Meghan and Harry 7: Recollections May Vary

[TN-peach]

7 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Yeah but Meghan also did not seem ready to accept the changes to her life and sit down and learn about what was expected. I lived in England and I worked with titled folk in the City at a financial firm. It was really easy to have conversations with them about the expectations of aristocracy and all the silliness that entails.  All three guys (think baron, baronet and earl level first and second sons) were pretty laidback compared to what one would expect and fairly gossipy. I think if Meghan has bothered to ASK rather than just go about her business as a D lister would in the US, she would have been fine. Kate could have been help and an ally - Kate is middle class but really a generation  from working class. She would have been able to help Meghan adjust if that was what Meghan wanted.

Not only that but didn't the Queen have one of her trusted aids work in Sussex household as a way to show support and to help the new person ease into the Family and the Institution. 

[nelliebelle1197]

7 minutes ago, viii said:

I think it's easy to say in theory she should have just asked and she would have been fine, but in practice it's much more difficult than that. She had a lot stacked against her and from her POV, her race played a huge part in it. Perhaps the UK thinks more of class than race, but Meghan isn't British and so her perspective is that of an American, where race is more obvious than class. We don't know that she didn't ask for help, either. I do think it's likely she went into it with certain ideas in her head and didn't want to back down from her ideals when they refused to play out, but I do think her heart was (mostly) in the right place. 

Kate's a trickier item. On one hand, yes, she would be the perfect ally. She lived as a girlfriend for ten years and had plenty of practice with the tabloids and media invading her life. She knew exactly what it cost her to marry William and she knows what's expected of her. However, sometimes people just don't jive for whatever reason. I've read studies that state you automatically dislike 25% of the people you meet for no reason - you just don't like them. That could be the case with Meghan and Kate. 

I think it's also likely that Meghan prides herself on being a feminist and probably thought very little of Kate, who waited around ten years to get a ring on her finger without working very much. Kate has formed her entire identity into being William's girlfriend and now wife and mother. She's not exactly the ideal idol for feminism. I still like her, she's fairly harmless, but let's call a spade a spade. 

I didn't think he was allowed to use his HRH titles after his departure? 

Like seriously - where is their PR team? Where is somebody who will sit Harry down and be like 'you're not coming off as a poor, martyr victim - you look like a colossal crybaby'. I just don't understand why nobody is advising them properly! They need to find a new PR team ASAP. 

I get that but I still think as an adult with experience in the world, she did have an obligation to understand what she was getting into. And anyone who has read a tabloid anywhere would get that. There are also books she could have read and basic research. And even if she and Kate did not get along, Meghan could still ask her basic questions. 
 

I am going to push back a bit because I don’t think you meant to imply that Kate cannot be a feminist because she chose to get married. If Meghan looked down on that, she is not much of a feminist herself. That is toxic feminism, where one judges cred by choices that don’t mesh with another woman’s choice. Kate chose the life she wanted for whatever reason. She held off on kids until she knew her daughter of born first would be queen, so I am not really sure that is particularly fair. 

To be honest on the PR- I think this mess IS the PR team and they suck. 

Edited June 25, 2021 by nelliebelle1197

[EmCatlyn]

2 hours ago, Topaz said:

I’ve read that the dogs are quite badly behaved, although I don’t know how accurate the story was. So they might be assholes but if so it’s probably the fault of the humans that didn’t train them properly.

Of course that might be fake news distributed by the Windsor cat network. It’s been dogs, dogs, dogs for decades now and the cats are surely tired of waiting for their turn in the spotlight.

I am sure the Windsor cats are way too smart to want to be in the spotlight. ? (I have heard that the queen’s dogs may bite people.)

[nelliebelle1197]

Just now, EmCatlyn said:

I am sure the Windsor cats are way too smart to want to be in the spotlight. ? (I have heard that the queen’s dogs may bite people.)

The cats are probably jerks like “Princess Michael of Racist Brooches”.

[kachuu]

35 minutes ago, viii said:

/snipped

I didn't think he was allowed to use his HRH titles after his departure? 

Like seriously - where is their PR team? Where is somebody who will sit Harry down and be like 'you're not coming off as a poor, martyr victim - you look like a colossal crybaby'. I just don't understand why nobody is advising them properly! They need to find a new PR team ASAP. 

Doesn't his legal UK documents have that title on them? Maybe it's a clerical thing that you can't simply change it on a whim but match other official documents.

[louisa05]

33 minutes ago, viii said:

I think it's easy to say in theory she should have just asked and she would have been fine, but in practice it's much more difficult than that. She had a lot stacked against her and from her POV, her race played a huge part in it. Perhaps the UK thinks more of class than race, but Meghan isn't British and so her perspective is that of an American, where race is more obvious than class. We don't know that she didn't ask for help, either. I do think it's likely she went into it with certain ideas in her head and didn't want to back down from her ideals when they refused to play out, but I do think her heart was (mostly) in the right place. 

Kate's a trickier item. On one hand, yes, she would be the perfect ally. She lived as a girlfriend for ten years and had plenty of practice with the tabloids and media invading her life. She knew exactly what it cost her to marry William and she knows what's expected of her. However, sometimes people just don't jive for whatever reason. I've read studies that state you automatically dislike 25% of the people you meet for no reason - you just don't like them. That could be the case with Meghan and Kate. 

I think it's also likely that Meghan prides herself on being a feminist and probably thought very little of Kate, who waited around ten years to get a ring on her finger without working very much. Kate has formed her entire identity into being William's girlfriend and now wife and mother. She's not exactly the ideal idol for feminism. I still like her, she's fairly harmless, but let's call a spade a spade. 

I didn't think he was allowed to use his HRH titles after his departure? 

Like seriously - where is their PR team? Where is somebody who will sit Harry down and be like 'you're not coming off as a poor, martyr victim - you look like a colossal crybaby'. I just don't understand why nobody is advising them properly! They need to find a new PR team ASAP. 

Kate literally lost a job because the press was staking out the building and harassing everyone she worked with. But do blame that on her and not the press that H&M are so concerned about. 
And do ignore all the long term projects she’s worked on. I understand that they’re not as impressive as rising to the heights of feminism by signing a massive contract to do a podcast and making one episode. That Markle work ethic blazing the way for women everywhere to never follow through 

[Xanariel]

12 minutes ago, viii said:

I think it's easy to say in theory she should have just asked and she would have been fine, but in practice it's much more difficult than that. She had a lot stacked against her and from her POV, her race played a huge part in it. Perhaps the UK thinks more of class than race, but Meghan isn't British and so her perspective is that of an American, where race is more obvious than class. We don't know that she didn't ask for help, either. I do think it's likely she went into it with certain ideas in her head and didn't want to back down from her ideals when they refused to play out, but I do think her heart was (mostly) in the right place. 

Kate's a trickier item. On one hand, yes, she would be the perfect ally. She lived as a girlfriend for ten years and had plenty of practice with the tabloids and media invading her life. She knew exactly what it cost her to marry William and she knows what's expected of her. However, sometimes people just don't jive for whatever reason. I've read studies that state you automatically dislike 25% of the people you meet for no reason - you just don't like them. That could be the case with Meghan and Kate. 

I think it's also likely that Meghan prides herself on being a feminist and probably thought very little of Kate, who waited around ten years to get a ring on her finger without working very much. Kate has formed her entire identity into being William's girlfriend and now wife and mother. She's not exactly the ideal idol for feminism. I still like her, she's fairly harmless, but let's call a spade a spade. 

I got the impression from Finding Freedom that Meghan actually went in essentially expecting to be best buds with Kate from the jump and was pretty put out when that didn't happen. There's quite a few references to Meghan being disappointed that Kate wasn't present in her initial meeting with William and that, while Kate after their first meeting told her she could reach out if she needed anything, Meghan felt that Kate should have proactively been checking in with her rather than just sending flowers for her birthday. 

I think the issue is that they're just very different people. Kate by all accounts is a fairly shy and introverted woman who would have been just as happy with her sister's life - stay at home wife to a rich guy - and whose main friendships date back to her school and uni days. 

Meghan in contrast is someone who apparently comes on very strongly (not a bad thing - her networking skills are awesome and she should run a class) and makes a thing of doing over the top gestures like personalised gift baskets and effusive calligraphic cards. She definitely gloms on to people a little bit - Amal and George Clooney were apparently invited to her wedding with little prior connection and Reese Witherspoon claimed to have received an invite that she declined because she didn't know them well at all.

So I think Meghan was a little put out when an instant friendship didn't materialise - we know she immediately leaked Kate not offering her a lift. And on Kate's part, it seemed like she felt her initial offer to Meghan - and taking flowers around after the fitting bust-up was sufficient and was content to leave it to Meghan to come to her rather than make the big gestures that were more Meghan's language. 

FF also said that Meghan had tried to make eye contact with Kate at the Commonwealth ceremony (after they'd announced their exit and the Sussexes threw a strop over not having a place in the procession like the Cambridges, leading Will and Kate to give up their places to keep the peace) only to be ignored. So I think there's a bit of an issue with not reading the room in that instance. 

[EmCatlyn]

2 hours ago, kachuu said:

Doesn't his legal UK documents have that title on them? Maybe it's a clerical thing that you can't simply change it on a whim but match other official documents.

It seems very odd to use a title as a first name.    

I would have thought first name “Henry” was a no-brainer.  He is Henry Mountbatten-Windsor Duke of Sussex.  What you pick for “last name” is open to debate, but first name shouldn’t be confused with title. When Harry and William were in the military, they used “Wales” as their family name, but they kept their “given” names.

I was just thinking the whole Meghan-Harry narrative would make a wonderful Gilbert and Sullivan style operetta.  ?  Much better than the “Finding Freedom” movie is likely to be.

—

ETA:  Found a link to a copy of the birth certificate.

It appears he used Duke of Sussex as first name, HRH as last name.

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by EmCatlyn
New info

[viii]

2 hours ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

I get that but I still think as an adult with experience in the world, she did have an obligation to understand what she was getting into. And anyone who has read a tabloid anywhere would get that. There are also books she could have read and basic research. And even if she and Kate did not get along, Meghan could still ask her basic questions. 
 

I am going to push back a bit because I don’t think you meant to imply that Kate cannot be a feminist because she chose to get married. If Meghan looked down on that, she is not much of a feminist herself. That is toxic feminism, where one judges cred by choices that don’t mesh with another woman’s choice. Kate chose the life she wanted for whatever reason. She held off on kids until she knew her daughter of born first would be queen, so I am not really sure that is particularly fair. 

To be honest on the PR- I think this mess IS the PR team and they suck. 

For your first bit, that's like saying a first time pregnant woman should read books and research so she's completely prepared and once she's in the thick of it, she can't complain because she did her research. You can research something all you want but it's very, VERY different to actually be living it. People can prepare you all they want with how something will be but until you're actually doing it, you can't determine how you're going to react. 

I'm not saying Kate isn't a feminist for getting married - I was saying she wasn't actually an ideal image for feminism the way she waited around for a decade for William to propose. 

1 hour ago, louisa05 said:

Kate literally lost a job because the press was staking out the building and harassing everyone she worked with. But do blame that on her and not the press that H&M are so concerned about. 
And do ignore all the long term projects she’s worked on. I understand that they’re not as impressive as rising to the heights of feminism by signing a massive contract to do a podcast and making one episode. That Markle work ethic blazing the way for women everywhere to never follow through 

Oh, come on. I like Kate and I can't even defend the half-assed job she had at Jigsaw. Yes, she 'worked' briefly and the press hounded her. I'm not discrediting that statement - the tabloids were AWFUL to Kate and I commend her for the way she handled everything. But let's not fool anyone here - Kate made sure she was available for William's beck and call for a decade. Those are just the facts. 

1 hour ago, Xanariel said:

I think the issue is that they're just very different people. Kate by all accounts is a fairly shy and introverted woman who would have been just as happy with her sister's life - stay at home wife to a rich guy - and whose main friendships date back to her school and uni days. 

I think Kate is also a very guarded person - and with good reason to be. I'm sure she's had plenty of people try to get close to her in an attempt to find out information. She's had to build her support system very carefully around her and we don't ever really hear about her friends in the media - except her friend that William apparently slept with, lol. 

10 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

I am curious what the source for this business about the birth certificate is.  It seems very odd to use a title as a first name.    

I would have thought first name “Henry” was a no-brainer.  He is Henry Mountbatten-Windsor Duke of Sussex.  What you pick for “last name” is open to debate, but first name shouldn’t be confused with title. When Harry and William were in the military, they used “Wales” as their family name, but they kept their “given” names.

I was just thinking the whole Meghan-Harry narrative would make a wonderful Gilbert and Sullivan style operetta.  ?  Much better than the “Finding Freedom” movie is likely to be.

I'm guessing Henry was added in there as well. I looked up Prince Louis' birth certificate for reference and he's listed as His Royal Highness Prince Louis Arthur Charles of Cambridge and William is listed as His Royal Highness Prince William Phillip Arthur Louis, Duke of Cambridge. Meanwhile, Kate is listed as Catherine Elizabeth, Her Royal Highness the Duchess of Cambridge. 

The title must play a part somehow. 

[EmCatlyn]

1 hour ago, viii said:

….

I'm guessing Henry was added in there as well. I looked up Prince Louis' birth certificate for reference and he's listed as His Royal Highness Prince Louis Arthur Charles of Cambridge and William is listed as His Royal Highness Prince William Phillip Arthur Louis, Duke of Cambridge. Meanwhile, Kate is listed as Catherine Elizabeth, Her Royal Highness the Duchess of Cambridge. 

The title must play a part somehow. 

Filling out a US form is different from filling out a British form.  In the US he should have used Henry as his first name.  He did not use Henry any place that I can see. ( link to copy of birth certificate for Lily.)

The US does not use titles, so there is no room for them.  Harry could have filled it out as Henry Sussex (maybe Mountbatten-Windsor as middle name) or Henry Mountbatten-Windsor.  

All of us who have names that don’t follow the standard US style have to make choices about how we fill out US forms. (Not even remotely royalty, but I had two last names per Spanish custom. So I had to decide how to handle my mother’s family name because there is no place for it in US forms.  I tried hyphenating for a while but it was too long, so I dropped down to just my father’s family name.)  You have to adjust to the place where you live.

[EmCatlyn]

I don’t blame Meghan for miscalculating what she was getting into.  I do criticize her and Harry for not acknowledging that the problem was largely with her expectations, not the reality.   

If she had said, “I am stressed. This is not what I expected, and I want to move away before I go nuts,”  I would be very supportive.  Instead, she is blaming everyone else for her problems.  The media was mean.  The Royal Family did not protect her or provide mental health help. The staff was incompetent. Kate made her cry. “No one” was asking her how she was doing.   Harry, who surely could have prepared her better after his own experiences, is also pushing a narrative of victimization that comes across as both entitled and immature.

I guess what bothers me is that while there were obviously things that the royal family could have done differently, there were also things Meghan and Harry could have done differently.  As in a divorce, there is responsibility on both sides, but the Sussex narrative is that nothing Meghan did was wrong and that Harry blames himself for not having “saved” her sooner.  ?

[nelliebelle1197]

54 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

Filling out a US form is different from filling out a British form.  In the US he should have used Henry as his first name.  He did not use Henry any place that I can see. ( link to copy of birth certificate for Lily.)

The US does not use titles, so there is no room for them.  Harry could have filled it out as Henry Sussex (maybe Mountbatten-Windsor as middle name) or Henry Mountbatten-Windsor.  

All of us who have names that don’t follow the standard US style have to make choices about how we fill out US forms. (Not even remotely royalty, but I had two last names per Spanish custom. So I had to decide how to handle my mother’s family name because there is no place for it in US forms.  I tried hyphenating for a while but it was too long, so I dropped down to just my father’s family name.)  You have to adjust to the place where you live.

I am not even sure he should have been legally allowed to use those titles on an American document!  And US or OK or some trash rag had a headline that this kid was "the first American Princess". It is ridiculous on so many levels but mostly because there have been plenty of other American-citizen princesses - Grace, her daughters, Rita Hayworth's daughter Yazmin and many more.

[Coconut Flan]

I'm very surprised he wasn't redirected to Henry whatever Mountbatten Windsor or Sussex or use the Mountbatten Windsor as second name.  Those are his titles he used not his name.  I'm guessing he created a stink so the poor person put it through.  They are definitely not doing themselves any favors and their deeds don't match their words.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Coconut Flan

[viii]

Yeah - I'm surprised any of that was allowed to slide, then. It certainly doesn't help his cause. He keeps saying he was trapped, his brother is trapped, his father is trapped, everyone is trapped inside the terrible monarchy and only he had the guts to fly the coop. But then on his daughter's birth certificate instead of choosing his normal, standard name (since he apparently wants to be *normal*), he goes with HRH Duke of Sussex. 

He literally contradicts himself at every turn. 

[EmCatlyn]

1 hour ago, Coconut Flan said:

I'm very surprised he wasn't redirected to Henry whatever Mountbatten Windsor or Sussex or use the Mountbatten Windsor as second name.  Those are his titles not his name.  I'm guessing he created a stink so the poor person put it through.  They are definitely not doing themselves any favors and their deeds don't match their words.

To be fair, this could have an origin in a perfectly innocent clerical error on the part of hospital staff that didn’t know how to handle a form where Harry or Meghan had filled out his name correctly but then wrote  “His Royal Highness, Duke of Sussex” above the line where the name went.  However, it’s a weird way to have done it.  And even weirder that the Sussexes haven’t corrected it. 

Even if he wants the title on the birth certificate, leaving out his first name is not the way to do it.  Aside from the inconsistency between their claim of wanting the simple life and their obsession with titles, Harry at least should know that HRH is a “style” not a part of his name. ?

49 minutes ago, viii said:

He literally contradicts himself at every turn. 

I have suggested before that Harry isn’t playing with a full deck.   It may be a huge source of concern to his family.

[tabitha2]

Let’s call a spade a spade here.Factually speaking inherited mental and/or emotional problems run way way back on both sides of his family.

[viii]

1 hour ago, tabitha2 said:

Let’s call a spade a spade here.Factually speaking inherited mental and/or emotional problems run way way back on both sides of his family.

Exactly, and majority of the time it’s gone unaddressed and unchecked. 

[louisa05]

8 hours ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

I am not even sure he should have been legally allowed to use those titles on an American document!  And US or OK or some trash rag had a headline that this kid was "the first American Princess". It is ridiculous on so many levels but mostly because there have been plenty of other American-citizen princesses - Grace, her daughters, Rita Hayworth's daughter Yazmin and many more.

Princess Madeline of Sweden gave birth to her oldest child, Princess Lenore in New York. She and her American husband live in Florida with their three children. Quite privately, too.  

[EmCatlyn]

9 hours ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

I am not even sure he should have been legally allowed to use those titles on an American document!   …

I meant to address this in an earlier post, but forgot.  

There is actually no problem with Harry, as a foreign national, using his title in America. It is only if he were to become a US citizen that he would have to give up his title. 

However, forms in the US have no space for titles.  So the attempt to include the title seems to have resulted in the titles replacing the given (first) and family (last) names with the unfortunate result that Lilibet’s father appears to be a guy with the first name “Duke of Sussex” and the last name “His Royal Highness.” (It’s a name worthy of parody.)

Fortunately, California isn’t one of those states that insists a child must bear her father’s last name or Lili would have to be “Lilibet Diana His Royal Highness.” ? 

[Green bean satan]

I started liking Meg, but what made me doubt were her recollections about who paid for college. She says she paid for Northwestern herself, double major, with loans, scholarships and jobs. And joined a sorority. No. That just doesn’t work that way. If you have to take out loans and work several jobs, you cannot possibly have the time and money to join a sorority. Period. 
After that I became more cautious and lo and behold, the duo KEEP CONTRADICTING THEMSELVES. All. The. Fucking. Time. 
No, I don’t believe anything they say, but her hilariously bad acting in the Orca interview kept me laughing for days. 

[nelliebelle1197]

3 hours ago, Green bean satan said:

I started liking Meg, but what made me doubt were her recollections about who paid for college. She says she paid for Northwestern herself, double major, with loans, scholarships and jobs. And joined a sorority. No. That just doesn’t work that way. If you have to take out loans and work several jobs, you cannot possibly have the time and money to join a sorority. Period. 
After that I became more cautious and lo and behold, the duo KEEP CONTRADICTING THEMSELVES. All. The. Fucking. Time. 
No, I don’t believe anything they say, but her hilariously bad acting in the Orca interview kept me laughing for days. 

I think that is unfair and too much of a generalizations. I looked it up. She took out loans and had work study to supplement college tuition and whatever her mom contributed. She talked about it on a trip to Fiji. It is completely normal to have all those things plus a sorority. Work study is not particularly arduous. 

[Green bean satan]

1 hour ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

I think that is unfair and too much of a generalizations. I looked it up. She took out loans and had work study to supplement college tuition and whatever her mom contributed. She talked about it on a trip to Fiji. It is completely normal to have all those things plus a sorority. Work study is not particularly arduous. 

Yes, but she also said her dad paid for college. I don’t know which is right, but she contradicts herself a lot. That does not help. As for the sorority; where I’m from, it’s ridiculously expensive to join a sorority, so maybe that’s different in America. Also, it’s really difficult to work when you’re also doing a double major. Again, maybe that’s different in the USA.

 

[louisa05]

There’s an ongoing movement at Northwestern to abolish sororities and fraternities. In their initial statement to the campus newspaper, they list racism and classism as the first two concerns.  
 

[Coconut Flan]

1 hour ago, Green bean satan said:

Yes, but she also said her dad paid for college. I don’t know which is right, but she contradicts herself a lot. That does not help. As for the sorority; where I’m from, it’s ridiculously expensive to join a sorority, so maybe that’s different in America. Also, it’s really difficult to work when you’re also doing a double major. Again, maybe that’s different in the USA.

The first statement I saw was her dad paying for college and thanking him.  That was before she even met Harry.  I used to watch Suits and would occasionally see bits about the actors.  I wasn't actively following any them so missed a lot of articles.  Meghan has had memory issues with other facets of her history, too.  

Regarding sororities in the US, I think it varies considerably by school so I wouldn't generalize.  It was cheaper for a daughter of mine to be in a sorority and live in the house than to live in the dorms at the northern California university she attended.  I went to a sorority briefing at summer orientation even though I've always been opposed to sororities.  They showed data with the sorority members having higher graduation rates, better grades, and housing being about half the price at this particular school.  I didn't make my daughter join, but suggested perhaps in this case mama would reconsider her opinion and she might want to look into it.  My daughter also double majored, worked her last two years, graduated with honors, and was in various positions in the sorority including rush chair.  She didn't seem stressed by it at all.  

[MomJeans]

2 hours ago, Green bean satan said:

Yes, but she also said her dad paid for college. I don’t know which is right, but she contradicts herself a lot. That does not help. As for the sorority; where I’m from, it’s ridiculously expensive to join a sorority, so maybe that’s different in America. Also, it’s really difficult to work when you’re also doing a double major. Again, maybe that’s different in the USA.

 

I know for certain that being in a sorority at Northwestern, at the time Meghan was there, was pretty expensive.  Could a sorority member find a way to cut financial corners?  Possibly, though things like dues, assessments, and rush recruitment fees are almost non-negotiable.  

The "I worked my way through college" statement by Meghan was to me, classic Meghan murkiness.  It's not technically a lie : I believe she had a work study job while she attended college.  But for those of us who actually self-funded our entire education, "working our way though school" holds a very different meaning.  And I believe Meghan was intentionally trying to imply the latter, but was careful to not actually lie.  

At the end of the day, it's very irksome for those of us who prefer accuracy, but it's impressive from a PR perspective.