 

[tabitha2]

There is difference between touching your pregnant belly and constantly clutching and caressing  it like it’s going to fall out. 

[Pleiades_06]

Why are people here comparing the criticism of Kate to that of Meghan in order to somehow explain/justify what happened to Meghan „wasn’t so bad?“

All the criticism of both women is horrible. But the specific racist comments about Meghan border into hate speech. And those comments affect all biracial people when they because they reinforce tropes and stereotypes that BIPOC have to deal with all the time. 

[EmCatlyn]

2 minutes ago, Pleiades_06 said:

Why are people here comparing the criticism of Kate to that of Meghan in order to somehow explain/justify what happened to Meghan „wasn’t so bad?“

All the criticism of both women is horrible. But the specific racist comments about Meghan border into hate speech. And those comments affect all biracial people when they because they reinforce tropes and stereotypes that BIPOC have to deal with all the time. 

I agree that all the criticism of both women is bad.  And I agree that “specific racist comments about Meghan” are totally wrong and that there is no excuse.

My impression about the “Meghan’s treatment versus Kate’s treatment” discussion is not that anyone is saying that Meghan’s treatment “wasn’t so bad,” but that, if Kate was also treated badly, Meghan’s treatment was not caused by racism.  (Obviously this would exclude racist comments and attitudes which Meghan experienced.)

Distinguishing between when a person is treated badly because of racism or treated badly for some other reason (sexism, jingoism, attitudes towards celebrities, etc) is important.  When we appear to think that any criticism of a person of color is caused by racism, we weaken the strength of the cases that are really about race.

I think that Meghan did experience racism — However, when she implied in the Oprah interview that Archie was not made a prince because of his mixed race (and alleged that he was denied security as a result), she was provably mistaken.  This sort of thing weakens her position when she has a real example of racism to complain about.

[Pleiades_06]

24 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

Distinguishing between when a person is treated badly because of racism or treated badly for some other reason (sexism, jingoism, attitudes towards celebrities, etc) is important.  When we appear to think that any criticism of a person of color is caused by racism, we weaken the strength of the cases that are really about race.

But who is deciding this? Because historically, BIPOC have said something is racist only to have white people say, nope. Everyone is treated this way. It’s in your head. You misconstrued it. 
There is an intersection of racism with everything you listed there. It’s entirely possible to be racist *and* sexist at the same time, in a way only black women experience. The only people who get to decide if something is racist are the people it’s directed towards. So if Meghan says it’s racist, I believe her. Period. Why even bother debating this?